Hawk & Badger Railroad Forum

I've had another idea for a new scenario but unlike all my previous maps, I fancy doing something (slightly) historical, based on a real place but don't know where to get the height maps.

So the question is: does anyone know where to get a large scale, close-up height map of the north of England (that's England - i.e. the bit below Scotland!)

In particular I need - at least the Liverpool-Manchester-Birmingham triangle, (the scenario will focus on the town of Warrington where I lived for a while.)

I've done the Google thing but didn't get anywhere - well I did get somewhere but it wasn't somewhere I wanted to be but that's another story! - so anyone got any ideas.

PS: Hawk, yes this does mean I'm going to try to claim two sections of the TM map archive for myself - "Other Lands" and now "Europe".

Wolverine is the man to talk to Ed. He knows more about using the USGS data to create detailed height/terrain maps than anybody else around here. You use the map generator- there is a link for it on the user created stuff page. I knew a little bit about this and I have managed to do it(I have a Colorado map I made this way that I am itching to complete) but I have been away from RT3 for a while and I have forgotten half of what I knew- so now I know about half of a little bit.

Edit to add: Here is Wolverines tutorial on making heightmaps: https://www.msu.edu/user/bowlby/rrt3/tu ... orial1.htm

I couldn't get the DEM data for Iran so I ended up using a topgraphical map and did colour replacement until things looked kinda right, and then I converted it all to grayscale. The end result wasn't too bad...but it took me a while to get it right.

Oddly enough- Wolverine uses the Iran and east to India area as an example in his tutorial!

Ha...didn't even notice that. It looked more India than Iran. Second look shows me otherwise. :)


Of course...a ton of stuff has been posted here: viewforum.php?f=65 that will help with mapping endeavours.

Thanks guys.
Although after looking through all those links I think I might stick with "other world" maps as I don't need more of this

It's easier than it looks Ed. Like I said, I have only moderate computer skills and I was able to make a custom map this way. Once you have the map generator installed, it really just entails drag selecting an area from the world map provided .

You could always use the Map Builder that comes with RT 3.

Ahhh, that's the one I had used Hawk. It is pretty easy to use, and has a complete world map (minus Antarctica maybe) to grab your map area from. It is located on Disc 2(the PLAY disc) of Rt3. Try installing this map generator Ed. Hawk has a download if you have an early copy of RT3 that doesn't include the map tool. When you select your area in the world map, you save it in the Data/Grayscale maps folder. Then, in the Editor, you choose create new map from Height map and set the height ratio- etc. and bingo- you have your map. If you have trouble with this I can probably make one for you, but again- Wolverine is the master at this, if you can get him to do it for you I am sure his would be superior as he knows some tricks to overlay road maps to give exact city and river placements and other details.

I don't have that world map....could you pm it to more or post it please?

Hers a screenie of the editor : I just reloaded this editor and am having some difficulties, I think it might be that I don't have RT3 installed in it's original directory.

OK- I have the MapCreator reinstalled properly(It does seem to want to be in the prescribed RT3 original folder location).
Is this what you are looking for Ed? I am not certain exactly which area you need, but this sounded like the right area.The Map is sized around 570 pixels, I could make it a bigger one if that's what you need. I havn't tried to input any rivers or cities. Let me know if this or something similar/larger/different height ratio- etc. will work for you and I will get you a copy.

You can download the Map Builder at this link; http://hawkdawg.com/rrt/rrt3/xtras/xtras5.htm#tuts Just scroll down a bit.
It's about 218 MB.

I actually did that...now I have that map. Funny thing is that all this time I thought I had the map builder but I was thinking it was something else.

nedfumpkin wrote:I actually did that...now I have that map. Funny thing is that all this time I thought I had the map builder but I was thinking it was something else.

I thought the same thing until I downloaded the map builder and realized it was something different.

Ed - If you go to this link http://hawkdawg.com/rrt/rrt3/map_arch/rt3_eur3.htm Wolvy has a tga file of the whole country of England already in the archives.

The problem with the RT3 mapbuilder is that it distorts the landforms as one moves away from the equator, so Great Britain and Alaska are "squished" in the north/south direction. How big (pixels) do you want the map? Send me a PM with a few more details about the geographic extent and size you want and I'll get one to you in a couple of days (or tomorrow if you PM me soon).

Okay will send a PM.

That map editor isn't exactly a joy to use, but the topography map it uses is actually very good! I could hardly believe my eyes when I realized that it is often possible even to see the routes of Tibetan or Mongolian smaller mountain rivers. That really helps! My own way is to have MS Encarta open (on my second display) while editing the RRT map. It works but isn't always very easy because the maps Encarta uses have somewhat different "projection" system. So, things always look different even though the same details and places can be found in both. With imagination and patience... :)

One possible "surprise" can occur when one edits the map editor's "raw" TGA file in Photoshop or elsewhere. RRT3's Editor is very picky regarding TGA file format! You may need to save your edited raw map many times, using different TGA options and even different programs before the map can be imported to the Editor. I seem to remember that Corel Photo Paint produced "correct" TGA format immediately whereas Photoshop files caused me trouble.

The fun isn't over even then. It is, I learned the hard way, possible to create a "technically" correct RRT3 map (within the allowed size etc. limits) which just won't work when you try to load the map into the game. So, it's wise not to spend too many hours with editing the map file without every now and then testing it in the game. Because if something goes wrong, it's probably about impossible to fix the problem anymore. I think these issues have something to do with very big maps (close to RRT3's technical limits) and the shape (width/height ratio) of those giant maps.

So, it's safest not to be too greedy like I have been. A little bit smaller map is more likely to work. ;) But if you want to be greedy and stubborn like me, just be patient and test your masterpieces as early as possible in "real game". You'll see in seconds if your new map does something funny.

The Scenario Editor is a funny bird, too. It's mostly quite easy to use and reliable too, but one should be careful with creating rivers and lakes. It's all too easy to create spectacular but more or less funny/unusable things like rivers that run backwards (or even worse: to two directions at the same time! :), virtually invisible lakes (oh, they are still there, affecting your track building, etc - you just can't see them!), lakes with ocean-like tsunami waves, and generally places that look nice but are unusable because, for example, the "invisible water" can make it impossible to build track or buildings where you need them... For example, my first version of Hong Kong was a lonely place with just invisible water and no room for buildings. :)

And if you mess around with "Adjust height" when creating or editing lakes (or rivers), beware: chances are that you accidentally manage to create a Grand Canyon or something even worse... How? Well, imagine placing a lake that is 0 m from sea level on a Tibetan plateau 3000m from sea level. What you'll get is, of course, a 3000m deep hole! And there's no "undo" ! :D

I don't even start with the script part of the Editor. Without a proper manual (where?) or better brain than mine, it just makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. For me it's been "trial and error". And mostly error. ;)

And finally, those gigantic maps like my China and Scandinavia act in a funny way both in the Editor and in the game. When one zooms and navigates the map in certain ways, parts of the map simply disappear. There's just pretty pink or white visible then. Don't worry; that's normal and gets solved using zoom and navigation keys again. It's some sort of a display memory bug in the game engine. It just can't handle huge maps properly. It doesn't affect editing or playing - it's simply annoying.

But all this is (mostly) fun - so good luck!

Have to say that I concur with everything you wrote...however, I use Corel Photopaint so everything always works with tga files.

One trick I learned is if you have a lake inland, then paint it the same orange/red that the heightmap uses for oceans. Works wonders.

Rivers are my bain. 'nuff said.