K's United States

[Hawk]

The following text is a compilation of what was salvaged from the old Gathering Forum. It contains postings from several different people.
Thanks goes out to Wolverine for putting this all together.

Hawk

K's United States

ok, i've just finished uploading the new version of the united states map, along with an edited readme for this.
the url is: http://www.mizus.com/kraellin/RT3
the map file is: K's_United_States_ver_2g.zip
this includes several of the player requests...sorry, no klamath falls sacramento, omaha, sioux falls and some others were added. parts of the colorado river, rio grande and the river in new york were added, along with part of the columbia. some of those rivers or at least parts of them wouldnt have been truly navigable, but i added them anyways for a bit of balance. some of the regions and cities were adjusted for balance as well. but perhaps the biggest change was in turning the global building density down quite a bit. this results in less resources on the map, which means less cargo to haul, which means the game is a bit tougher now. it will NOT play like an RT2 game now.
i've also added the game goal for both single player and multiplayer of highest company book value at the end of 30 years. if you dont wish to have this in single player, just delete the event or change the little radio button in the event from 'both' to 'multiplayer'. if you wish to not have it multi but do in single, then change it to 'single'.
if you do wish the game to play more like RT2, load the map in the editor and increase the global building density up to something above 150% and this will give you a 'fat' map with lots of cargo.
also, bear in mind, that if you change any setting or do any editing on the map and then save it without changing the file name, you wont be able to play others using this map in multi. it wont sync up. so, it's always best when editing to save as a new file name and keep the original intact.
most of all, have fun
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
excellent, ill give it a go.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nice update.
Like the new cities and rivers.
The global building density was still too high for me, I took it down to 75. I like to start my games in the mid-1800's. I moved Montreal north accross the river. Salt Lake and the city, I moved out of the mountains and into the plain to the west.
One of the things that bugs me about RT3 is the slow turnaround time. So I created an event 3 years in that the haulers my RR put out of business come work for me. If I hire 'em they lower my turnaround by 75%. If I don't, they do something nasty. 10 years in I can hire an engineer who 6 months later lowers bridge building by 50%.
Great map! Especially considering the limited max map size. Keep pushing the envelope! I look forward to your next map.
Many thanks Kraellin. Your first version was becoming my favorite map. I look forward to spending some quality time with the second.
I saved my changes under a different name, so I'll always have yours.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 of us played it in multi last night and i have to admit, the density is still too high, well, at least if dont want it too much like RT2. i was pretty much able to build only rails and do very well. it's better than the first, but maybe still too high for some, though part of that is the randomizer in the seeding of things at the start.
as for locations of certain things, like the great salt lake, the atlas i have and use for reference is not as good as i'd like, so you may indeed find a few things off a bit.
also, be aware that there is a bug in multi that only allows you to play a map to the lowest year setting; in this case, it's 1830. you cant change it in multi. even if you move the date setting in multi it will always come up as 1830. and obviously the u.s. was not this well developed in 1830, so it may seem a bit odd.
and as for montreal, my atlas shows a sort of split in the river there, a ring, with montreal sitting on the south side of that ring, so as far as i can tell, that's correct having montreal where it is.
the one thing that does bug me, though, is that i'm going to have to get a new machine to play this game on. this map is large enough and full enough that it taxes my poor machine rather hard. my frame rates were getting rather poor in that 4 player multi and i ended up losing because i couldnt get the machine to respond fast enough in the market game and got wiped out......yeah, yeah, blame it on the machine, i know
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is nothing wrong with where you put Montreal. I believe it sits on an island in the river. The only reason I moved it was to keep it in Canada. It bleed over too much for my taste. The 7 to 1 problem.
As for multi I still have your orginal. Any modification is for me and maybe my nephew.
I can relate to the machine problems, I tried to show the game to a friend on his machine. Altough within min. specs it crashed twice and didn't run or play the way it should. I can only imagine the problems when multi with 100's of trains.
Thanks again for the map.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I look forward to trying your new map. I used your other US map more than any other map.
My only request would be that you work the trees so that there are some noticeable forests rather than the general spread present on the 1st map. Some of the Poptop maps have trees following rivers, etc. . it looks really nice. However, that small point aside it's a first class map. Thanks for taking the time to make it. It's perfect for open ended games and having all of America to use if great
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yeah, i was sparse on the trees on purpose. it's a big map already and i didnt want to slow it down even more with lots of trees. yeah, i know you can trim this in your settings, but i dont think you can turn it completely off, so i went a bit spartan on the woods.
maybe i'll just reduce the size of montreal in the next (?) version.
also, would anyone be interested in a coast to coast goal for this map, either as an end goal or as a bonus goal? i know RT2 had this as a bonus goal and i'm fairly sure i could include it, at least for single play....maybe even multi.
i'll prolly put out another version of this map later on, but for now, i think i'm going to move on to something else i've wanted to try in the editor.
try the scenic_trip map. it's posted on that site also. some interesting stuff in there.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ok, one last little thing here, when you call up the site, the new map shows the same as the older one. just click on the one with the later date to get the new map.
I have downloaded this one also, and will give it a try.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not just a fine piece of work but a bump to keep this in view. I look forward to evaluating and enjoying.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nice map, there are plenty of awesome ways to lay track, this version2 is much better than the first one, too big cities, that was my almost only complaint in version1, but this looks great.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yeah, i trimmed a lot of things down in this one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I downloaded the "Scenic-View" map. Interesting. Any tips on how to play it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
start at the 'flat' end of the map, around the city there. run some rails out to various groups of farms and mines and drop a large station to encompass these. then run the goods back into the city. try to concentrate on one type at first and buy or build the industries they need. make sure you run your trains such that they'll take the finished goods back out to the folks in the rural areas. remember, farms and mines want stuff too. they are consumers also.
from there, you can diversify a bit so that you're not saturating your market with just one type of item. look around the map and find other things to create market chains with. lots of folks seem to like the milk/cheese combo, but i usually go for logs/lumber/pulpwood/paper as my starting chain, simply because it has more offshoot chain items, like furniture and toys, and then either alchohol or textiles. this will vary somewhat depending on what comes up on the map.
just work what's there. this is actually a good map for learning the cargo/economic system, since it really only has the one city you can connect to early. this forces you to survive on cargo handling and how it works. on my games on this map, i'll often have a little spider web of rails in and around the starting city before ever trying to head to the other city. build up the first city and the surrounding area to give you some good income and cash with which to make the journey across the map.
use the overlay map to find profitable industries and farms/mines and buy them. dont rely on just hauling cargo. industry profits are great for getting you through the rough economic times. and once you've bought a particular industry, support it. industry profits are also tied to selling and moving the finished goods from that industry. if you dont provide an outlet and service that outlet, you wont see as good a profit.
so, after you've got the starting city built up and some cash rolling in, start moving outwards. how you do this is up to you. there's various barriers no matter which way you go, but look for supporting industries and resources as you go and make use of them. i allowed the seeding of the map to place industries outside of cities, so take advantage of those as well.
i believe i only evented a gold win and that's just basically hooking up the two cities. i prolly shld have evented all three type wins and had an amount of cargo hauled from city to city as the silver and gold wins and just connecting the two cities as the bronze. perhaps i'll revise it later on.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WOW! Thanks for the insight.
Actually, that was about the only way I saw to play it, but your info has helped greatly.
I had considered loading it into the editor and making some changes (which I might still do), but I'll look forward to an update from you, if'n you get around to it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hehe, get the maps on my site, listed above, and join us. we usually come in around 6-8 at night (c.s.t.), sometimes later. it's kind of hit and miss at the moment. look for my name and request me on your 'buddy' list. multi is still a bit buggy, but a patch is due soon.
now all we need are fx and rob to complete the package
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gotta buy the game tomorrow night. Been giving the demo a whirl
and must say I like it. Gamespy for mutli? I'll try and make it tomorrow night after I load it up.
Brings back GREAT memories.
Been involved with Europa Universalis 1 & 11 past three years - sweet game.
Cya soon (hopefully tomorrow)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Great maps Krae!
How do you actually play it though? When I load the map, everything is there but nothing happens when I build a station; stays empty.
Ooops! Something does happen. My only train became a bio-thingy and is planting trees everywhere Very cool!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yay!
Figured out how to get it working. Sometimes a ReadMe file should be read Far to complete Krae...I shoulda known....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now I definatelly have to see this map
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes kids, Kraellin makes some amazing maps
He kept us busy and interested in RRT2 and the expansion for a long time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
after playing for about six hours straight (except for caffeine and bathroom breaks), my PC became so bogged down that it was unplayable anymore. There were three AI opponents (two actually did really well...what a surprise!). Anyway, my frame rate was around 80 for most of the game...then went down to 1-3 fps. I had 43 trains running...plus the computer opponent's trains.
I would hate to see what would happen to a person who had an average PC...my specs are as follows:
P4 2.8GHz
1024 GB RAM
128MB video card
160GB HD space
I ended up quitting my game. It's a great map...just wished the game wasn't such a resource hog.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
that's odd behavior. I have Kraellin's map as well (although I'm in the process of adding all major historical events from 1830-present day). And I played it Sunday for over 12 hours straight with no issues, had over 200 trains by the time I went to bed. And my PC specs aren't too far above yours.

P4 HT 3.2GHz
1 GB RAM
256MB Video Card
I wonder if there's a video driver/texture issues?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Kraellin! Nice Map! I luv the readme especially. My poor dog, its a gonner, lol!
Did you create RRT2 maps? I thought I remember a California map with your name on it. If not, well, this US map is well done.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yeah, i made quite a few maps for rt2, though i dont know how many actually got posted anywhere, other than chrispix's site where we had a lot of multi stuff. i've still got most of them somewhere on cd's, i think.
and i've no idea how you got the bio accelerator cars on the u.s. map. i dont think i added them in on that map.
and yeah, this map can be a hog. you prolly need to turn a few of your operating specs down for the game and maybe some background stuff off in windows, especially if it's windows xp. that sucker is a hog all by itself.
and one other note on the bio accelerator cars; if you do use them in a map, beware that they include that graphic animation and can really bog down a machine. i've used them on another map and finally had to turn them off as my pc was stuttering quite a bit with them on. phil likes to throw a few of these little extras into the game for fun and the bio cars are kind of an interesting twist, but they do tend to slow the game down and you cant regulate very easily how many of them show up on a train, so, if your consist is set to say, 7 max cars, plus a caboose, but there are no available cars to load, the train will load 7 bio cars plus a caboose and that means 7 heavy animations running down the track spraying out green :censored: all over the place and having trees pop up right behind. that's a LOT of graphics work. get 2 or 3 or 4 of these suckers running and your machine can easily go from 40 fps to 4.
so, for the most part, the bio cars are kinda interesting to watch once or twice, but mostly i'm not including them in maps. i may do one designed especially for the bio cars, though, just for the heck of it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I should clarify something. The Bio-train showed up when I couldn't figure out how to get the game going; I was running in and out of the editor cliicking anything to get freight to show up...and IT appeared
Now that I'm playing the game as a scenario, the Bio-train has not appeared.
I didn't realize you have to actually go back to the scenario selection screen and CHOSE the map...doh! Not an on-line railroader and no exp with map-mods, this was new to me
sounds like me in most games i play
the bio cars are cute, no?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i shld prolly post a warning about this map for use in multi. this is a very large map and has lots of cities and resources. in a 4 player game, this sucker can bog down in a hurry. we played it last night with 4 folks and within 5 years or so, it was definitely getting hard to lay track and scroll. i strongly recommend the host have a good broadband connection and all players have decent machines on which to play this in multi.
now, this is pre-patch, so hopefully this will get better post-patch. but, beware this may not be the best map for multi.
i may have to make some mods to this for multi; trim the resources and cities or even the map size, if i can find a way to do it without having to start over from scratch.
i'll wait for the patch to come out and test it agin with that before making a final determination on this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kraellin, since you were a beta tester, do you still have an inside when that patch is coming out, or what that patch will fix? BTW, I've noticed the bogging down on your map... but it never crashes like on other maps. Setting the resolution down to 800x600 helps out a lot this map.
Played for 5 hrs straight yesterday on your map... I can't believe how easy it is to start taking over everyone (even the successful AI)! Well placed resources and cities. Very Realistic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just wanted to drop a line letting you know I enjoyed your map - supply/demand seemed to be a bit high on normal - any way for me to make things grow a bit more slowly? thanks and keep up the good work...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you may be happy to know that i just got my hands on an even MORE detailed map of the u.s. VERY detailed shaded relief map! yum!
we still report bugs to poptop, but you're getting the info on patches and stuff just as quickly as we do now. they're posting all that stuff in here and not to us directly, so we're not privy to anything you're not, currently.
and glad the map isnt crushing you
if you wish to cut it back on resources and such, go into the editor and simplest way would be to simply cut down the global build density slider. i forget what i set it to, maybe 140% or something like that. just cut it back to 100% or less and save the map as a new file name (so you can play multi with us on the current version or in case something goes haywire). if you wish to adjust a certain region or re-balance the game, use the cities/regions building densities to adjust to your own tastes. just beware, the ai may have more troubles with a lower density, as he tends to not use industry building to help him survive, so the ai may struggle a bit more with lower densities or fewer cities.
and yeah, me and habs is old buds from RT2. tell him he needs to guard his stock more, though i'm also assuming the Paradox forum is the EU forum he speaks of, yes?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thanks for the input - and yeah, the Paradox board is the home of the EU board Habs spoke of...
a Q for ya - if I drop the density thingy down to say 100% would it help the AI if I increased their starting cash (saw this suggestion in another thread)?? or would it not really have any effect?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the way the ai works and what it seems to like in order to start a company, was explained by phil somewhere in a thread, so, i'd find that for the source information. my own experience pretty much matches what he said. the ai likes cities kind of close to each other before it starts.
what the building density does for the ai, doesnt have a thing to do with it starting a company, or mostly not. what the density does is increase cargo available to haul, so it helps the ai survive better with more cargo on the map. he wont go broke as quickly, and often even survives well.
so, yes, giving the ai more starting cash would compensate. you'd want to balance it pretty closely so that the ai can 'get over the starting hump' that all new railroads seem to face, but it shld work.
also, if you know the ai likes to start in a particular region, like one almost always seems to start in amarillo on my u.s. map, you can alter the individual region building densities to compensate for the global density being less. this building density has 3 levels to it, global, regional, and city. it makes adjusting and tweaking and balancing a lot easier.
oh, and habs told me that some of the EU guys were 'migrating' over here.... Welcome to our world! may you live long and ....well, give up your railroads to me
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
give my railroad to ya? never... however, everything has a price
as for the density - perhaps your idea of selective city density increases would work better than extra cash... I may play around w/that
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i'd be interested in what you come up with.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Great map. I thoroughly enjoyed playing it after the patch with some competitive AI players. Had fun trying to crush them.
My only wish/complaint is the lack of rubber. In RT2 I never seemed to be able to make autos as there was always something missing in the chain...usually tires/rubber. You do have some ports producing rubber on this map, but it is very, very limited. I may tinker with the editor (I know nothing about it atm) and see if I can't have two ports that bring in mucho rubber...
Thanks for giving to the community!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I managed to crash the game with this map for the first time.
After taking over the entire eastern half of the map I decided to wipe out the one rail company that was making any money.
My "screw over the AI" strategy involved me breaking all links between my stations and theirs, setting up competing stations with better track, and just letting them die.
However, in the course of me bulldozing my Kansas city station & track, the sole link between my opponent and I, the game crashed to desktop.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Had fun playing with the editor. Doubled the amount of rubber coming in...hopefully I can get those autos going now. Interesting that you have port weightings for three cities that are too far from water to get ports (Montreal was one; I can't remember the others) Would warehouses do the same thing?
I added three events so that the annual briefing would report the year into the game (ie: out of 30), your current CBV, and if your company currently has the highest book value. The briefing screen looked far to empty without them....
Thanks again! I've been posting links to your map every time I see someone lamenting the missing USA map
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yeah, i noticed the thing about the ports too in the general validation. the odd thing is that i turned off the ports for at least one or two of those cities and i still get the validation error. and i think i fixed the one in montreal...i think. i'd have to look again. and yes, you could just replace the ports with the appropriate warehouse.
yup. all sorts of events one could add on that map. i made this available about the time that folks were complaining about not having open-ended games and there not being any usa map, so i just shipped it out the door. feel free to add whatever you like
and yeah, we need some sticky threads here to direct folks to the maps being made available. one stickied for all map listings. and thanks
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you gave me the idea of adding events - I've started a new thread and would appreciate your help along w/Kraelins and anyone else who wishes to throw in their 2 cents worth...
http://www.gathering.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16206
I've looked over some events frome existing scenerio's and they seem to be a good place to start but the shear number of effects & triggers available just scream out for more events that have good & bad effects and that would add lots of playabilty and flavour to K's US map for a time period of say 1800 - 2004
whether this yeilds any fruit or not we'll have to wait and see....
perhaps someone has already done this? if so, can you point me to it...
thanks
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Am enjoying playing your U.S. map especially the Texas-Okla area.
Question:
How many oil derricks/wells should pop up when playing the Tex-Okla area?
Thx
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i added a few more ideas to your new thread about events for this map. good idea.
glad ya like it and there is no set number of oil wells that shld pop up. it's just 'seeded' with a certain percentage and the game itself determines how many will actually pop up based on those relative seeds. if you want more, or fewer, go into the control panel in the editor and find the appropriate region and change the seed weightings to your taste. just remember, these are relative values and not absolutes, so it may take a few tries to get it how you want it.
btw, just for trivia's sake, the bandwidth used on downloading that map so far in november is about 2 gigs, meaning about 6 or 700 downloads of the u.s. map. seems somebody is enjoying it
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet so few ppl posting here to tell you how much they enjoyed it...
Are you doing any more work with that map event-wise or are you done with it? If so, any other maps on the horizon?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i'm afraid this is almost always the case in forums and downloads. you tend to get a response of about 1 in 100, good or bad. it's prolly even more exaggerated for folks like poptop who make the games. 1 in 1000 maybe?
i doubt i ever 'finish' a map. i just reach stages where it seems acceptable to show it to others so, yeah, i'll prolly come back to it eventually. and others are already modding it, so maybe we'll see some versions from them as well.
as for new maps, i've got 3 which i've been working on. one is almost strictly for multi and we've tested several versions online already....still needs work. and i posted a screen shot from one i'm working on. it's in this forum in the 'coming attractions' thread. that one is almost exclusively single player. and i've another that's really quite bizarre and may take quite a while yet. this last one i'm not sure whether it's single player or multi or neither. it's kind of a strange 'map' and may not be worth playing at all, but shld be worth a download nonetheless
and then there's all the bits and pieces i've started here and there and those that are still in my head. just bear in mind that i tend to like the unusual. the u.s. map was done out of necessity when i found poptop hadnt included one. so, most of my maps tend to be of not real locations and have some quirk or oddity or feature which you may not see on other maps. the 'scenic trip' map falls into that category because of the volcano and waterfalls.
i'll also say it again here, my hat's off to poptop for this editor. it's really a LOT better than the RT2 one. so give them a nod, as well, each time you see a map you like
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you Kraellin in advance. I would have been really annoyed if I discovered there was no USA map in the game and no way of playing one. I bought the game hoping to create some transcontinental lines in the US. I should have the full game by this weekend and I will immediately download your map. Your efforts will be greatly appreciated by me and Pop Top should cut you a check for doing what they should have done in the first place. Surely they must recognize that the US is probably their biggest market and people naturally relate to where they live. If supply and demand are in balance, the USA map would find it's way into the game (perhaps using a wagon). I plan on playing all the maps but will play your map first. Thanks, thanks, thanks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well, you're welcome, in advance
in all fairness to poptop re the u.s. map, this is a LARGE map, and a resource hog. and it shld actually be larger, by all rights. poptop has done an excellent job of trimming and tweaking this 3d engine to where it can run on machines that really prolly shldnt be running it. i was quite amazed at the minimum specs for a machine that this thing is supposed to be able to run on. but i'm also fairly sure that these large maps would more or less 'break the bank' on a smaller machine. we've played this map in multiplayer and it pretty much bogs EVERYONE down, no matter how fast their machine and cable connections are. it's a large map, with a lot of cities and a lot of resources. a 500 mhz machine is going to go ka-chunk, ka-chunk in short order with something like this.
btw, i could make this map even larger now. i've successfully loaded height maps into the editor that make this seem like a small wooland park. though, i start losing texture pages at a certain point. i'm gonna need an amd 64 fx with an ati 9800 pro pretty soon....maybe poptop would send me a check for that as 'payment'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just downloaded your map and will give it a try. I find the more I play RRT3, the less I like it and I'm hoping the right map might make a difference. If not, I'm pretty much through with this game. My favorite RRTII map was Heartland, but I am fed up with RRT3's Mississippi Valley.
So far, I think the new 3D engine has gone to waste.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well, i kind of doubt that my one map is going to pull the fat out of the fire for you re this game, no matter how good or bad it is. i remember heartland. it was a good map. i'd suggest that that being your favorite map in rt2, you might want to lower the building density on my map by quite a bit. the heartland map was somewhat tough, iirc, and my u.s. map is actually pretty easy, so you might want to cut down the resources on the new u.s. map, if that's your thing.
and as for the new 3d engine 'has gone to waste', well, ok, such is your consideration. i do suspect that poptop isnt quite done yet, however, in creating this game. that it hasnt yet met everyone's expectations is really no great surprise. they had so much to do in X amount of time, and crammed everything they could into the game during that amount of time and even had to go a tiny bit over their deadline to do that. i suspect there's more to come yet. we've already seen one patch and know another is coming. jump ship if ya wanna, but i wanna stick around and see the rest of the show. i've found the first part quite interesting and am already anticipating seeing more of it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Really, I though you can only download height maps that are 769 x 769 max, even though 1024 x 1024 maps can be made from scratch . Am I missing something?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well said Kraellin! I haven't gotten close to exhausting what this game has to offer at this point... and I look forward to what more will be added.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i wasnt necessarily talknig about from the mapbuilder utlity. and i believe the editor was patched to accept larger file sizes now....at least i can put them in mine. the most recent i loaded was 2049 x 1153, and that was into the editor. the thing scrolled around at a snail's pace and had areas blanked out because my vid card and extra memory (512) couldnt handle it all. so, it didnt seem to scale the grayscale map down at all.
and i'm fairly sure the mapbuilder could always handles larger sizes, but it was recommended that they not be used in the game after a certain size, the 769 x 769. i think a lot of this depends on your machine specs also. on my current machine, i shld prolly stay away from anything larger than 1024 x 1024, for instance.
from what i can see of the computer gaming industry, you have a project you want to do and set a deadline in which to do it. you start with a basic concept and then do some design work, and start you artists in doing mock-ups and so on, first drafts and maybe outline a bit of coding, but there's almost always lags when coding has to wait for artists, or artists have to wait for coding. when you hit your deadline, you try to ship what you've got and hope it's acceptable and then get folks moving on a new project. but there's always patches and expansion packs for any successful game, but there's also things other folks can be doing for a new game...new art, new music and so forth, that isnt dependent on the coders. so the coders can often spend a bit of time polishing up the work that HAD to ship (or we dont eat), and doing some extras that were wanted but couldnt get in the first release. this is actually pretty typical any more in the computer software industry. get the thing out the door so we can continue to pay rent, get others started on a new project, and polish up the product that just shipped with patches and expansion packs and user-wanted features. and this varies quite a bit from company to company.
generally, if you find the devs on the boards, responding verbally to feedback from their customers, you're going to see improvements at some point. i've seen this many times before and have worked with several software companies in the feedback area or beta test area and almost 1 for 1, if the devs are communicating with their public, then you're going to see some support of products already shipped. add to that that poptop already has a track record of doing this, and i've little doubt that we'll see some more good stuff done for this game and game engine. it aint easy going from 2d to 3d; the headaches arent just two-fold, they're exponential.
at any rate, El, i wasnt really directing this to you, you know i'm just up on my soapbox here, handing out pablum to the masses , so excuse me for using you as a focal point
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well Kraellin you must have a different editor to everybody else because when I still grab tga files from the map builder that are bigger than 591 thousand pixels they are automatically scaled down, The editor in my version of RT3 still automatically scales down so no map can be bigger than 769 x 769 or any height or length combination not exceeding 769 x 769 even now and I'm using patch 1.02 by the way.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" i'm just up on my soapbox here, handing out pablum to the masses"
Here we go again. Anyone with higher expectations than you evidently have are likened to babies who need to be coddled. Others just refer to them as "whiners" - same offense. It is going to take a lot more tham pablum to satisfy customers who expected more and better.
The fact is that this game does not come close to the excellent standard set by RRT II and is not even currently playable, by my standard, with it's terribly distorted terrain grade problem. Your map, I'm sad to say, seems just like all the others in that respect. And if it were not already difficult enough to approach Indianapolis (Mississippi Valley map) with its mountain ranges nearby (everybody knows Indianapolis is in the mountains, right?), you will surely have plenty of red and purple in your track once you start placing buildings. This is just flat out unacceptable and should be a top priority for the next patch.
Once you get past the initial excitement of the new 3D engine, this game is a lot of frustration and is almost none of the stategic challenge that made its predecessor so great. I'm doubly frustrated because now when I go back and play RRT II, I have seen firsthand the features that could have made it the perfect strategy game.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wrote: Just downloaded your map and will give it a try. I find the more I play RRT3, the less I like it and I'm hoping the right map might make a difference. If not, I'm pretty much through with this game. My favorite RRTII map was Heartland, but I am fed up with RRT3's Mississippi Valley. So far, I think the new 3D engine has gone to waste.
This is a thead from a gamer in the community who has created a TREMENDOUS resource for us all to use. Pretty much every post here has been from excited and/or grateful people. You didn't even wait to see the map before being negative. You had to bring your negativity in, and moreover, hinge your future experience with RT3 on Kraellin's map. If it wasn't a game-changer, in your opinion, you would give up on RT3.
Now you're back and, in my opinion, at this point you ARE whining. There are other threads to discuss why you don't like the game, but you have to talk about it here. Guess what? The people reading this particular thread don't want to hear it. They're looking for more maps because they LIKE the game. Your routine is getting old. You can say there are SOOOO many problems with the game, but interestingly enough, your viewpoint doesn't reflect the entire RT3 community. Many, many people are happy with the game as is; others want minor changes. You, my surly reader, are unhappy with not only the implementation of the game (ie: you don't like how the terrain and other features interact) but also its ethos (ie: the economic and cargo engine). No patch will change that. In the future, get a download manager and try the demo first. Or, if that's too much effort for you, get it from a gaming magazine demo disk (even though I know you don't believe in reviews, the disk will save you the download time).
If you're done with the game, why are you back here? I won't miss your attitude when you're gone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your perfect strategy game not mine. I have no doubts the grade problems will be patched. If not so what? That makes it unplayable?
Want to play RT2? Go in the editor and wipe out all the industries, you'll need to keep the ports for weapons and ammunition demand. The raw materials now have no place to go unless the player builds an industry. It will LOAD every time. Supply chains almost like RT2. I found these mods dull as dirt, but to each his own.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can talk about what I want to in ANY thread I choose. If my posts bother you, then don’t read them. I’m sick and tired of hearing YOUR whining drivel.
Get this through your thick skull. I would be saying the same things whether or not I downloaded and tried the demo first. I have been enthusiastically playing Railroad Tycoon for ten years and looked forward to many more years with a new and even better version. I’m not pissed because they have my 50 dollars – I’m disappointed that the new game is a step backward from RRT II in some major areas.
And don’t give me any more crap implying that the whole RRT community is happy with the game as it is. They’re not, and there has been a multitude of messages here voicing that. No go play with your tinker toys.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well, i'm fairly sure the grayscale map i imported wasnt scaled down when loaded into the editor, but that was not one from the mapbuilder. the mapbuilder doesnt use grayscale, but rather an rgb sort of map in color and i'm not sure, actually, if it does scale these down. i'll have to check.
the other thing i'm finding when using raw dem maps, is that you have to do a LOT of smoothing and height reduction to get the maps to come out the same way the mapbuilder utility does them. not sure why. maybe the resolutions.
somewhere in all that vitriol you seem to be making a point that not everything you needed or wanted was included in the game. i agree. and the real point of my response, is that you may still get it and that i also hope we do. if you wish to discuss what that is, then fine. if not, then the hell with ya.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it's any consolation it took me 5 days of playing to appreciate the 3D engine... it dawned on me this morning that I was now navigating better than in RRT2... but I really did not like it at first and the angle of attack still irritates me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was the “pablum” comment that rubbed me the wrong way and then El Tea’s familiar plea for political correctness, sugar, spice, and everything nice that really pushed a button. I have lost patience for his brand of intolerance of open and honest dialog on forums such as this. I have watched his ilk almost completely squash any honest criticism of Microsoft’s last three flight simulator products, the not at all surprising result of which is that Microsoft has refused to issue ANY badly needed updates for the last two. I give PopTop a lot of credit for discussing the problems here, as Microsoft will not even do that.

Anyway, you sound like a reasonable man. If you agree that the problems with terrain grades and placing of buildings drastically changing them is a high priority for improving this game, then we certainly have some common ground.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I understand about the angle. I wish it were linearly adjustable like the turning is. But having said that, I liked the 3D engine immediately. When I go back to RRT II now, my first instinct is to try to zoom in and out and turn as I’ve gotten used to doing in RRT3.
Anyway, I like the 3D engine, the weather, and the days and nights – it all combines to give the game a “live” and “real” feel that RRT II doesn’t have. The clear solution is to combine the great strengths of each game into one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The more I work with the editor the more I love this game. There are things that I could never do in RT2 that make the game so great.
But map making is not easier, its harder because all the little things you can put in a map. I've been working on a map for the last 4 days and I've just finished all the rivers and 3 of 5 mountain passes.
(Trying to accurately locate the Old Faithful geyser [for the steam object] has taken about half an hour.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
it would seem you're right. i went back and checked that map i thought was so large and found it had reduced down to 769 x 769. so i stand corrected. that does seem to be the limit of the editor at the moment.
the pablum reference was a sort of inside, mocking of self, and meant as a joke. i tend to sometimes get up on a soapbox at times in other forums and post some rather long-winded posts as if i were 'preaching to the masses', so...bad joke
as for terrain grades, my number one wish list item in beta was a grading function/tool. hands down, no question, number one item. make it cost a fortune if needed, but that's what i wanted. what was done seems to have been make it easier for trains to climb grades thus reducing the effect of all these little red areas in the grade that drive us all nuts. so, ok, poptop compromised on that one. i dont quite know why phil did it this way, maybe a time consideration or a difficutly with an algorithm (sp ?) or that he didnt want folks not using tunnels and bridges...i dont know, but i still want a grader blade.
yeah, the dropping of buildings and their effect on terrain needs some work. lol, you shld have seen them in beta. i've got a couple of screenshots with trains rising out of the ground or climbing over bridges and two trains teter-tottering on a sharp rise. so things do get improved. that poptop has already put out one patch and is promising another makes me think we'll see some more refinements of the track and terrain system.
and as for el tea's comments, you did kinda fly off the handle there, bubba, over my 'pablum' crack, ya know?
i cant point to a single computer game that has EVER come out with every thing i expected or wanted (and i own way too many of them). but i also recognize the tremendous amount of good work done on this game. the deadline came. things had to be wrapped up. it happens. that folks want more and want fixes, well sure. nothing wrong with that. but there's also a certain reality to this stuff too. there's only going to be so many patches and so many expansion packs and i can guarantee it's not going to be everything everyone could want from this game. we've already got a rather large division in this community over the game being a trains sim or a tycoon sim and which way we shld push to get more of what's wanted. i'm actually quite surprised someone hasnt started a poll and tried to organize the wish list priorities. that might even help poptop decide what to improve.
but ok, this is sooooo far off topic now, that i'm dropping it in here. if ya wanna start a new one devoted to this topic....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
About the landscape grading tool. It does seem odd or backward from the railroading standpoint that the only thing in the world (game) that doesn't grade the ground is the track. But I guess this is the only way an undo will work.
They probably should have made some sort of foundation skin for buildings that extended from the bottom of the building whereever it was placed to the ground skin.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, as I said, I took your pablum crack to mean that in your mind you were addressing babies (the consumers of pablum, after all). And, as such, I didn’t “fly off the handle”. I didn’t have the benefit of your further explanation at the time. I’m not sure I get the “joke”, but if you say you were mocking yourself, I’ll take your word for it. I will continue to speak up wherever I see folks who voice legitimate concerns and criticisms attacked junior-high school style with “Whining” or “Whaaaaaaaaaa” or anything similar.
I started a new game last night using the Southeastern US map and hard difficulty. I seem to be doing better than in previous attempts, but have played 12 years out of 15 and can’t for the life of me see how I will even get a silver. But I’m expanding almost geometrically now, so maybe I’ll be able to accomplish more than I envision. I’ll have more to say after I’m done.
Thanks for your time and effort spent on map-making. I wish I had the time to learn to do it, but I think it is going to take retirement for that to happen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It worked for me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i prolly shld have put the pablum reference in quotes. would have made more sense then, perhaps.
at any rate, back to topic. i've been trimming the u.s. map again. i'd like a version that can be played in multi. i've cut the overall building density and trimmed a couple of cities out (including montreal. sorry bout the nukes). i've added a couple status events to show the leader in book value and the first 4 player's company book value. and i've done a little grading on the west coast to make things a bit easier for a company starting there. the scale of the map does tend to erase some narrow access ways, so this only seemed fair. montreal is gone, birmingham is gone, evansville is gone and a few more. i've also cut the goal down to 20 years instead of 30. starting money is now back to $100k instead of $150. this shld all ease the number of trains, especially in the early game and thus make the map a bit easier on network play. i've also changed the AI to be aggressive on track expansion and stock buy-back.
i've still to test it online, so it's not quite ready for release. if and when we can play it online without bogging everyone down, i'll release it. it's a LOT more draining of resources to have 4 very aggressive real players than 8 or 10 AI players in single player.
and just as a side note, my friend who lends me the server space for these maps, has just informed me that this file is the current leader in downloads off his server with about 2.6 gig's worth of bandwidth consumed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
it works just fine for me. i just tried it directly from clicking on the link in your post. you may be timing out or something?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kraellin, I experienced that the winning conditions are not properly interpreted in your map (though I doubt that the fault is on your side)
Starting in 1830 (expert), I soon ruled the whole midwest sector by taking over one opponent, and as the majority stockholder of the other. I was simply the boss. Then I resigned (not without laying some crafty traps for the successor CEO ) and started a new company beyond the mountains, in the west coast area. So, when the 30y had passed, the company with the biggest book value wasn't mine anymore, but I got the gold medal, undeserved.
(meanwhile my former giant company had addes some 150 trains to the 40 I left behind, so the game grew more and more instable and crashed finally...)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i think we had that bug in rt2 also until a patch fixed it. you might wanna report that somewhere other than this thread. i kinda doubt poptop comes in here any more, what with this flame war going on. and yeah, that's not something i can fix, other than changing the gold win to something else. and i kinda want to leave it at company book value, cause that's what it was on this map in rt2. but thanks for pointing this out
and seriously, would you post that as a bug, like maybe in that thread that phil posted about what's in the new patch?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just want to thank Kraellin for a great map to start railroad empires on!
It did get me interested in modifying the maps. Is there a guide anywhere out there on doing this? I'm a complete newbie at this, not having played RRTycoon II, but having loved RRTycoon 1 since it first came out. (I went out and upgraded my computer so I could play RRT3, and it's been worth every cent, especially with the Kraellin map)
I tried adding in Green Bay and Lake Winnebago to Lake Michigan, and so far have created some kind of unholy canyon with water shimmering at the bottom, but nothing like the gorgeous lakes by Kraellin!
I'm particularly interested in this area as I lived there for a while (Appleton), and would like to make routes to all the places I've lived, and some scenarios with winning conditions being re-creating the great routes - The Empire Builder, the Southwest Chief, The City of New Orleans, etc.
But most of all, thanks again Kraellin for giving me a US map to play anywhere I want on!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Uh-oh - I just found the RRT3 map-making forum. Sorry for wasted post...
But love that USA map!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
it's responses like yours that keep me producing more and yours shld keep me going for at least another month, all by itself
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd like to add my thanks too. Its definitely my current favourite over all the maps that came with the CD. It's big enough that you can come at it from so many different directions, and thats good for long term enjoyment.
Now, I just have to finish doing my own litte version of continental Australia, and I will be a happy littel RRT3 player.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
boy, i shld be charging for this thing
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ok, i posted the original u.s. map mostly for single players, and particularly for those that wanted an open game. i then posted a revision that was trimmed down a bit and spruced up a bit, also, mostly for single players.
i'm now working on a new version which is for both single players who want events and goals and for multiplayer players who want a map that wont bog down under the network load. this new one is loaded with events, though not what you may think in many cases. i recently discovered some new applications for things i already knew and it's going to significantly change how this map works. i'm still testing and tweaking and the game balance is very important on this one, so it's going to take a while and there's a couple things i have to work out yet, but this will be a radical change from most scenarios you're currently playing. i'm not going to say more than that for now
i'm also improving the graphics a bit here and there and may alter a few other visual and game-play map features.
and just in case this whole thing backfires on me and i cant get any of it to work.... i didnt say a thing. you didnt hear this here, and i'll deny the entire thing and edit this post out
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
boy, almost a month since i bumped this thread.
well, the new version is almost done. i've been testing it a lot and it's starting to look pretty good. LOTS of changes! and i managed to work out pretty much everything i wanted to work out. i ran one test last night and even the 3 AI companies in the game all survived. no promises, but i might be able to have this new one up fairly soon. i still gotta test it 'under load' with lots of AI in the game and would be nice to test it in multi too, but that may have to wait for a bit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Put lots of oil wells in Texas & Okla--for us oil patch people.
Thx for your hard work!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
time to bump this up again. i'm still getting 4 or 5 hundred downloads a month on this, so, time to bump it up again.
also, the new usa scenario has gone a bit bonkers on me and i'm still trying to tame it. one cute side effect to this thing going bonkers, however, is that now the AI is often kicking my butt, so i may just release it as is just for that but $29,000,000 for a 5 car load of corn is just a bit much
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
whelp. this thing is on hold. something i'm doing with events is really screwing with the economic model. i'm still getting price differences in the MILLIONS. the price of an item in one area might be $400, but two regions over it might be $1079k. quite odd. i'm apparently going to have to start stripping out events and find which of these is affecting the demands so much. i never envisioned this thing taking this long and it's really quite maddening. i've also run into a number of bugs in the event stuff and had to do some work-arounds. i may just have to wait for the 1.04 patch or start the whole thing over from scratch. i'm also beginning to believe the RT2 method for events might have been better. just write a script and be done with it all this fancy interface stuff seems to be limiting what you can do. bummer.
ah well, back to the salt mines.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phew!
After all that I'm glad to hear its still a work in progress; I would've pitched it aa long time ago.
Thanks Kraelin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i have, a couple times ;)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kraellin, maybe you have a price increase event that is supposed to be one time only but you didn't x the one time only box. That happened in the Iraq beta - after two events the diesel price dropped to zero, auto and military paraphernalia spiraled upwards. Also you can check the debug windows while playing to help track down the problem. You can see the price modification effects and how many times a given event has fired.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any update on the map? also i was wondering if it was possible to add in more canadian and mexican cities? I dont see why not heh
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
that's entirely possible. i go over and over the events but still havent found any really odd looking things. what i'm going to do is just start stripping out events till i hit the one or ones that are doing this and then evalute from there. pain in the arse, but dont see much other way to do it now.
nope. wont be any mexico or canadian cities. the map is quite large already and it originally had a LOT more u.s. cities. i trimmed a lot of those because the map was bogging down under any sort of load, and since the focus of this map was the usa, adding the other country's cities is just too much. maybe if i do a north american map, ok? ....if.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you get a big kiss! i turned all my setup events into 'one time event' s and the wild fluctuating prices went bye bye! apparently there is some sort of bug in there (or i'm just doing something wildly wrong), because every event that was set for 'start of scenario' was screwing things up....well, at least one of them...somewhere. apparently, something was being multiplied over and over and over even though it shld, by my way of thinking, have only done it once because it was a 'start of scenario' event. but apparently it isnt working that way, either because of a bug, or because the 'start of scenario' is doing something i dont know about when calculating certain things.
at any rate, setting it to one time event has cured it!
now, if i could just get this other one to actually trigger consistently, i'd be very nearly done with this pain. this other one's got to be a bug of some sort too. it's set up to check on a monthly basis for a certain month and it's set up exactly like 4 others. the 4 others work fine, but for some odd reason when this one triggers, why, the next year it doesnt 'untrigger'. it's one of those simple if game variable3 = 0, then trigger, but if game variable3 = 1, then dont trigger. now, when the time for it to check rolls around, game var3 is always 0. always! yet, if the random number comes up at a certain value or below, this one event wont trigger though it's supposed to. but the really odd part is that sometimes it does. and then it sets game var3 to 1 and all is well. quite odd.
and along with this last one, it also changes some productions and prices, but all these industies end up having 0 demand anywhere! all demand just drops to 0 and refuses to change no matter what other events are telling it to do. so again, quite odd. and again, i suspect there's a bug somewhere in this event stuff doing it. 5 events, all set up the same, yet one of the 5 does screwy things and the prices on the industries all drop to 0 and refuse to ever rise again.....i'm losing my hair fast.
so, thanks jayeff! at least one of the problems is fixed :)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you have one event that is similar to the others but it doesn't work and it's making you crosseyed trying to find the reason try this:
- delete the event
- make a copy of one that works
- to the copy make the one or two changes needed to reconstruct the event
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yeah, i thought i'd done that once, but i'll try it again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i deleted the first event in the series like you suggested. at first, i thought that fixed it, but during the next test all was going well for a few years and then the event failed to trigger again. in pausing the game and going into the editor and looking at the debugging, game variable 3 (gv3), the one being used in the event, had failed to trigger. where it shld have been reading as a 1, it was still at 0. now, trust me when i say that i've gone through all the events in this to make sure there are no lingering conditions where gv3 would or shld still be at 1 and thus keep the event from occurring. basically, if gv3 = 0 then the event shld trigger and if gv3 = 1 then it shld be passed by, but what seems to be happening is that the game is 'bouncing' over the event completely and not checking for gv3's status and thus it comes to the time to check the event and gv3 is 0 and the event shld trigger, but the game isnt even checking for it or something.
now, knowing i can miss things, i'll be going back and re-checking this stuff again, but i'm beginning to believe there's something amiss here in the way that events get checked.
i've also figured out, to some extent, why i was getting such big price differences in certain cargos, but have to do some more figuring there also. i've managed to cut these down a bit, but still getting some of it. the game is very sensitive to changing anything related to cargo and prices and small changes can have big impacts.
ah well, back to the salt mines.

[OilCan]

I've revisted the 'K' series of games recently (Kraellin's games). These games have a different kind of charm to them which I enjoy. Yes, they are kind of easy to to get gold in (some don't have any ending), but that in itself is a charm because you can relax as your build your empire. You're not huffing and puffing to get a medal - which I enjoy but not in every game. K's games give you time to toy with the AIs, build up complex industry strings (he uses some 1.06 industries in his USA game), and you can start several different railroad networks around the map to join up later. Mostly, you have time to watch your trains. These are great games to learn the ways and wiles of AIs because Kraellin ususally sets the AI on moderate. However, on his West Coast game they are on aggressive...and James Hill was continually chasing me in stocks for control of my company. Yikes. I recommend any of K's games for the makings of an enjoyable Sunday afternoon.

[Sugus]

Yes - K's maps are really exciting! The first one I did was "K's Scenic Trip", which required to connect two cities only - great fun! Meanwhile, I've got Gold with "K's Big Cliff" and "K's Grand Bay", but I think that there are still more K's to do!

[RayofSunshine]

Hey Hawk, I found it all by myself. LOL

And Rick, I was right. Being an older scenario, there was a thread already started.

Now unless you want to read all the previous threads, I will give you a breakdown of the concept of this scenario. Not necessarily a strategy, but some of the pit falls, as everyone has their own system of play to win the GOLD.

This scenario only has 1 medal, and that is the GOLD. It is a simple scenario, as all you have to do is have the "highest CBV" to win. Well don't let that fool you. The option is to compete against as few as 2 or as many as 12 AIs. All will give you a GOLD. And it does not matter how many AIs you select as opponents, there is always at least ""1"" which will lay track all over the map, and thereby accummulate revenue at a goodly rate.

Now I have played this scenario from Medium to Expert, and a number of differnt AIs for opponents, so the Gold is possible. It is just a matter of basically being as aggresive as the AIs.

OH. When I played the 12 AIs, there are basically only 3 to 4 which don't liquidate. Hence you can use their depots, although I rarely ever use their tracks.

Give it a try as I believe you will find it both a challenge and enjoyable.