Very, very sad news from Europe

[Polynesia Rail]

In a German school, a 17 year old boy went crazy, killed 13 people in his school, ran out of the school, went to a psychiatric hospital, killed 1 person, then stole a car, went to a town and killed 2 other people who were shopping. The police came to the place and he started to shoot, nearly killing 2 police officers. Suddenly, he killed himself. Many people are injured, some could still die in hospital. This is a very sad day for Europe.

[proudcanadian]

Yes, it is a tragedy A similar thing happened on this side of the Atlantic yesterday, in Alabama. It's not a school shooting, but it's still a killing spree nonetheless. I don't know many details, but here's the wikipedia page on it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Alabama_spree_killing

[Polynesia Rail]

Here's an entry of the bloodbath in the erman school. Both shootings are tragedies...

http://montreal.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local ... ntrealHome

[Stoker]

Both of these shootings, as well as most other recent rampages were committed by people on psychotropic drugs(Prozac Riddlin-etc). These drugs make people not care about not only whatever is "depressing" them, but make them not care about anything at all, including murder. The "war on drugs" really means a war on whatever drugs cannot be peddled by "doctors" with huge profits going to the multinational corporations that make them. It is a farce. Our society, including that of Europe, is becoming whacked out on drugs at an alarming rate.

[Silverback]

Both of these shootings, as well as most other recent rampages were committed by people on psychotropic drugs(Prozac Riddlin-etc).........

I haven't seen any references to these killers being on psychotropic drugs - can you post references please? I found a reference to one being on psychiatric care last year http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7939206.stm - but no reference to drugs. maybe I just missed them.

Of course its likely that anyone with a mental problem may be prescribed drugs, but they have the mental problem first. Drugs could be making the illness worse rather than helping in some cases, but not everyone on the drugs turns to homicide.

[nedfumpkin]

Don't mistake the effects of Ritalin and Prozac since they are entirely difference classes of drugs. Using the general term psychotropic medication is very misleading, and not very revealing.

Ritalin is prescribed for ADHD and to the human brain is is chemically identical to cocaine. I've not seen anything to lead me to beleive that this drug causes people to have a propensity for extreme violence.

Prozac belongs to the SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) class of anti-depressants. This also includes Xanax, Zoloft, and its associated class of NSSRIs (N for non-) and these include Wellbutrin, or by its other name Zyban.

SSRIs came onto the market in the late 80s and early 90s and have been prescribed to everyone who claims any form of depression. To say that they have been over prescribed is another topic, but the fact remains that these are the worst possible chemicals you could put into your body, and they are only effective in less than 3% of the people who have had them prescribe.

The two most common side-effects from these drugs are a propensity for anger and violence, and suicide ideation. The other two side-effects that are very common are loss of friends and loss of job. They chew out your brain and completely affect your psyche. It is not illegal to prescribe them to childern under 18.

Depression is real, and so far only one drug has been proven to conclusively cure clinical depression for about 6 months with only one treatment. That drug is Ketamine, and it is known as the street drug Special K. Further studies are being conducted on this off-label prescription, but naturally Big Pharma doesn't want something that works for under 10 bucks when they can make millions by keeping you chewed out on SSRIs. (lessons learned in the Ghetto hence crack cocaine)

The presence of SSRIs in almost all cases of extreme violence is being proven through studies. Columbine, Virginia Tech, Chris Benoit, Dawson College, Ecole Polytechnique are the first that come to my mind, but a quick search on the internet will reveal a lot many more.

There are three factors that have been shown to be present in individuals who go "postal." They will have suffered what they perceive as a betrayal. They will have lost all hope. They will have access to the means to carry it out.

Most people will have experienced one or all of the above factors at some point in their life and have been able to work their way through it. Some for the better, some for the worse. When you put SSRIs into the mix, things change. People who are not innately angry, or haven't a strong sense of betrayal have a higher propensity for suicide. Once the determination is made that the suicide victim was depressed, no further inquiry is made into the effects of the drugs. It gets blamed on the depression rather than recognized as a adverse drug reaction.

Others have a higher propensity for what they perceive to be retribution, and this appears to be a common element in all school or workplace shootings. Oftern they will have a list, as it is reported in Alabama, or as in Columbine, they killers were reported to have been stating that their victims deserved it.

This is what SSRIs do to people. While everyone at some time wishes that ill would come to someone who has done them a wrong, and many will often seek revenge of some kind or another. But generally this doesn't include extreme combat style violence where planning has occured; usually it is spontaneous and as a result of a perceived immediate provocation.

People keep treating others like crap, and unfortunately there is a drug on the market that makes people more likely to take extreme measures to resolve their perceived wrongs.

Have some Special K.

[SRV Ron]

When seconds count, the police will always be minutes away.

The anti gun crowd are going to use all three shootings as an excuse to enact gun control for the law abiding citizens. The German massacre is even more mystifying considering how difficult it is for anyone to legally possess a gun in that country.

Gun control, knife control, hammer control, life in prison for committing violence crimes, none of this is going to keep the brain damaged individual from obtaining weapons and going out in a blaze of glory.

One defense against such an attack is to watch for the warning signs and get help for that individual. That is not always possible as it could trigger a reprisal. The best defense is when there are armed citizens around with CCW training. They have, in the past, vastly shortened such attacks, by either subduing the attacker until the police arrive, or physically taking them out before they have a chance to kill even more innocent people.

[nedfumpkin]

I'm sorry Ron but I disagree with your approach. I do agree that the anti-gun crowd will be all over this, and that's a separate issue. But I cannot condone the idea of having an armed populace engaging in gun battles.

One thing to keep in mind, and it certainly not politically correct, is that generally the victims are not so "innocent." As I wrote above, these are acts of retribution for a perceived wrong, whether real or not. Superstition makes us not want to speak ill of the dead and all misdeeds are forgiven, but the fact remains that in most cases the individual was in effect committing suicide but taking their tormentors with them. A more aggressive form of suicide.

The SSRIs are the thing that puts these people over the edge, not brain damage. Until SSRIs existed, in the late 80s, these things almost never happened.

[Stoker]

Thank you Ned, I wasn't in the mood for digging up aggressive/homicidal/suicidal side effects reports on the net. If any of you actually doubt that these drugs have these side effects, just turn on your television and you will be bombarded with commercials for mind altering (SSRI )drugs that have these "side effects". But don't worry, they have pills to treat the side effects, and of course pills to treat the side effects of the pills treating the side effects. The news reports I heard said both the German teen and the Alabama shooter were taking "antidepressants". The Columbine shooters were both on this crap also, and if you dig a little bit you will discover that many of the recent spree shooters (VA tech- Jonesboro, the MN reservation etc etc) were in fact taking "antidepressants". These drugs just make people flat out not care about anything.

[KevinL]

I'm sorry Ron but I disagree with your approach. I do agree that the anti-gun crowd will be all over this, and that's a separate issue. But I cannot condone the idea of having an armed populace engaging in gun battles.

He didnt say "an armed populace engaging in gun battles." He said an informed, trained, and legal citizen carrying a concealed weapon that could be used to subdue an individual who has "gone postal." Studies over many years have shown that in areas that allow CCW, violence is well below the average, while the opposite, areas that do not allow CCW, have huge upswings in violence, murder, and crime. If the criminals know the public is unarmed, they have much more freedom to commit their crimes.

[Knave]

I am very old compared to the Polynesia Rail. But I remember acts of violence in the news when I was his age. And I remember the difficulty that came with trying to understand it all. Polynesia Rail probably posted looking for some kind of insight or guidance. Assistance to grasp what was in the news.

What he is getting everything but understanding. He is getting half baked opinions wrapped around twisted unsubstantiated personal agendas spoon fed as facts.

Grow up gentlemen. Every thread posted on these boards in not an electronic battle ground for self proclaimed wannabe experts on everything.

Show some compassion for a fellow member of our community.

Did I mention, Grow Up?

Take it to a thread of your own. That venue is available elsewhere on these boards.

[Stoker]

How do you know what he was thinking Knave? Is it your job to post other peoples thoughts? This thread was about a couple of rampage shootings, and myself and others weighed in on it. That is all. Grandstanding and name calling on your part are not necessary.

[Hawk]

Let's be kind to each other, even if there is a disagreement of beliefs.
One of the rules of this forum is no attacking other members. Please try to remember this.

[nedfumpkin]

Kevin...you're not even splitting hairs because "informed, trained, and legal citizen carrying a concealed weapon that could be used to subdue an individual " is a plain clothes police officer, if non-police were carring concealed weapons, then that would be arming the populace, hence an armed populace. Subduing an armed individual would necessarily be engaging in a gun battle.

[Hawk]

When you outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have guns - hence giving the outlaws an open door because they know whoever they break in on doesn't have a gun.

[SRV Ron]

For the unformed, in order to get a CCW license, you have to go through extensive training that is similar to what a police offer goes through before he, she is allowed to carry a firearm in public. A police officer you can see if he is armed. Since someone with a CCW is allowed to conceal their weapon, you won't know if they are armed. That is often a deterrent to a criminal looking to commit a crime in public.

The average gun owner that does not have a CCW is NOT allowed to carry a loaded gun in public and can not carry a loaded gun in their car.

I do not want armed people with no training running around with loaded guns. In fact, if you are going to have a gun in the house, everyone in the house should know how to handle, store it safely, and keep it out of the reach of those too young to handle such weapons. An untrained person with a gun is nearly as dangerous as armed criminals.

I prefer to have people with CCW permits and police officers trained in the proper use of a weapon. Since a uniformed officer can't be everywhere when someone loses it or commits a crime using a gun, the next best line of defense is a citizen trained in the use of a weapon. The stats have proven that 9 times out of ten just the presence of the gun by the trained citizen is enough to end the committing of a crime.

[Stoker]

Here in the West, most states (CO, WY,MT, UT, AZ,ID,and OR for sure)allow open carrying of firearms, meaning that you can carry a loaded pistol if it is in plain sight. I think California is the exception to this rule. I spend a lot of time in the wilderness gold prospecting and always holster a pistol or carry it unloaded in my pack. I don't generally pack in public although I could here in AZ. Some years ago, I was living in Wyoming when they enacted a state law prohibiting open carrying of firearms into banks. All the old timers were outraged by this saying that Wyoming has one of the lowest armed robbery rates in the nation. Can you imagine some whack job pulling a gun in a convenience store or bank and having 5 cowboys pointing their pistols at the idiot? Restrictive gun laws make it so that only criminals have firearms, not a good idea in my opinion.

[Grandma Ruth]

I agree with Knave that we have a young man here who has maybe for the first time had to come to terms with the fact that someone of around his age has done this awful, inexplicable, violent thing. Perhaps our Poly is scared at the feelings this brings up in him and those of us who are older and have seen more of life need to re-assure him.
I've never been a teenage boy but you all have - I understand it's a time of turmoil and raw emotions and what not.
Poly is such a cheerful, enthusiastic, joyful guy as a rule, it makes me very sad to see him upset like this.
The only useful thing I can think of to say is that, the reason these outbreaks are news is because they're unusual. If they happened every day and everywhere they wouldn't be in the papers, would they? Most people are kind, happy, secure, reliable and responsible and most people learn to deal with the negative feelings we all have, in ways that don't hurt anybody else.
And I know we are all sad for the victims' families.

[Polynesia Rail]

Hey!

I just posted this to let you know what happened. Personally, I think it's very sad, but it will happen again and again. Some children have psychiatric problems or have problems with other students in school. After years of problems or mobbing, some kids want to show the world what they really are like. It's sad but we can't really prevent them. Thank you all very much for worrying for me, but actually I'm fine! I said it are sad news because it's a fact. These things aren't funny. Imagine you drive your children to school in the morning and some hours later police officers stand in front of your door and tell you your children are dead!

Greetings, Polynesia rail

[Sugus]

I suggest that - also - the game producers intensively think about such sad events. From my point of view, all these bloody shooters shouldn't be produced anymore! Virtually killing poeple synonymous with fun???

It's not my intention to start a discussion about education, but maybe we should try to urge the kids to rather play simulations instead ...