map in making: Lx Suburban

[brunom]

Hello again.

I struggled to decide where i should place this topic...

Attached is an incomplete early version of a scenario I am working on. It is significantly different from most i have seen here, as its base map is a city and regional reach.
Also, bronze silver or gold will depend only on preventing sacking with growing harder criteria.

So far, only the first 6 of possible 40 years of game-play are coded to a reasonable (yet beta!) standard. But i would like some quick reviews from the experts to know:
a) if it is making any sense
b) if it looks interesting

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Also (and this is why i couldn't decide where to place the topic), the map looks very dull at this stage. I DESPERATELY need help from someone with much better artistry than myself to add to this creation. Please, please, can someone do the painting? I attach a contemporary picture of the region (you can map.google Lisbon for detail as well).
Even after painting, this project is hard and will take me some time. But with such a dull looking map, it's hard to keep the motivation.

[brunom]

(yep, I am replying to my own posts)

Since the last post, I have made some effort into painting the map, and I am so proud of my evolution that I want to share a new version of the map. All comments appreciated.

Also, research on this led me to change quite a bit on the economy in the meanwhile. Hence, an all-fresh beta for testing:

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As before, a lot of coding still needs to be made, but I already place newspaper markers for the major events that are to come.
At this time it is playable, but easy and a bit dull to go the whole 40 years.

Anyway, you tell me.
And don't dare not to spend 30mins giving it a go and sharing a couple a thoughts. I place enough hours painting it to deserve a short review now

many thanks

[RayofSunshine]

Well Brunom,

I'm no expert on any portion of map-making, but I don't see anything wrong with what you have already created. And it takes time for the "paint and planting" of scenery.

I am having a problem with the "coal" delieveries. By year 4, I have delievered 1-3 loads each year. And although my 'points' toward the goals continue to be credited, there isn't any "numerical" indication of any coal being hauled.

At this point, after 5 bond issues and bonus money, I have laid track to 14 cities, including Aleges, Amadora, and Lumia, with a total of 11 pass per year, with the requirement being that of 8. Oh, and a few "sell stock" as well.

However, the new requirement is """50"""? With normal hauls of 0-3, that 50 seems on a high level. Should be interesting.

Overall, at the present, the concept of the goals are of a great challenge. Took a lot of talent and imagination. Am interested to see how this scenario unfolds.

[andy-rails]

this map is very very interesting, well i mean the part you've done and the painting is very good. Looking for the continuation! Only one queston: how can you transform a googlemap or similar to a RT3 map?

[RayofSunshine]

Well Brunon,

I guess I will let better Tycoons figure out a strategy for this scenario. The concepts of goals are unique, but after 3 attempts to get 50 pass in a year, all I got was the"head down the track boy".

With 14 cities cnn, and 16 engines+, as I added a couple more at this point, I checked all the depot's supply. Most were 1-3. A few at 6-8. However, on clicking on the passenger icon, very few cities were demanding more than 1-2. And with the RRT3 programming, a player can "custom load", but if the destination city does not have that demand, the engine just sets "waiting for the destination city to increase its demand.

And this is during a """booming"""economy. A great concept, but will have to wait for suggestions/strategies from better players, like Orange46.

[brunom]

Thank your for the time testing it, Ray of Sunshine. I have come to the conclusion 50 passengers is too much as well, and in my trials i only managed to do it once. Current state of development already has those 50 replaced by 30.

It's nice to see people thought the idea was fresh. I worried that playing this scenario could become too "directed", because you will have goals and compulsory projects popping up every 3 to 5 years. Will release a new version in a couple of days and perhaps one with the "sacking" events switched off, so people can just explore the map and timeline.

Please comment on gameplay as well: hard to find towns? hard to build track? how are costs and locos availability (all tweaked)? What was the feel about building track inside the city? how does the economy look?

Finally, as for making maps out of google.map. I didn't, andybis. I used real height maps, which i got from some geography database, then ran that in a program called Microdem, and then the output of that program needs to go through PaintShopPro to be saved in the right format for RRT3. I think i read about the technique somewhere in this site. Can't really go specific as i I had the map in stand-by for a while already and forgot the details in the meanwhile.

If any "good painter" finds the time to give this a peak.. I don't like the end result of "the city". Any ideas to improve that bit?

cheers to everyone

[RayofSunshine]

Will give it another try Brunon,
Once you get the new version.
I did run into the difficulty of being able to place a depot "under" the star designator for a couple cities. However, the depot was still "connected", so I wouldn't consider doing anything to change the "hill tops" on which were are located. That is part of the game, and part of the challenge.
I always seem to have a problem to get an adequate amount of revenue, so don't get too concerned about it. In this scenario, I required 4 bond issues, and 2 sell stocks to be able to lay tracks to 14 cities.
To better my revenue, I issued 4 - $500 bonds, to pay off the 11-13% bonds. Will have to see if there is a better way, even with a Booming economy.
The 1st 2 years, there wasn't much passenger movement. Hence I believe that I was penalized, so that came the 5th year for the 50 requirement, it curtailed the 3rd year penalty, and I got booted. Will have to see if I can get a better economy, although I was able to get a Booming level at the end.
I also don't know if the tallying of the coal hauled had anything to do with the flow of the game. Before the end of a coupld years, I checked the ledger, which indicated none being hauled, but just after I watched 3 coals being 'unloaded'.
Oh, I was only playing in the Medium level. Gave up playing scenario on the 1st attempt in either the Hard or Expert. I just like to have fun playing.
Will be looking for you next version.

Good Luck.

[brunom]

New beta version - i found the other to be too demanding for a beta, and i don't want my testers to be put off .
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Some more programming included in this one: - events programmed up to about 1961, plus newspaper events as markers for stuff after that.

With a hectic week at work coming up and the fifa world cup, further development is in stand-by until i find the time and your thoughts/ideas/problems steer me some more.

Many cheers to everyone and please comment/praise/criticize/suggest.
brunom

[brunom]

.. when i get the bug in, i just can't stop until i get the scenario done ..

I know i hardly gave you guys time to play beta2, but here is beta3:

-- Attachment removed --

Any comments appreciated, as always.

B

[RayofSunshine]

Hey Brunom,
Any time you come up with a new idea to enhance your creation, I believe that it will be a plus to be enjoyed by the player members. It is still in a beta stage, so just let those new ideas "fly". Makes for a more interestng and challenging scenario.

[Sugus]

Gave it (beta3) two tries today - always (because this is a must) connecting Sacavem and Vila Franca de Xira immediately at the beginning.

The first try started well, because I didn't fail to deliver the coal. The problem arised with the second job: hauling passengers from Lisbon. I fulfilled it the first year, but thereafter the limit of 30 was definiteliy to high for me.

The second try didn't not "start" at all: no coal to haul to Vila France de Xira.

Of course, I'm not a really interested in great micromanaging (and I like to be free in the way to successfully complete a map). So,I think, this scenario is "too hard" for me.

[brunom]

Yes, sugus, I agree that this scenarion doesn't give much freedom. That much is part of the idea and i know a part of the community prefer games with more leverage and possibility of making money with industry.

This one is quite the opposite and i thought of it as a fresh, out-of-the-ordinary, challenge. Still, i am aware not everyone will enjoy it.

I can also pick up the map and make a second, straight-forward, scenario, with simple haulage or money objectives, if a few people think it's worth.

Anyway, i finished programming the events. This zip is a "release-candidate". I give friendly warning again that this scenario is not so open-ended and it is quite difficult.

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As for not having coal demand in VF Xira at start, i addressed that in this version, and i think it won't happen nearly as often now. I also made it a little easier, quota's wise, than the previous versions.
And on the side note, congrats for beating Spain ;)

[Sugus]

I just downloaded the completeBETA to give it (another) try, but maybe not before the soccer final in Johannesburg.

And on the side note, congrats for beating Spain ;)

Let's hope that this was a preversion of the final!

[RayofSunshine]

Well Brunon,
I tried the next to your final version, but still have not been able to get a 30 passenger count. However, in just to get to this point of the game play, I had to take 10 bonds, which means that the revenues don't seem to be adequate to attain an operating revenue. But that is nothing new for the way I play.

Any way, To this point I have only been able to connect 14 cities, with maybe 8 engines. So as in the previous versions, I am still only able to get 24 pass hauls, as most of the hauls are of single passengers, and rarely that of 2. Hence, considering that there are the incidents of a couple trains only carrying cargo, I have not been able to get a 30 count.

Now the barb of this version is the 55 mph speed requirement. All these cities are too close to attain such an average. The only long hauls would be that of from the coal dock to the Villa, or from the coal dock in a loop wrap around to Algea via Limar, or off in that direction to close by cities.

So I have really run across some snags to attain any thing other that to "take a walk up the tracks". LOL. But a very different concept of a scenario. Will have to try again in the latest version and see if I can alter some of my playing method.

[brunom]

Ok, i admit, first versions were too hard.

I dare to say that even the full version is still difficult. But i did bring down the quotas and avg speeds a bit more, and i also changed the rule to ignore missing passengers quota if economy is in recession.

HOWEVER, i can win this everytime i test it now, so it is doable.
The trick, really, is to set a diesel to make the long haul up north with the coal, then go electric in the metropolitan area (outlined and all). The passengers limit is from OR WITHIN Lisbon, so short start-stop trips will be enough.
As a rule, i make Sacavem-VilaFrancaXira and Sacavem-Lisboa in year 1, the latter electric. Then, every year I spread the web in the metropolitan area, in electric rails, as soon as possible, selecting those that have cash cargo (such as produce, milk or lumber) first.

I can't see how you will last 20/30 years without doing this, and that way you are missing out on making a huge steel bridge with public money, or get lines financed by the military... i mean, all those neat events i programmed for you folks :D

Money wise, i don't think the game is too hard, with the extras in the first years to make it an easy start.

[RayofSunshine]

Well Brunon,
I am just a lousy player, and I do believe that you have mastered the game. The changes you have made in this 'complete' could change the previous goals. Any way, you mention the use of electric, the only 1 available is E18. This I don't understand as the 2-4-2 A1 is less expensive, has a better speed and load capability, as well as regular track less expensive than the electric. I did have to procure a bond to expand into the Lisbon area. I did put a depot at Iris, but just continued straight thru to the Villa to fill the 1st year coal requirement. The 2nd load in the 1st year, I "stopped" the coal just short of the Villa in Dec, for it to be tallied to the 2nd year. Considering that I did not stop for any sand/water amenity, the avg speed was 48 mph. And this is a long haul.

In the previous versions, I went with the U1 engine, and could only muster 24mph avg to the completion of the 30 passenger requirement. An amount of revenue was used in that version to switch all the u1s to the A1, to try and obtain the new 55 mph requirement. In this "complete" version, I paid more for the A1, as I don't know as to what the new speed requirement. Also, I will also use the A1 to see if I can get better results than with the previous versions.

But thanks for the tips.

[RayofSunshine]

Well Brunon,

I had written another "post" which it showed that it was accepted, but is not included after your comment of your last post.

Any way, the "more money" did help at the start, to get the connection between the coal dock and the Villa, rather than using a bond. That was a plus for better playing.

Everything was going well, until the 3rd year. 2 coal I watched being delivered, but did not get tallied. Hence a penalty for the year.

And the requirement of now only 6 rather than 8 passengers was a boon for an easier goal, although I didn't have a problem with the 8 in previous versions, I got another penalty, because the 5th and 6th passenger in early Dec did not get tallied.

You had mentioned that you had gotten the Gold a number of times, but for some reason, and after a few tries, some triggers or something does not seem to function all the time.

Now seeing that my last post was accepted, but did not get posted, it could be a glitch in my system as well. Will just have to wait and see if other players are having a similar problem, and what particular year it may occur.

Still some good concepts of imagination of creativity.

[brunom]

:)

Ray, a lousy player wouldn't hang around in a forum about the game. Hence, if for no other reason that this, you are far from being a lousy player, I am sure.

Electric vs. Coal:
Problem is stopping for water... Steam Locos need water. Those available, in particular, need a lot of it and stop too often. That brings down avg speed, increases operation costs and cuts passenger revenue. Even carrying less wagons and accelerating a little slower, electric locos will stop once for every 3 stops of a coal loco - that makes all the difference.
And the same with diesel. It ends up being much cheaper to run a diesel locomotive, if the trip is long enough for it to be able to gain speed.

As for stopping half-way between Sacavem and VilaFrancaXira. I have done it a few times, but you place yourself in risk of not delivering the coal every year - which only pays up if SantaIria outputs something of real value to the big city, like meat or lumber. Typical way-of-playing for me is to have the first diesel making a direct connection, and then another making SantaIria-Sacavem-SantaApolonia

I really hope you get past those first years with these pointers.
Maybe I should add an "advisor", i.e., advice popping-up during those first years.

[RayofSunshine]

That makes sense Brunon,
of which Electric makes less stops. My problem is always the lack of revenue, and hence use steam as well as regular track. Will start to incorporate the Diesel in the on-coming years.
My usual game method is to "save" my game in series e.g. when some goal has been reached. That way when, and I do say "when" the game is not going well or to my satisfaction, I can go back to the last "saved" section.
So, in the case of this scenario, I basically am saving each year, due to the initial coal requirement, then with that of the 20 passengers, and now with the speed, having just completed the 7th year.
In my previous attempts I was having a problem with getting a tally on both the coal and passengers, in I believe the 3rd or 4th year. After a couple of tries, I went back 2 saved sections, instead of just 1. Since then I have only noticed "1" instance of the tally short-changing me of 1 passenger haul.
What I did notice was in the passenger requirement. One notice gave a requirement of "30", but the ledger shows and is tallying to "20". Guess a typo error.
Now I gave it a thought, that """"maybe"""" you were going to extend the 20 to a 30 later, when there are more cities being connected. Just a guess.
I may not be a great Tycoon as some member/users, but I do have a lot of patience to try and get some method to get to the end of the requirements. Maybe not a GOLD, but the enjoyment of having played. And this scenario has a great concept of your imagination, and although I did, and probably will have more, had some problems, it is worth the time to use any avenue of play to get the most enjoyment from it.

[brunom]

Seems you are getting the hang of this particular scenario, Ray :) And if you make it with steam locos, all for the better, just goes to show it still gives enough room for different styles of play.
Events-wise, things get a little less busy as you go along, with fewer but larger must-do's.. but I won't spoil any surprise.

Thanks for the "typo" you noticed, I corrected it now . If you are still enjoying, please keep me posted on your play and your views on the scenario, so that we can make a revised final version available some time soon.

Many cheers (to Ray and everyone else willing to play-test this beta)
B