Hi Everyone,
I finally was able to put my new Scenario up after working on it for a few years and wanted to post this message to gather any feedback, both positive and negative. Make sure you have a powerful enough computer and video card because this map is big and has alot of features.
I am already thinking about some changes I want to make. One issue that I am trying to work through is that the AI does not like to build into New England or even NYC, or I should say very rarely. He did build from SYR to BOS to connect with me one time. I was test playing the Northeast alot so it really never came to my attention before. If anyone has any ideas how this can be recitified, I would appreciate it. Right now I am testing a modified map without the Hudson River thinking this may be the hangup. I noticed a similar issue with Portland, Or to Tri-Cities area. I may need to flatten things a bit up the mighty Columbia river. Then perhaps the AI will be inclined to connect to the upstream cities.
I will probably be putting out another version sometime in the future. Here are some of the ideas I am trying or thinking about implementing. Also, I will consider requests that you may have in mind...
-Get the AI to build into New England and NYC area, same with Portland Or to Tri Cities, etc.
-Increase cost to access Mexico and Canada, currently 300k and 500k? Thinking about making them 900k and 1500k. Maybe higher?
-Put restrictions on how much track the human player can lay at a particular time? Perhaps similar to how buying industry is handled.
-Maybe redo the rivers, add Susquehanna and few others?
-Do something about the big cash buildup. I had like 34M once and was trying like heck to merge but just wasn't working out. More tax man?
-Some of the engines really hurt the AI like the Eight Wheeler and Ten Wheeler to a lesser extent. But this is only for a few years.
I will stop here for now and post more when they come to my attention.
~howdi
North America - Early Discovery
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Wolverine@MSU
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Re: North America - Early Discovery
where can we find the scenario? You can upload it as an attachment to one of your posts.
Re: North America - Early Discovery
Try the map archives, as announced in the scrolling ticker at the top of the forum. 
http://hawkdawg.com/rrt/rrt3/map_arch/r ... merica.htm
http://hawkdawg.com/rrt/rrt3/map_arch/r ... merica.htm
Hawk
Re: North America - Early Discovery
I am pleased to report that that first, the second release, version 1112b of NAED is now available for download. Second, that the issues related to the AI not connecting with many cities and regions has been fixed. Yes I burned alot of my vaca to do this but it was worth it. I just felt bad that people were playing on a map that wasn't 100%
Another issue that came up was Sen Blab and his Anti-Monopoly restrictions which limited the Human player to having no more industry profit each year than the highest one of the AI. This has been completely removed in v1112b. My original intent was to keep the Human from buying up so much industry that they won Silver in the scenario without laying much track. But thing is, to win Gold you still have to lay alot of expensive track so maybe this will work out. I still have a gut feeling that some sort of limit should be placed on how much Industry the Human can buy, maybe an honor rule addition like "only 50% more than highest of AI" ??? I may do this in a future update but this will not happen for some time.
Hope you enjoy this new release. Feel free to comment on my scenario, both good and bad. And any ideas you may have to make it better.
~howdi
Another issue that came up was Sen Blab and his Anti-Monopoly restrictions which limited the Human player to having no more industry profit each year than the highest one of the AI. This has been completely removed in v1112b. My original intent was to keep the Human from buying up so much industry that they won Silver in the scenario without laying much track. But thing is, to win Gold you still have to lay alot of expensive track so maybe this will work out. I still have a gut feeling that some sort of limit should be placed on how much Industry the Human can buy, maybe an honor rule addition like "only 50% more than highest of AI" ??? I may do this in a future update but this will not happen for some time.
Hope you enjoy this new release. Feel free to comment on my scenario, both good and bad. And any ideas you may have to make it better.
~howdi
Re: North America - Early Discovery
Howdi:
Not a typical game, but I like it. I'm well into a first play of the 'na' version. Chose 30 years & 6 cities. Started on the East Coast with connection between NY, Pilly and Wash DC. Had 6 cities connected within 6 years.
I like the AI's aggressiveness. 15 AIs is a little overwhelming at first, but you get used to it. The weak ones start to show up after about the 3rd year. Only 3 are making any gains in my game. Think about giving the AIs $150,000 twice a year for the first 10-15 years. Also, if an AI's cash dips below zero at the end of a month, think about adding $50K to their account for the first many years.
Here's some initial comments:
1. Uncheck (disable) houses, churches, museums, retails stores, dep stores, etc. in the Industry (Overall) page. Also uncheck the warehouses, unless you want the player to be able to build these warehouses during the game.
- Disable custom houses in the Special Conditions page. (You can also disable short selling there as well.)
2. The status page could use more helpful information. For example, show the current number of cities connected and the years played thus far. It could also show the LTD loads, track miles, book value, revenue and profit for the player's company. If you want to get fancy, there is a way to show which company is highest in each of these on the status page.
3. Regarding the taxes on company profits: the event did not subtract the taxes from company cash. You need another Effect statement which says "Company Cash - Company Variable 1".
- Seriously consider lowering the taxes. A 10% tax on profit is tough on a fledgling company. A 50% tax is very tough. Profit is what the company uses to build and expand on. Reducing the profit by 50% cuts that ability in half.
- The screen message about the tax should show the profit so the player knows the % tax is correctly calculated.
4. I noticed that after the years of play are over a message appears explaining the awards. A player would probably like to know that the awards will be made within a year rather than "eventually". This helps the player know the intensity to keep playing.
5. The cargo volume adjustment is set to trigger only once when 30 years have passed. You will need to uncheck the "One time only' for it to repeat.
Lastly, some of my thoughts about raising industry prices. A productive industry will usually pay for its investment cost in about 5-7 years. Add another year if cargo has to travel a distance to the industry. This means that it is not economically wise to invest into a new industry within about 6-8 years of the end of a game: you will probably not recoup all your investment money. Raising industry costs 3% per year without raising production 3% means that every 10 years of play, you can add about 2 more years to the time span for recouping the cost of the investment. In a 30 year game, you would stop buying into industry after about 20-22 years. In a 120 year game, you would stop after 95 years. You may not have considered the effects of an annual 3% increase from this perspective. You may want to think about raising prices 3% as well (which is what industry does to compensate for inflation) and/or raising production every now and then to reflect improvements in technology which go on in the background. Let the player know if you do this.
Overall, a good game.
Not a typical game, but I like it. I'm well into a first play of the 'na' version. Chose 30 years & 6 cities. Started on the East Coast with connection between NY, Pilly and Wash DC. Had 6 cities connected within 6 years.
I like the AI's aggressiveness. 15 AIs is a little overwhelming at first, but you get used to it. The weak ones start to show up after about the 3rd year. Only 3 are making any gains in my game. Think about giving the AIs $150,000 twice a year for the first 10-15 years. Also, if an AI's cash dips below zero at the end of a month, think about adding $50K to their account for the first many years.
Here's some initial comments:
1. Uncheck (disable) houses, churches, museums, retails stores, dep stores, etc. in the Industry (Overall) page. Also uncheck the warehouses, unless you want the player to be able to build these warehouses during the game.
- Disable custom houses in the Special Conditions page. (You can also disable short selling there as well.)
2. The status page could use more helpful information. For example, show the current number of cities connected and the years played thus far. It could also show the LTD loads, track miles, book value, revenue and profit for the player's company. If you want to get fancy, there is a way to show which company is highest in each of these on the status page.
3. Regarding the taxes on company profits: the event did not subtract the taxes from company cash. You need another Effect statement which says "Company Cash - Company Variable 1".
- Seriously consider lowering the taxes. A 10% tax on profit is tough on a fledgling company. A 50% tax is very tough. Profit is what the company uses to build and expand on. Reducing the profit by 50% cuts that ability in half.
- The screen message about the tax should show the profit so the player knows the % tax is correctly calculated.
4. I noticed that after the years of play are over a message appears explaining the awards. A player would probably like to know that the awards will be made within a year rather than "eventually". This helps the player know the intensity to keep playing.
5. The cargo volume adjustment is set to trigger only once when 30 years have passed. You will need to uncheck the "One time only' for it to repeat.
Lastly, some of my thoughts about raising industry prices. A productive industry will usually pay for its investment cost in about 5-7 years. Add another year if cargo has to travel a distance to the industry. This means that it is not economically wise to invest into a new industry within about 6-8 years of the end of a game: you will probably not recoup all your investment money. Raising industry costs 3% per year without raising production 3% means that every 10 years of play, you can add about 2 more years to the time span for recouping the cost of the investment. In a 30 year game, you would stop buying into industry after about 20-22 years. In a 120 year game, you would stop after 95 years. You may not have considered the effects of an annual 3% increase from this perspective. You may want to think about raising prices 3% as well (which is what industry does to compensate for inflation) and/or raising production every now and then to reflect improvements in technology which go on in the background. Let the player know if you do this.
Overall, a good game.
Re: North America - Early Discovery
Sadly, can't force AIs to start somewhere unless you use a small territory or place them on the map before the game starts. Can usually bait an AI with a very large city and a nearby medium sized city. I'm amazed at the two start-up cities they chose in some games though.howdi wrote: -Get the AI to build into New England and NYC area, same with Portland Or to Tri Cities, etc.
Most games have a high cost for access, usually starting at $1M. If less than $1M, you might as well make it free. In your game, I'd pay at least $3M for each country, possibly $5M.howdi wrote:-Increase cost to access Mexico and Canada, currently 300k and 500k? Thinking about making them 900k and 1500k. Maybe higher?
You may want to consider increasing the cost of track over time, especially the cost of bridges and graded track. This slows down a player in expanding too fast. Setting up the 'limited track' condition is doable but takes lots of testing to make sure the ration of track is about right. Know that increasing the cost of track also increases the annual track maintenance cost for the player (usually 5% of track cost) for the rest of the game.howdi wrote:-Put restrictions on how much track the human player can lay at a particular time? Perhaps similar to how buying industry is handled.
Number of rivers seemed about right for me. Rivers are barriers to track building and rivals to a railroad company because they can convey cargo quicker than overland routes. Consider using rivers strategically to add challenge to a game.howdi wrote:-Maybe redo the rivers, add Susquehanna and few others?
Nothing wrong with a large cash buildup - makes the player look for investments on the map or think about upgrading their track. Think about adding an event which allows the player to periodically transfer company cash ($100K to $250K) to their personal cash account for the stock market.howdi wrote:-Do something about the big cash buildup. I had like 34M once and was trying like heck to merge but just wasn't working out. More tax man?
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RayofSunshine
- CEO
- Posts: 1288
- Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:04 pm
- Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Re: North America - Early Discovery
Guess I will add to the "can of worms" so to speak.
Playing the 1112a version, I was able to complete all the requirements in 24 of the 30 year option in "hard" level. This scenario was played from the Midwest at CHI, and worked to the West Coast via SLC.
Playing the 1112b version, I was still able to fulfill all the requirements in 19 of the 50 year option in "hard" level.
The only notices and awards which I received for the connection of cities was for that of SLC, and ELP.
Routing was San Diego (SAN) and all the West Coast cities to SEA. Then all the cities of requirement were via SLC, but one SLC was connected, there was no notice of the connection of either SAN, PDX, or Pocatello. Then nothing for Den, AbQ, or PHX. Connections for SLC to PHX, ELP, and ABQ, were via Cedar City and Las Vegas.
Although I have some agreement with comments made by Oil Can, he mentioned such notices for city connections. Now I may be missing some of the translations of info, as such notices may only be given at the completion of the intended year option taken.
Since I was able to complete these scenario in less than the deadline, such time frame could be shortened. Maybe not the 30 year option, but with any of the changes which Oil Can suggests, that the 50 cut to 40 and 80 to 65.
I will reserve my suggestion under the basis that I only played the "hard", and the "expert" could, and usually has a more strategic endeavor.
That said, I really enjoyed this upgrading of the 1112b or that of the 1112a versions.
Playing the 1112a version, I was able to complete all the requirements in 24 of the 30 year option in "hard" level. This scenario was played from the Midwest at CHI, and worked to the West Coast via SLC.
Playing the 1112b version, I was still able to fulfill all the requirements in 19 of the 50 year option in "hard" level.
The only notices and awards which I received for the connection of cities was for that of SLC, and ELP.
Routing was San Diego (SAN) and all the West Coast cities to SEA. Then all the cities of requirement were via SLC, but one SLC was connected, there was no notice of the connection of either SAN, PDX, or Pocatello. Then nothing for Den, AbQ, or PHX. Connections for SLC to PHX, ELP, and ABQ, were via Cedar City and Las Vegas.
Although I have some agreement with comments made by Oil Can, he mentioned such notices for city connections. Now I may be missing some of the translations of info, as such notices may only be given at the completion of the intended year option taken.
Since I was able to complete these scenario in less than the deadline, such time frame could be shortened. Maybe not the 30 year option, but with any of the changes which Oil Can suggests, that the 50 cut to 40 and 80 to 65.
I will reserve my suggestion under the basis that I only played the "hard", and the "expert" could, and usually has a more strategic endeavor.
That said, I really enjoyed this upgrading of the 1112b or that of the 1112a versions.
Re: North America - Early Discovery
Sorry I was away for some time and have not been on the site.
Thanks to both Oilcan and Ray of Sunshine for their detailed review and for the problems and ideas you both listed.
I am upset that I overlooked that final calculation for the taxes, maybe it's my growing age
that caused it. But I have no excuse for this oversight. Oh well, guess the ai who is at the top won't be paying taxes until this gets fixed.
ROS: The message stating that you will be going for the gold comes up at the end of the year when the required cities are connected. I will check this out further. The code looks ok and I have had the "going for gold" message come up a few times when I tested. I won once coming in from LA and another time coming in from Portland, Or. Just thought maybe I can get a game up to that point then send you the saved file to see if you get the message too?
Anyway, I will certainly print these messages out and work on an update. I also want to add in a few new features.
Thanks again for both your input's
Thanks to both Oilcan and Ray of Sunshine for their detailed review and for the problems and ideas you both listed.
I am upset that I overlooked that final calculation for the taxes, maybe it's my growing age
that caused it. But I have no excuse for this oversight. Oh well, guess the ai who is at the top won't be paying taxes until this gets fixed. ROS: The message stating that you will be going for the gold comes up at the end of the year when the required cities are connected. I will check this out further. The code looks ok and I have had the "going for gold" message come up a few times when I tested. I won once coming in from LA and another time coming in from Portland, Or. Just thought maybe I can get a game up to that point then send you the saved file to see if you get the message too?
Anyway, I will certainly print these messages out and work on an update. I also want to add in a few new features.
Thanks again for both your input's
Re: North America - Early Discovery
I had another thought about the three game situation. I can only imagine the headache of trying to keep the events in all three games the same.
Consider this solution. Use one game, drop the other two. Select ALL the trains in the editor. Present the player a 'choice' event which says something about choosing sets of North American (NA), European (E), World (W) or ALL trains for the game. If the player chooses 'NA', for example, the effect would be to make the E and W trains unavailable. Choosing E would make NA and W trains unavailable. Choosing W would make NA and E trains unavailable.
It means first listing out on paper the 3 train sets for NA, E and W. Then, in the event editor entering the sets of trains to make unavailable (availability = FALSE) for each choice. I would think the time to create this single choice event would be less than the time required to keep three games in sync.
Just an idea.
Consider this solution. Use one game, drop the other two. Select ALL the trains in the editor. Present the player a 'choice' event which says something about choosing sets of North American (NA), European (E), World (W) or ALL trains for the game. If the player chooses 'NA', for example, the effect would be to make the E and W trains unavailable. Choosing E would make NA and W trains unavailable. Choosing W would make NA and E trains unavailable.
It means first listing out on paper the 3 train sets for NA, E and W. Then, in the event editor entering the sets of trains to make unavailable (availability = FALSE) for each choice. I would think the time to create this single choice event would be less than the time required to keep three games in sync.
Just an idea.
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RayofSunshine
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Re: North America - Early Discovery
Now Oilcan,
That, is a great idea or suggestion. I didn't think along that line.
However, I did make the suggestion that Howdi could use all 3 scenarios, but to give each one a different set of requirements. I believe that Arop uses that system. Of course, unlike the Corwenia series, a person cannot change the names of the cities/towns. But there are many avenues on which to create goals for medals.
And Howdi, you don't have to apologize for any avenues of ideas which do not turn out. Even if there is a better direction which could have been taken. I believe that I ran out of fingers and toes to count the number of times of which I gave the wrong info or direction. It may take more time to make changes, but that is the interesting part of using ones imagination of creation.
Keep at it, and we all will be looking forward to your future endeavors. 
That, is a great idea or suggestion. I didn't think along that line.
However, I did make the suggestion that Howdi could use all 3 scenarios, but to give each one a different set of requirements. I believe that Arop uses that system. Of course, unlike the Corwenia series, a person cannot change the names of the cities/towns. But there are many avenues on which to create goals for medals.
And Howdi, you don't have to apologize for any avenues of ideas which do not turn out. Even if there is a better direction which could have been taken. I believe that I ran out of fingers and toes to count the number of times of which I gave the wrong info or direction. It may take more time to make changes, but that is the interesting part of using ones imagination of creation.
Keep at it, and we all will be looking forward to your future endeavors.
Re: North America - Early Discovery
Actually, it's very easy creating the three different loco choice maps. I simply work on one of the maps and then when ready to release, go into the editor and save two more with the different loco choices in the editor checked off. This only takes a few minutes.
I was trying to get an event to present loco choices but was having problems getting it to work and moreso, it takes forever to identify and put in each separate loco item for the event, as the editor does not offer a bulk copy feature. I know there are probably scenario(s) out there with an example of getting this to work. I will look into it but am going to give priority to fixing the more important issues first.
I still feel this scenario has the potential to be very good and attractive to those who enjoy a long, open ended type of game. And for those who enjoy connecting with their home town or close to it.
I still think there also has to be limitations placed on how much industry the human can purchase. This makes the player build more RR and allows the ai to remain somewhat competitive if the human is not racing ahead with large purchases of industry.
It's not that I'm trying to be 100% accurate with the real world. Of course there are no limitations in a capitalist system but my goal is to make the ai more competitive. When you lose a game by the ai getting silver it will make you think gosh, I came close but it was no cigar. Or visa versa. If you win a close game by getting the gold and the ai was breathing down your neck but you managed to eek out a slim victory. It is very satisfying. And this is what I am trying to achieve. But it is nice that the game is fairly open ended and people enjoy playing various parts of the usa, or even their home town.
The next release, I will put in a message within the readme to check this forum out and post your thoughts. This will get more participation from the players.
Thanks again for your ideas and input, I appreciate it.
~howdi
I was trying to get an event to present loco choices but was having problems getting it to work and moreso, it takes forever to identify and put in each separate loco item for the event, as the editor does not offer a bulk copy feature. I know there are probably scenario(s) out there with an example of getting this to work. I will look into it but am going to give priority to fixing the more important issues first.
I still feel this scenario has the potential to be very good and attractive to those who enjoy a long, open ended type of game. And for those who enjoy connecting with their home town or close to it.
I still think there also has to be limitations placed on how much industry the human can purchase. This makes the player build more RR and allows the ai to remain somewhat competitive if the human is not racing ahead with large purchases of industry.
It's not that I'm trying to be 100% accurate with the real world. Of course there are no limitations in a capitalist system but my goal is to make the ai more competitive. When you lose a game by the ai getting silver it will make you think gosh, I came close but it was no cigar. Or visa versa. If you win a close game by getting the gold and the ai was breathing down your neck but you managed to eek out a slim victory. It is very satisfying. And this is what I am trying to achieve. But it is nice that the game is fairly open ended and people enjoy playing various parts of the usa, or even their home town.
The next release, I will put in a message within the readme to check this forum out and post your thoughts. This will get more participation from the players.
Thanks again for your ideas and input, I appreciate it.
~howdi
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RayofSunshine
- CEO
- Posts: 1288
- Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:04 pm
- Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Re: North America - Early Discovery
It has been a time since I played this scenario, as I find the concept of it of interet. This time I started as Expert.
And then I read the "read me". I found an item which I had overlooked both times, but after playing 12 years, I read them again,only to find the item which seems to indicate that a player must be the "only operation" in CA. Maybe I am misinterpreting the reading, but I believe I remember that in the beginning, I checked all the AIs, and found that they control the stock, as AIs 12, and other stockholders as 8. Now, how is it possible for a player to merge, although I have experienced a large "offer" can make it happen. But then again, after 6-8 years, most all of the AI stocks have been purchased. Will have to recheck the stocks, to see if the "Chairmen" have accummulated more than their original 12 shares.
The reason for the comments, are that of operating from the Midwest, I find it too easy going, and have been able to lay more track, and having larger profits than any of the expanding AIs.
And then I read the "read me". I found an item which I had overlooked both times, but after playing 12 years, I read them again,only to find the item which seems to indicate that a player must be the "only operation" in CA. Maybe I am misinterpreting the reading, but I believe I remember that in the beginning, I checked all the AIs, and found that they control the stock, as AIs 12, and other stockholders as 8. Now, how is it possible for a player to merge, although I have experienced a large "offer" can make it happen. But then again, after 6-8 years, most all of the AI stocks have been purchased. Will have to recheck the stocks, to see if the "Chairmen" have accummulated more than their original 12 shares.
The reason for the comments, are that of operating from the Midwest, I find it too easy going, and have been able to lay more track, and having larger profits than any of the expanding AIs.
Re: North America - Early Discovery
Sorry it's taking me so long to get back. I am glad you like the Scenario. I am going to start working on an NAED2 here shortly.
Yes, the honor rules state you should not be the only one on the West Coast and if so you should restart until you have some competition.
It is definitely possible to merge in this Scenario. Please re-read the doc but I will copy the paragraph on merging here...
[Merger chance adjustment (human player only)]
Each year, the Human player will have to face a possible additional hidden premium to successfully merge with another company, or there could also be a bonus added to boost the vote. In detail, there is a 25% chance of a 20% boost to your vote, a 25% chance of no change, a 25% chance it will cost 17% more and a 25% chance it will cost 33% more to win the vote. It reflects the ongoing in-flux opinion by others of you and your company.
This helps to balance the fact that the AI cannot perform mergers. Please note this will generally repeat, even if you save and reload. Only way to get around it is to try merging again in another year. You can also try merging with a different company after reloading but this is discouraged.
My reply continued: Generally, you will have to get lucky and get the 25% boost to your vote to have a reasonable chance to merge.
I am beginning to start work on the 2nd version of this Scenario. Thanks for your feedback.
howdi (Dean Smith)
Yes, the honor rules state you should not be the only one on the West Coast and if so you should restart until you have some competition.
It is definitely possible to merge in this Scenario. Please re-read the doc but I will copy the paragraph on merging here...
[Merger chance adjustment (human player only)]
Each year, the Human player will have to face a possible additional hidden premium to successfully merge with another company, or there could also be a bonus added to boost the vote. In detail, there is a 25% chance of a 20% boost to your vote, a 25% chance of no change, a 25% chance it will cost 17% more and a 25% chance it will cost 33% more to win the vote. It reflects the ongoing in-flux opinion by others of you and your company.
This helps to balance the fact that the AI cannot perform mergers. Please note this will generally repeat, even if you save and reload. Only way to get around it is to try merging again in another year. You can also try merging with a different company after reloading but this is discouraged.
My reply continued: Generally, you will have to get lucky and get the 25% boost to your vote to have a reasonable chance to merge.
I am beginning to start work on the 2nd version of this Scenario. Thanks for your feedback.
howdi (Dean Smith)