Real-world Train Question

[Grandma Ruth]

Coming home from work the other day a question struck me which I'm sure someone here can answer. My commuter train pulls into my home station and then on the next leg of its journey it "backs" out - our station's the end of the line! There's an engine (or drive unit or whatever it's called) at both ends of the train so the guard and the engine driver just change places.

What did they used to do before modern engines? Presumably this situation must have come up with the old steam engines - I remember them but not in any great detail. There must always have been an "end of the line" where the train needed to reverse out. How did they get the engine from one end of the train to the other - or did they turn the whole train round or what???

[Gwizz]

They did it a number of ways.

1. A very short train on a short line RR, might just backup the whole train. This is normal practice on a RR with a switch back.
2. A small RR might just move the loco to the other end of a passenger train on a siding and run with the loco tender first.
3. Many RRs had a turntable that turned the loco around.
4. Others had a Y track to turn the loco.
5. Some even had a balloon track where the whole train could be pulled around the balloon track to reverse direction.

Locally we did have a very small steam RR that had a turntable down town at the very end of track. The engine was turned and run around the passenger cars on a siding to a switch, where it was backed up to the other end of the train. At the other end of the track was a balloon track. Some say a balloon track gave even wear on the wheel flanges; But, with the correct taper for the degree of curve, a wheel flange will never touch the side of the rail.

[Grandma Ruth]

Thanks! Unfortunately they've just re-built the tracks and I don't know if they've taken up any sidings there might have been. I'll have a look tonight and see what I can see - I think there were some and I have an idea that's what they did. Even I would have noticed a turntable, surely!

[Knave]

San Francisco, California still runs its old trolley system. They have turntables at their 'end of the lines' where the passengers are expected to get out and help push the car around 180 degrees to continue the journey. Darn cute in my book. Yes, very touristy.

[Grandma Ruth]

Yes, I've been there. Back in the days when you could have a smoke with your drink at the Top of the Mark (and we have the ashtray to prove it!). We stayed there for a night or so, just to say we'd done it, and took the street car down the hill. Very touristy indeed, every film ever made about San Francisco has a car chase down that hill. Thanks for bringing back fond memories.

[SRV Ron]

When the runaround track is available for excursions, the 1225 will pull the passenger cars while running backwards using a headlight on the tender.

For the Polar Express run, it has to be pulled backwards by a diesel engine as there is no runaround track available in Chesaning.

The institute is looking to install either a balloon loop or wye switch. The problem, as usual, is getting a right of way and money to lay the track. Right now, they were lucky to get track repaired from Oakley to the fairgrounds.

The big steam show is now four days in July 23-26 in Owosso. http://www.trainfestival2009.com/

[AZ Rail Rat]

Story: http://www.arizonan.com/Seligman/

Sometime around 1886 when Thomas Bullock built the line from Prescott, Arizona connecting to the Atlantic and Pacific Railroad at Seligman (about half way between Flagstaff and Needles), the train did have to run backwards from Prescott (story History, second paragraph). This made a trip in reverse of about 50 miles or so.

[Hawk]

To add more to this topic; During the late 1800's and early 1900's (I think they closed the line around 1948) there was a short line (The Rome RR) that ran from Rome, GA to Kingston, GA, connecting with the Western & Atlantic at Kingston.
While there was a wye at Kingston there was no known way to turn an engine in Rome so that train would have had to run backwards on one leg of the trip, about 26 miles.

There was another short line that ran from the Western & Atlantic just south of Cartersville to Etowah (now under Lake Allatoona) and the copper smelting furnace there.
There was no way to turn that engine either so it would have had to run backwards on one leg of the trip as well, only about 12 miles.

[thegrindre]

Also, to add a little more 'fuel to this fire', they did what ever they had to, to keep things running, being it backwards or forwards. It did not matter so, anything goes when it comes to railroading.
If you could think of it, it was probably done.

[Knave]

How did gearing work in the steamers?? Could they go as fast in reverse as going forward? If memory serves me correctly some of that train race that was held in Hawk's neck of the woods was done in reverse. And they caught the 'leader'. The story kinda stuck with me as part of it reminded me of a dog sled race with the one engineer running behind his engine.

[Hawk]

How did gearing work in the steamers?? Could they go as fast in reverse as going forward?

I believe it all boiled down to (forgive the pun ) the amount of pressure from the steam, and not so much on gearing, although I have read that steamers didn't function quite as well in reverse as they did in forward.
Maybe one of the old steamers around here will pop in and answer that.

If memory serves me correctly some of that train race that was held in Hawk's neck of the woods was done in reverse. And they caught the 'leader'. The story kinda stuck with me as part of it reminded me of a dog sled race with the one engineer running behind his engine.

Are you talking about the Great Locomotive Chase during the Civil War, where the confederates stole The General?
Part of that 'chase' did involve one of the trains running in reverse for a spell. It's the one that actually caught up with the General. That was The Texas.
There was two other trains involved with that chase. One was from the Rome Railroad. That was the William R Smith. The other one was The Yonah, which was operated on the Etowah branch.
There was also a pole car involved as well as a little leg work; a run of about 5 miles total I believe, two different times.
Interesting story. http://hawkdawg.com/MSTS/rts/wa.htm

[Gwizz]

With everything being equal, a steamer will run just as fast backward as forward.
Often the valving is set a bit different in reverse, probably because there is little need to be exact in the measurements for reverse running.

[thegrindre]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, there were'nt any gears on the kind of locomotoves you guys are taking about. The side rods drove the wheels directly and, therefore, as Gwizz said, they could run just as fast in reverse as they did forward.

Only gears I know of were on the Shays, Heislers, and the other sidewinders or gear driven locos that couldn't ran any faster then about 15 MPH.

[Gwizz]

Your are correct Grindre. Steam locos don't have gear drives that could change the speed except on the climax.
It had a two speed gear box on the drive line under the boiler. The San Joaquin and Eastern RR used the higher speed for passenger runs on its' winding and steeper upper division. It used standard rod locos on the flatter lower division.

There were a few odd steam locos mostly European locos, that had gear boxes for changing speeds.

None of these locos are used in RT3 or RT2.

[nedfumpkin]

Chiming in late....

The local commuter train that runs from Hamilton to Toronto runs forward from Hamilton, but backward from Toronto. I don't think those locomotives have ever faced east since they been in service.

They have MP40s and Bi-level cars on this route, but they also use F59PHs and do the same thing. Each train has about 10 -12 cars.

[Grandma Ruth]

Boy, this is really interesting. I'm glad I asked! But I don't understand how you can drive backwards for any length of time. The trains I'm thinking of only have one engine (sorry, locomotive) at the front, so if you're going backwards how does the engine-driver see? You can't drive a train with mirrors, surely?

[nedfumpkin]

There's a person who sits in the last car and has a front view of the train as it goes backwards. I'm not sure how much control he has on the train, but his booth has some levers and buttons with lights.

[Knave]

Yes Ed, That was the adventure I was alluding to. I read that story as a young man still in elementary school and It has stuck with me ever since. I also remembered you mentioning that you lived right in the middle of where that took place. That engineer really must have liked his locomotive. He was a highly motivated man to chase after The General for five miles in work boots.

[WPandP]

Grandma Ruth -

Communication from the crew located in the caboose to the crew located in the engine cab was always an issue, whether going forward or reverse. Once radio came along, it solved a lot of those hassles, but in the days of steam they had to rely on loud whistle blasts, as far as I know. I think the caboose had a horn or bell in order to give confirming replies.

So then, when they're backtracking, running in reverse, the conductor in the caboose just needs to report the signal indications when he sees them so that the engineer can act accordingly. On straight and level track, the engineer might even be able to see the signals for himself. But, although the engine might be capable of running full speed in reverse, it probably would run slower than normal for that line, just to be sure they don't overshoot a stop signal or foul a switch.

[Grandma Ruth]

I see. And I've learned a new word, or rather the origin of a word - back-tracking. It never occurred to me to realise of course it comes from the railway term - going back over where you've been. Cool! as they say nowadays.