Canyon Lands - BETA Version

Discussion about reviews and strategies for user created scenarios made for RT3 version 1.06.
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OilCan
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Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

This is a 1.06V BETA. I had to use 1.06V in order to fully utilize the event variables.

The map is set in southern Utah and northern Arizona, home to the most spectacular canyons in the US, possibly the world.
It is 1935, the worst of the Great Depression is over. Union Pacific Railways (UP) has decided to subsidize a small railroad (yours!) to carry tourists to see the canyon lands and boost UP's business.

The player will build track to 'scenic sites', equip each site with a hotel and restaurant and then haul passengers to the site. There are no AI.

The game goals are to:
Haul 3,000 loads of passengers for Gold (1,500 Silver )
Generate $50M in hotel & restaurant revenue for Gold ($25M Silver)
Connect to 50 scenic sites for Gold (35 Silver)
End with no debt

Since the player is a subsidary of UP, there is no stock market. One cannot build or buy industry, except for hotels, restaurants and POs. There are 30 years of play.

Any comments, suggestions or ideas to improve the game are appreciated. Highlighting of spelling errors is also appreciated.

Note: Beta2 Deleted. Beta8 on page 8 of this thread.
Last edited by OilCan on Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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RulerofRails
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

This is an awesome looking map. Wow! I started playing it, {Edited: this was an error from how I was using the Rail Yard structures Fertilizer mod :oops:} but noticed that the status counters are not displaying tourists (Passengers). It seems they are counting Paper. The end of year event for a bonus when you haul them isn't working either. I fixed the counters, but couldn't find the bonus event without looking closer than I wanted into the events. I am only three years in, but thought I would bring this up right away. (For others who read, the medals aren't affected, but you don't know your progress either.) I am trying it without hauling any freight, so no exploiting the great price potentials and I should have to play probably the whole game length. Thanks for another great map. People's routing choices are going to be interesting to see.

ETA: Here's how the express only play turned out:
Canyonlands Express traffic only.jpg
Canyonlands Express traffic only.jpg (78.51 KiB) Viewed 11302 times
Canyonlands routing.jpg
Canyonlands routing.jpg (45.89 KiB) Viewed 11302 times
Was mainly using the Class 5P5F Black as it's cheap to run. Did buy some U1s in the last couple of years. Ended up with 64 locos. Only built one set of Hotel/Restaurant/PO per town. Relied a fair bit on the UP in the early years for the stipend and bonuses in order to expand the network as well as any bonds I could get (15% is great!), running just in profit especially in a Depression that lasted 4 or so years. At year 15 I had made 1,000 passenger hauls, but only had around $13M of revenue from Hotels. Took all the options to boost passengers and revenue. I was a little surprised with the access choice where declining would prevent a gold medal. But who wouldn't accept? So it's fine. I felt that the bonuses (both the connect 50 cities, 3,000 passengers etc. and Hotel revenue reward) right near the end of the game probably aren't necessary at least on Expert level. To me it sort of subtracts from the debt free condition. At that stage the player should be earning well, but they will get all these extra millions making short work of any bonds. Otherwise, great map and very fun to play. I enjoyed the routing aspect and with the exception of Cedar Breaks Canyon everything was at a max of solid 4% with an odd 5 here or there. I love how the beautiful colors in the Piute Basin are visible. :mrgreen:
Last edited by RulerofRails on Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
RayofSunshine
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

This scenario will be very interesting to me. Traveling with my Wife, Son, and his Girlfriend in the hottest time of the year, we stopped at a point of interest wayside, just East of Canyon Lands, to beat some of the heat. As we were heading to Grand Canyon, at which we had reservations, and again beat the heat, we intended to travel during the night. I had maps of Canyon Lands, with the intentions to some day rent a 4 Wheeler, but just never was able to make such a vacation trip. Now, it is too late in my senior years, but will find a lot of fun in the playing of this scenario. As RoR comments, there is a liking of the terrain painting for some realism to make the scenario an interesting even. Thank OilCan, for helping an "old may" relive some of those "intended" years of touring. !*th_up*! :salute: {,0,}
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Hawk
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

RulerofRails wrote:I started playing it, but noticed that the status counters are not displaying tourists (Passengers). It seems they are counting Paper. The end of year event for a bonus when you haul them isn't working either.
Strange! **!!!** I don't have that happen.
To see then yearly passenger haul you have to check in Dec., not Jan., but the end of year bonus pop up shows the tourist haulage for the year.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.
RulerofRails wrote:I fixed the counters,
What event did you fix?
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RulerofRails
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

THERE IS NO ERROR IN THE MAP. :oops: :oops: :oops: I worked out what was wrong. I had an extra Fertilizer cargo in the Cargotypes folder as FertilizerRYSTRUCTURES.cty. I know that the game doesn't use it in the proper way (Fertilizer still uses the tank cars and is the original price), but it seems that it's putting two entries into the cargo lists in the events, making everything alphabetically after Fertilizer off by one. What I thought was a good idea (adding/removing a space in the files) to switch between the Rail Yard Structures (Fertilizer) modified cargoes/buildings and the regular ones turns out to be a very bad one. (I'm sure this is the reason that the new 1.06 cargoes were added at the end of the 1.05 lists.) I even added this idea to the Rail Yard Structures/Fertilizer install readme and it should be removed. Sorry Oilcan for saying there was an error in your map. I am left to wonder why I didn't notice this sooner on other maps.
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Hawk
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

Ah! OK! I was a bit confused. ^**lylgh

I'm only in 1942 but am I correct in assuming (of course we all know what happens when you assume :mrgreen: ) that after 1950 there are no new Ultra Cool engines available, since it looks like the Zephyr availability ends in 1950, according to the loco list in the editor?
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RulerofRails
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

I believe the A1 and Northern stay available beyond the end of this scenario (until 1968). If you want an Ultra Cool diesel you're out of luck after 1950. Something I noticed while playing early on was that the number of listed available passengers in St. George was lower than the number to certain cities when I clicked on the passenger cargo itself. I am guessing that it might have something to do with the warehouse that produces them. Doesn't affect gameplay, just a curiousity.

ETA: thought a little more about this remembering that the Zephyr should "stay on your list" according to the event which offers to remove some old steamers from your list after car weights increase. I paid no attention to any of the diesels while playing, but looking at my saved game during the 50s the Zephyr is nowhere to be seen. That event fires part way through 1950, so maybe it is a subtle hint to suggest buying the Zephyr. As far as I can tell you have the second half of 1950 to do that before it disappears at year end. Anyway, you will see for yourself soon.
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Hawk
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

The loco list in the editor says it's available until 1950.
I don't normally use the Zephyr. Just going by OC's recommendations to use ultra cool motive power.
I guess by 1950 you should be doing so good the ultra cool aspect isn't needed. The Northern is a bit more expensive to run though, IIRC.

I take it you're a strictly steamer kind'a guy.

Did you happen to see my post about the forum updates?
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

Sometimes those guided tours are profitable, and sometimes - not so much. !*00*!
Tours.jpg
Tours.jpg (22.17 KiB) Viewed 11266 times
Well, here I am in Feb. 1948. All 50 sites are connected (and all cities), but it looks like I've got some serious train management to look into, of all 93 current trains, with possibly the addition of more. ^**lylgh
I do have 6 or 8 dedicated express, but I probably need to change a lot more to express dedicated and cut down on freight only.
I haven't really been paying much attention to the trains so much as the connections. Now that it's done it's time to look at the trains more seriously.
Feb 1948.jpg
Feb 1948.jpg (51.58 KiB) Viewed 11266 times
Track.jpg
Track.jpg (91.8 KiB) Viewed 11266 times
I took out 3 bonds at the beginning, but real soon bought them back and never did sell any more.
I basically have one train running from city to site and two trains between cities. Mostly all Zephyrs with a few Class 5P5F's for freight.

A couple ideas on events, FWIW. :mrgreen:

The hunters severely deplete the elk and bear population (deer are OK though) and have to quit hunting them, causing a reduced food [meat] supply?
Later hunters resort to hunting bison, increasing meat again, only to find out - after they're caught - that hunting bison is considered taboo to the natives, reducing food/meat production once again.

Maybe another source of meat needs to be brought in - cattle maybe?

Maybe a conductor is caught selling contraband alcohol to restaurants. The conductor is busted and the RR is fined. The bad press causes tourism to drop for a time.

Just some thoughts. You did say you were out of ideas after the 15 year mark. :mrgreen:
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Hawk
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

I think this scenario needs some freight events to be added for Gold requirement. Once you get all the sites and cities connected and trains set up for tourism, there's really nothing to do but wait for the numbers to tick up.

Maybe taking my ideas above about meat and making it somehow a gold requirement. Maybe the lumber task could be added to gold.
How 'bout clothes. People love to buy t-shirts and hats, etc. from there travels.

As RoR showed, this map can be won with no freight at all. Money's rolling in with just the tourism.

How about CBV to add to the mix?

Just some thoughts. :salute:

BTW! Post offices never seem to make any money. I have a PO in every site and city and all of them are at -$1k profit. Only 3 hotels are showing negative profit, and 2 restaurants.
8 restaurants show profit above the purchase price and 15 hotels.

As it stands I could probably get gold on expert, and that's an accomplishment for me. ^**lylgh
It's May of '53 (19th year) and I just hit the 3,000th tourist and hotel/restaurant is at $36 mil.

Edit 1: I got Gold in Sept. '55 with $115,189K cash.
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RayofSunshine
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

There is no way that my passengers will get to 3,000. The economy seems normal enough, but the passengers just sit in the depots. I have "custom" made trains from depots to site, but most just set "waiting for cargo", although the cargo trains do well. Don't believe that I have even 335 passengers in the 12th year. Maybe it is due to my playing in the Expert level????

However, to make comment on my previous thread, I have toured most or many of the sites, not thinking of them being in the Canyon Lands. My idea of Canyon Land is that area on the upper side of the Canyon itself, which requires a 4wheeler. You might see the area pictured on calendars or advertisments. Any way, this is a scenario which brings back many enjoyable hours of my life, and is a very enjoyable scenario to play even if I don't get medals.

I did find an obstacle with the terrain at "the Pulpit". Laying track along the "incline", I was not able to get over the "flat" terrain. After a number of attempts, I Just used the Editor and lowered that edge. This must be about the steepest terrain to gain access to a site. A real challenge. Well at least I found it so. :salute: {,0,}
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Hawk
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

RayofSunshine wrote:but the passengers just sit in the depots. I have "custom" made trains from depots to site, but most just set "waiting for cargo", although the cargo trains do well.
Don't have your trains waiting for passengers. Just let them run empty when necessary. If you let trains sit and wait at the station you're most likely missing passengers at other stations, waiting on your train.
Just set the minimum to 0, maximum at 7 with a diner car, express only and let them run.
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RulerofRails
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

Part of the reason why I played as express only is that each one house town (what the game sees each tourist site as) demands all the cargoes of a proper city and will have full price if none have been delivered there yet. The problem is that only a little cargo sitting at that house there will cause the price to crater there, this is compounded by the varied terrain which isolates one sites demand even further making it more reactive. Just naturally, freight will get moved back and forth among them, as when they are newly connected their virgin demand is sure to be higher than the main towns on the map. Since I know what the game will do I can do the same thing but better and make tons of money. I will concentrate freight deliveries to one site until it will accept no more as the price is too low, then I would wait for the demand there to crater which will happen quite quickly. Then I will connect to a nearby site that has a full demand for all cargoes and haul everything there at an immense profit. This can be repeated until you are earning enough that it doesn't matter or you have connected everywhere. I really wish that low demands weren't able to build up to full price; like in RTII (i.e. a big city can build demand to a higher price than a small one-house town), but the game's cargo conversion profits model likely prevents this.

Ray, as Hawk said, don't use waiting trains. I would add to what he said: trains coming through empty is counted as service by the game. More service means that more passengers overall will want to travel as they are confident of reaching more destinations. (Please note that I haven't done a test specifically for this, but from my observations it appears to be true.)

Ray, how are your Hotel profits coming along? The way to boost them is to create hub points at strategic scenic sites especially those specifically between two proper towns. The main point to hub points is setting up train routes to stop at the hubs instead of going direct. In my game Pipe Springs was a hub point I started using early in the game. As it is halfway from St. George to Fredonia, most traffic between the two would be happy enough to stop over at my Hotel there. I also had feeder service from Zion Canyon, Kolob Canyon and Diamond Field early on. Later in the game it was part of the "route" for passengers coming in from Arizona as well. By the end of 1957 my total load count (this number is only express which obviously contains some Mail) there (TO: 437, FROM: 318) was higher than that from St. George itself (TO: 253, FROM: 302). The from number is so close and it might have been different if I had connected to Red Cliffs much earlier than I did (I did it in late game). The basic idea of a hub point between two main cities is that tourists split their journey in half, this way you get creditied for two loads hauled instead of one and you get the profits from them staying at your Hotel. Total lifetime Hotel profits (in 1957) at Pine Springs were 4.4M versus 2.7M at St. George and 2.9M at Fredonia. Currently, the events kick up passenger levels and Hotel profits high enough later in the game that you might still make it. Since you feel you are behind, take the expensive advertisement option each time and try to profit from it at your Hotels even it puts your books in the red for awhile. Have you been using bonds? I had 20 bonds out at 13.7% average rate at one point. Was trying to keep Hotel profits high enough to counter the interest cost.
Hawk wrote:I take it you're a strictly steamer kind'a guy.
No. I like all trains because they stand for efficiency. Using steam here was a choice to make things more difficult (because of water stops, steamers travel fewer miles in a year even when fuel costs are equal) and because in my imagination steamers fit with the natural, wild feel of tourist service in remote places. I would say I like steam more because they have a lot more character than most diesels and electrics mainly due to big business involving mass production and exact engineering for low cost which were introduced around the time diesels were and have increased to this day. (Second world war, depression etc. factors in this).This makes everything too alike and boring. I try to play in an historically accurate context. For example in a later era European scenario I will tend to go electric.

Post Offices never make money. You get the benefit from hauling more Mail. I haven't done a pure test to check for how much more Mail traffic they allow. But I have seen enough to know they do help, just can't quantify it is as an amount.
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Hawk
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

You do it a little different than I do. I use the cities as hubs, as I guess you can tell from my track layout.
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

Question: When you pay the advertising costs, pax car upgrades, etc., shouldn't that show up in the Income Statement as Misc. Costs?
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

Thanks for the suggestions. Usually, if an engine is "A-setting" I will then initiate a similar engine at the destination "point B", so as to eliminate the possibility of supply available. At least that is with those "slow" early era engines. But with good speed and incline engines of this scenario, I check to see where the menu shows demand of the depot's "to" list. Then will just switch the "A setting" to a different destination. Takes some micromanaging.

I "got the boot" as I came up short for the Silver goal. Close, but this isn't horse shoe. ^**lylgh

There was a "error" or just part of programming with the "ad" menu. I don't remember if I had not declined the previous time, but in Jan.1958 the notice shows "ad starts Feb.1957. I had the same responses for 64 and 65.

I did use the "cities" as hubs to the tourist sites. Although I did incorporate "P.O." for some of the early stations, I discontinued them after checking the "industry list" to find them losing revenue.

Although there may have been some improvement with the % of passengers with the $lM for 50% increase, I did not notice much if any increases. At least it did not seem to ""appear"" that way. Probably I am wrong. However, I did take most ever option to increase %s of passengers.

Although I did not get the medal, I found it to be a very interesting and enjoyable scenario. OilCan has the way of using events to increase interest and revenues. Good additions of play to keep the game moving along. !*th_up*!

Being that I did not get a medal, I really do not have any suggestions to enhance the game, although I see that others have had some good ideas, and am looking forward to any updates :salute: {,0,}
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RulerofRails
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

Hawk wrote:When you pay the advertising costs, pax car upgrades, etc., shouldn't that show up in the Income Statement as Misc. Costs?
Don't know if you are asking me? But I wish we could do that. Events are removing cash from the player's company. I don't think anyone knows how to get "costs" applied by an event to show in the Income Statement. Probably RT3's coding doesn't allow it.
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

I was asking anyone that might know. Thanks for the answer. I had a feeling that's what it was.
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OilCan
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

Great to see the feedback on the game. Thanks RoR, RoS and Hawk for the remarks and comments.

I will admit that this is an 'odd' game format in that it is only about hauling one type of cargo, passengers, and nothing else. The industry side of the game is off-limits for the player.

I wanted the cyclic advertising to play a major role in the outcome of the game, but I think its effect is almost lost to the periodic offers of increasing tourism. I tested the cyclic advertising at much higher increases in passenger numbers, but the number of passengers on the map swelled astonomically. I'm still not satisfied with how the passenger numbers swell in the first 15 years.

Adding more 'setback' events is a good idea. I'll do that.

Gumboots pointed out a while ago how Post Offices do add profit, albiet a small profit, that's why I promoted them in this game. The train is going by the station anyway, it might as well pick up the mail. If you look at the annual cargo hauls in the editor, mail loads become a 'respectable' number and well worth the annual $1K cost.
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

Hawk wrote:Sometimes those guided tours are profitable, and sometimes - not so much. !*00*!
I think the same thing happened to my retirement 401K last week. :shock:
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