Hawk & Badger Railroad Forum

Inspired from a recent post...

Other than water towers and repair facilities, do you place hotels, post offices, breweries, etc?

Which ones and why?

I did when I first started playing, but I just don't find them a good return on invested capital.

I will place a factory near raw material or a business that uses or feeds another local business.

Voted the third option - if there are the resources in the surroundings and I have the money to do so, why not?

If I am playing a scenario that has heavy passenger traffic I place hotels etc in my hubs, its the highest return on capital that you can get in the game and unlike industry, which can become less profitable over time hotels can be real long term money spinners.

I voted depends becuase mostly I just put post offices wherever there is a station with houses. They are cheap and don't cost anything to run, but allow mail to stack up at stations. I find them worth it for the mail that I get to haul.

I generally don't put other amenities since they never pay for themselves within a reasonable amount of time. If a sceanrio has a long term industry profit goal, I may think of them.

Gandar wrote:If I am playing a scenario that has heavy passenger traffic I place hotels etc in my hubs, its the highest return on capital that you can get in the game and unlike industry, which can become less profitable over time hotels can be real long term money spinners.

I'm the same although i tend to place Hotels in any station that has any passenger traffic, more often than not, at the same time I build the station.
Unless it's near the end, or on a short term scenario, then it's not worth it.

It always depends for me as well. I typically don't, as I mainly focus on building up my rail network unless industry profits is a scenario goal. I just let the industry spawn on its own and go from there.

I have had scenarios where $100k hotels provide an annual return of $175k. And they generate passenger traffic. So I very often use them.

JayEff wrote:I have had scenarios where $100k hotels .... they generate passenger traffic.

That's true as well, which people may want to keep in mind when playing my new scernario "the Hub: Pirates" (yep that's a cheep plug!)

I tend ignore hotels and such until I am well into my expansion phase of the game and I'm setting up passenger routes. Then, I start with the highest star cities first (i.e. 5 star city) and place both a hotel and restaurant beside the station in all of them - especially along my passenger route. I work my way down to single star cities. My own rule is that if a city has less than a full star showing, I hold off placing a hotel and restaurant in it. I place them in all the AI cities as well following the same rule.

I come around with Post Offices much, much later in the game when I'm rolling in the money and when I don't care that they show a loss each year. My grandfather was a US mail carrier and I place the POs in all the cities in respect to him.

If the city has a medium sized station, then I place the hotel and restaurant across the tracks from the station. That way I don't crowd the station when it needs to be upgraded later on.

Some games, especially tourist transporting games, have secretly boosted up the profits of hotels and restaurants. In these games, I test the waters early in the game with a single hotel to see what the profits do. If the profits are unusually high, then I place a hotel in a city right after I add the station.

I have found that placing industries in most cases causes the map to generate more industry as well as cities grow faster. Which in turn, improves the bottom line. For instance, if a grain farm is near by, will place a brewery in the city that is in the direction that the crop is migrating. Then in a few years, I upgrade the brewery, even if more grain farms are not in the vicinity. Usually, the map will generate another farm that will feed the brewery with in a few years, and seldom does the industry loose money in the process. In some cases, I will even build the industry and upgrade it, just to sell. I do this with power plants when coal is on the map. Since I usually own all the coal in the area, I make my return on the coal, while the power plant continues to fail. In this case, I will buy the power plant back, when it starts to break even. Now the investors truly get PO'd during this stunt, which also allows me to buy my stock cheap, since they think I am nuts and start dumping stock. I do this, when my dividends are much more then my salary which is pocket money at this point.

Barney wrote: In some cases, I will even build the industry and upgrade it, just to sell.

That's an interesting approach....one that I can't say that I've ever tried. If I remember right, one sells an industry for about half of what they paid for it, not what the current value of other nearby industries go for. In other words, you lose a lot of money on the deal. BUT, I can see the advantage if the loss is compensated by your farms or mines having a steady demand.

I'll have to test this on the next game I play.

Here's a dumb question: Is there any change in the profitability of a hotel/tavern/etc if its placed next to the station compared to several squares away? Or does it only matter if the amenity is anywhere within the green square for the station?

In real life a hotel across the street from a station will get more traffic than one a mile away, but I'm guessing in the game it doesnt matter.

A hotel, restaurant, tavern or post office will be colored green when you are hovering it within range of a station; yellow if it is not in range to serve all stations in that town, and red if something blocks its way.

Profitability is determined solely by whether or not the building is within the proper radius of a station, and by the number of passengers/mail that use it.

I voted "depends". Not because I like to wear them...oh wait, that's a different forum...um, but seriously folks, I don't even think Taverns work. Post offices only cost money (I haven't tried 106 or TM much so I don't know about them; this is strictly the classic 105) but have been some help keeping mail useful; Hotels I build right at the start of a long scenario- otherwise they won't pay off the $100,000 price tag before the game ends. Some passenger rich maps can make a killing- several times building cost in the long run. Restaurants seem more variable, but the payoff is shorter so not a big risk for a moderate return. Both are good for me when industry is part of the medal requirement. I don't think proximity makes any income difference as long as it is in the station shadow, but I have placed some very close to the fringes only to see it not highlight or get listed in station (with the bed symbol for the Hotel, say), even if it seems to be; (or save before placing if you're among those of use more nimble of mind than of hand)- so closer is safer, it also makes it easier to find when eyeballing a crowded city, later.

As to big industries- well, folks, I'm about to commit sacrilege here - I NEVER (well...ALMOST never) build/buy industries if the medal requirement doesn't demand it. I keep hearing people say- build industries right away. OK so where did that money come from? I got the standard $1.1M to put up stations, track, engine(s), water and maintenance; maybe I get the first bond (11% ) and hit stocks for two sales right away and up that to almost $2m. I spend a million on an industry that takes 12-25 years just to pay back the buy cost (because I have few tracks to help it by hauling anything)- how does that help me? There are exceptions- specific plants to change the demand gradient (lumber or meat most commonly) in limited amounts and places, and never in the first 5 years. Once in a while I'll find what in another game setting would be called a "Monty Haul" map and several industries will soar, but it seems like the exception. My hat's off to those who can make it fly.

I usually drop a hotel into a town if I know passengers will have to change trains there, in other words, where one train line ends and another begins. Also into larger cities that by their sheer size produce a goodly amount of travelers and mail.

MisterHinton wrote:I spend a million on an industry that takes 12-25 years just to pay back the buy cost (because I have few tracks to help it by hauling anything)- how does that help me?

A well-placed industry will pay for itself in far less than 12-25 years. For instance, a Textile Mill (cost $1.2 M) will generate ~$250 K/yr if palced in the midst of 2 or 3 Sheep Farms. Likewise for a Lumber Mill (cost $1.6 M). Paper mills can pay for themselves in as little as 4 - 5 years, and that income usually continues for the rest of the game, returning many times the intital investment cost. Of course to make "industry" work, you have to be careful about how you invest your money. It doesn't make sense to float a bond at 11% to buy an asset that is only returning 5-6% on that investment.

Railroad-building returns profits fast, but profits can decrese rapidly, especially early in a scenario when there are few towns connected and demand evens-out between them. Take a look sometime at your Ledger when you're well into a scenario and have a fairly large railroad going (January 1st is a good time to do this). Add up your total investment at that point, including track/station/shed builting cost, loco cost, and track/station/loco maint. cost, fuel cost, and other business costs (overhead, etc.) for the previous year (i.e your total investment for the previous year). Divide that number into your total railroading revenue (Express Revenue + Freight Revenue) and look at your Return on Investment (ROI) for that year. If you're getting more than about 4 - 5% I would be surprised.

The take-home lesson that I've found is that careful investment in industry early on in the scenario pays off in the long run. Late in the scenario, if you need to pump up CBV, then rail expansion is the quickest way to make money. Of course this strategy has to be tempered by the specific requirements/special conditions of a particular scenario, but is one that I use as a basis in most of them that I play.

First, buy the industry. Then build track and start to run raw materials there. Then start to run products out of there. Upgrade industry -> times very many.