The value of a trolley

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Gwizz
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Seattle just completed a trolley line from Lake Union to downtown Seattle.
The distance of this route is 1.3 miles built at the cost of 53 million dollars.
3 buses can haul more passengers at a total cost of 1 one million. Since the trolley is in the street, traffic has been bottlenecked since startup of the trolley. One person walked the trolley line and rode the trolley back. The trolley beat his walking time by 2 minutes. The mayor said the street car is better because you can see the rails in the street. Therefore you will always know where the trolley will go. :roll:

The Mayors next project is a 203 million bike path. :shock:

2. Kansas City in planning a terminal for the Mexico to Canada highway.
This will be the biggest terminal and be paid for by the US. The terminal with grounds will be given to Mexico and become Mexican sovereign territory, a part of Mexico. The Mexican Government will control, monitor and check the cargo's coming into the US from Mexico. there will be no check points at the 3 countries borders in either direction.

The treaty says the highway will be 10 football fields wide, 10 lanes, 6 for cars 4 for trucks. It will include a railway down the center and have a place for pipelines. Of course the US will pay for this highway as well.


3. There is a bill in our legislator to give control of US waterways to the UN. The UN will take control of our naval forces that now police the rivers, lakes and coastlines. Apparently the UN is already doing this for other nations.

We called our legislators in Washington DC and we were told they would be too busy to debate this until after the New Year. Our Democratic leaders seemed to see no problem with this bill. The Republicans seemed more reserved like they wanted to test the waters first.

Question, Why are we being bled? Are we being set up for an economic take over. If we resist I understand 3 new huge prisons are being built in the state of Arizona. Is that true AZ?
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Hawk
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Are we being set up for an economic take over.
Yep! By the Socialist North American Union. :cry:
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WPandP
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At one point in time, trolley lines were built by PRIVATE INVESTORS because there was money to be made... improving trip time by 2 minutes over walking was worth something back then! But the reality of 1907 is not the reality of 2007, and it is a monumental waste of public funds to try and impose the solutions of last century. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for rails, the more rails the better! But I want every new steel rail and wood tie to be paid for privately, demonstrating that there is vested faith in the profitability (i.e. value to the market) of creating the route.

I wonder often about the viability of TOFC freight routes that might operate down the median of major interstates, such as I-75 here in Cincinnati. What if the government leveled the playing field by investing as much in rail infrastructure as it does in highway, simply by providing the roadbed on its already-surveyed-and-owned traffic corridors, and then leasing this out to a private carrier? Then, maybe piggyback service could get some of the trucks off the highways, the cargo could move with far less greenhouse gas emissions, and all BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER TO MOVE FREIGHT THAT WAY, not because of any top-down, heavy-handed government regulations or programs. They might be trains with a lot of flatcars, a few auto racks, and a few sleepers that would sort of work like drover's cabooses; the drivers and their trucks go along with the trailer, using the opportunity of the rail trip to catch up on sleep and thus qualify for much greater delivery ranges.

Anyways, it seems like efficiency commends itself, and the only thing government really needs to do is get out of the way of those with more efficient ideas. Government does not need to impose solutions, especially the grossly inefficient ones that haven't happened in the private sector because they are not sustainable, not viable. *cough* Social Security *ahem*

As for UN control and the coming integration of North America, I think we are seeing prophecies coming true and the world is going to get organized into the beast of seven heads / ten horns of Revelation, whether we like it or not. I know the fight that's coming; I'm just making sure that I'm going to be on the winning team. It is sad, though, that this country founded on principles of self-governance and open debate, is unable to shake these plans one way or another, and that there is no real debate going on any more. People don't THINK any more; they let others do their thinking for them.
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Hawk
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I think we are seeing prophecies coming true and the world is going to get organized into the beast of seven heads / ten horns of Revelation, whether we like it or not.
IMHO, we're so far into the End Times right now that it's both frightening and comforting.
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proudcanadian
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Yes, this is a very sad fact. :cry:

I would love to see the re-instatement of a huge rail infrastructure again. I think that rail lines down Interstate highways would be a wonderful idea WP&P. Unfortunately, in this day and age, this probably would never happen.

As to the coming of Armageddon, I've thought for years that we were the ones that would see it, and it looks like I was right!!! :o
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The trolley battled a car and it seemed to have been almost a draw. One person said the structure of the trolley was so light he felt it could be dangerous for a passenger.
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To follow up on my comments about a possible rail carrier for regular highway traffic, there is in fact a concept being done over in Europe already that is very similar - I just found this:

http://www.lohr.fr/rail-route.htm

This is a french-language page, but there is a link in the lower right for an english brochure PDF. Basically, it is a type of flatcar that allows quick simultaneous unloading of trailers; it seems as if terminals for this could just about be built in the parking lots of existing rest stops! It seems to make a lot of sense... what prevents it from happening here is what I think government should be spending its time investigating, finding out ways to get out of the way of this kind of innovation, and let a group of investors give it a go here. The imbalance of subsidy between roads and rail is a HUGE factor as to why this might not be profitable here; over there, the rail line is generally state-owned just like the road. Still, it seems like it should be possible for this to work here in the USA.
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wsherrick
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OH LORDY :!: I feel a sermon coming on me.
Anyways, it seems like efficiency commends itself, and the only thing government really needs to do is get out of the way of those with more efficient ideas. Government does not need to impose solutions, especially the grossly inefficient ones that haven't happened in the private sector because they are not sustainable, not viable. *cough* Social Security *ahem*
Sorry Guys, I guess it's time for more bloveating by wsherrick. Yes, you would think that in a rational world efficiency would commend itself, but we don't live in a world governed by rationality it seems.
In regard to street car systems and such. They worked and work still quite well. Memphis TN is one example. They put a street car line back in service down the middle of down town for tourists. They found authentic turn of the century street cars down in Mexico that once ran on the Memphis Street Railway. This historic recreation was a huge profitable big hit for the city. So they've expanded it quite a bit. The cars are always crowded.
Many street car systems, didn't go out of business because they weren't profitable, they were deliberately destroyed, by the auto and oil interests. It is a matter of historic record.
The steam locomotive industry was also placed in at a disadvantage and wiped out by GM. (See Economic Results of Diesel Electric Motive Power by Brown)
Before we go on-a few fun facts. A single standard gauge track has as much haulage capacity as an 18 lane highway. One average freight train carries as much as 400 semi trucks.
The track and train haul this without burden to the public. In fact the railroad industry pays large amounts in taxes.
The trucks are a burden to the public as they must move on a tax payer supported right of way as they cause damage to the road that exceeds the budget for repair by quite a lot.
Just think about this. If a private trucking company had to buy and condemn land, pay taxes on it, build a road network and maintain it out of their earnings. Well, there would be no interstate trucking industry.
The government building of US highways and interstates, subsidizing the airline industry, trucking industry and taxing the public to maintain the right of way AND not passing those costs on to the private companies, i.e. truckers and airlines who use a public way at a nominal cost. Led to the abandonment and destruction of the greatest, most efficient transportation network ever to exist.
The Government has always been punitive toward the railroad industry. Those evil greedy capitalists had to be controlled, taxed and placed at a competitive disadvantage. They were and still are expected to provide transportation that is demanded of them and do it with the capital they earn, borrow or get from investors.
The hostile or negligent attitude of the regulatory bodies, big labor and falling profit margins led to the horrible state of affairs that reached a crisis point in the 1970's. The railroad industry's earnings had sunk until they were earning a negative rate of return. (help me out here EPH)
Then under Regan some, not all of the cripping regulations were relaxed under the Staggers Act of 1980. Slowly the industry began to repair and heal itself until the present day where the rate of return on investment, has finally attracted much needed dollars from investors.
Now the world is dealing with rising oil costs without any relief in sight. The trucking industry is suffering greatly. The railroad industry in the US is suffering also, but their natural efficiency makes it a lot easier and the most sensible alternative to trucking. For the first time in a hundred years the railroad industry due to rising oil prices can sort of attempt to compete with the truckers. Well, guess what? Now that we have a Democratic controlled Federal Government. This new profitability of the Railroad Industry is view as an injustice.
You must remember that to a dyed in the wool socialist. The steam locomotive chugging down the steel rail represents the most evil form of money grubbing capitalism, recalling such terms as, "robber baron," etc. The evil big railroad is always taking advantage of the poor little guy. Movies and literature is filled with these images.
Well, your gut reaction would be, "well that was in the past. Railroads no longer have a monopoly on transportation. It's 2007 not 1897.
Let me refer you to the latest issue of Trains Magazine. It turns out that some Democrats are pushing hard to repeal the Staggers Act and bring back the regulatory environment of the Turn Of The Century.
A few snippets from the article I read: "You're looking at the 1970's. You're looking at bankruptcy, you're looking divestments, you're looking at abandonment's." This from Association Of American Railroad Communications Director Tom White. The individual who's heading up this move to re-regulate the industry is a Rep. James Oberstar-Democrat Minn. now chairman of the House Transportation Committee. He says, "The railroads are common carriers Their service is not without public responsibility." That remark is right out of 1897.
Wait, there's more. "In the 19th Century the government gave the Railroad's huge tracts of land-They(the railroad industry) have an obligation to serve." He operates from a grossly inaccurate view of history. He expects the industry to provide transportation at a loss, because of the public interest. Vanderbilt said, "The public be ******!" People like this Congressman prompted this famous remark. I agree with Vanderbilt. This cat and his leftist buddies once again view the railroad industry as the enemy of the, "people," simply because he feels that making a fair return on investment is somehow cheating the shipper. Not only do these officials want to re-regulate as of old-they want to be Teddy Roosevelt and impose anti trust legislation on the industry. As if the railroads had no other competition from government subsidized modes of transportation. It is almost beyond belief. I think I'm in 1897 hearing this stuff. If these people get their way, It will be dark times for all of us who work for a railroad. It is especially ironic to me in this age of high fuel prices and concern about pollution. The answer to all of these problems is a healthy, profitable and privately operated railroad industry.
So to answer the statement that, "efficiency should commend itself." Yes, it should when sensible people are looking at it. But, the reality is, sadly, far from the case.
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wsherrick
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I hope this reregulation bill is defeated.
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My dad's email signature says "The reason why politicians try so hard to get re-elected is because they dont want to live under the laws they've created." How true it is. :roll:

Imagine how fast our problems would be fixed if the people who created these dumb laws and regulations also had to follow them.
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Gwizz
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Wisherrick, Good post.

I agree with most of what you say.

Thinking about Seattle.
The bus interests and autos did put the profitable street cars and interurbans out of business. My son lives off Interurban road about 30 miles out of town. There is not a rail left to see.

About 12 years ago Seattle put in a trolley line along the water front for the tourists. It really does not go anywhere and didn't make enough profit to pay it way. But The Seattle people did like it.

About 6 or 7 years ago the voters voted down our full size passenger train service covering about 70 miles using existing rail right-of-ways through Seattle. But the people were over ruled and got it anyway.

Over the holidays this railline has been hauling about 3000 or 4000 people each day. One stop is at our two new stadiums which the voters also voted down, but got anyway. The increased traffic on the highways caused by the new people moving here, has negated any relief from jammed traffic on our freeways.

About 3 years ago construction started on our overhead light rail, again against the wishes of the voters. It will share the rebuilt tunnel that was originally built new about 8 to 10 years ago for buses. It roughly shares the same route as heavy rail.

Recently we got the 1.3 mile street car line, built to serve a new private development, using mostly tax payers money. It is causing major traffic jams where it runs on the streets as signals have been changed to accommodate the street car.

I can't say I don't enjoy all this rail we are getting, because I do.

But, an estimate was made for what it would have cost if another larger freeway had been built along the water front going through Seattle serving mostly the same areas as the new rails. It has been awhile but I believe the cost they stated was about (37% I think?) 1/3 the cost of the railways. The new freeway would have been able to carry the predicted increase in traffic for another 10 years.

Seattle does want to rebuild the so called ugly waterfront freeway and hide it into a tunnel but with the same number of lanes. The voters did say no, but I can guess whether we get it or not.

Now Seattle is a special case. It has water (the Sound on one side and Lake Washington on the other side) for the full length of the city. It is shaped somewhat like a dog bone. It is a good setting for Rail.

But, the Seattle area does has a history of parts (Small mountains) slipping into the water on both sides.

Seattle also has some major earth quake faults surrounding it.


I like railroads. But Seattle is not a place to invest lots of tax dollars aimed to increase it's population as business moves out and is replaced by new high value condominiums.
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