Electric engines
Electric engines
What is the advantage of using electric engines over steam or diesel engines in RT3? Besides that the electric engines don't need oil and water. Do you get more power per dollar cost of the engine than steam or diesel? Do the electric engines last longer or break down less? Is the cost of going electric worth it if you have a steam and/or diesel alternative?
Re: Electric engines
For me electric is an option I go with for diversity's sake as much as anything else, if I've been playing a lot of steam and diesel recently.OilCan wrote:What is the advantage of using electric engines over steam or diesel engines in RT3? Besides that the electric engines don't need oil and water. Do you get more power per dollar cost of the engine than steam or diesel? Do the electric engines last longer or break down less? Is the cost of going electric worth it if you have a steam and/or diesel alternative?
Other than that, the real advantage of electric as far as I can tell is the same as the basic advantage diesel has over steam: no stopping for water. This cuts the stopping down to a third of what it is for steam, which is a huge efficiency boost, and makes engines with lower acceleration more attractive.
It also seems like more modern electric engines have better acceleration and top speed potential that diesel. And it seems that electric engines are cheaper than diesel engines with comparable characteristics. So my final best analysis would be, look at the map, and if it seems like you won't need too much track and will be making lots of short runs, electric is your best bet.
Occasionally I will only electrify a few portions of my track and use both electric and diesel or steam on the same map.
Btw, I was wondering, if anybody can rationalize it, why is it so much cheaper to electrify all your track at some point than to just go over a few sections you've already built with the electric track option switched on?
Re: Electric engines
Early on, the 2D2 is a far better engine for the price than its competitors - half the cost of a Consolidation or an Atlantic. But I find that later electric engines (with the exception of the one European one whosename I can't remember - it is a counterpart to the GG1) don't hold up as well against diesel and steam. The P2, Hudson and U1 are among the best of their generation.
The biggest problem with electric track is that, once you lay it you can never convert back. So if you go electric, you will be using electric engines forever... there isn't usually enough margin of difference to make using steam or diesel engines on electric track a desireable choice.
If I recall correctly, electrics are cheaper to buy, require the same or less maintenance, never need water and can go for long stretches without oil. In most of my games I give them increased accelleration but I increase the cost of electric track maintenance manyfold. I also like to tie the cost of the engine to the amount of electricity being generated.
As an aside, why does the GG1 perform to horribly in RT3? In real life it was a fast, powerful, robust engine with a very long service life. In RT3 it is expensive, performs poorly compared to other engines (especially after the increase in car size/weight) and is best ignored completely.
The biggest problem with electric track is that, once you lay it you can never convert back. So if you go electric, you will be using electric engines forever... there isn't usually enough margin of difference to make using steam or diesel engines on electric track a desireable choice.
If I recall correctly, electrics are cheaper to buy, require the same or less maintenance, never need water and can go for long stretches without oil. In most of my games I give them increased accelleration but I increase the cost of electric track maintenance manyfold. I also like to tie the cost of the engine to the amount of electricity being generated.
As an aside, why does the GG1 perform to horribly in RT3? In real life it was a fast, powerful, robust engine with a very long service life. In RT3 it is expensive, performs poorly compared to other engines (especially after the increase in car size/weight) and is best ignored completely.
The optimist proclaims we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true." - James Branch Cabell
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Re: Electric engines
I'm glad you noticed this as well - I was really disappointed in this engine in the scenario I'm playing now (Alternate USA from the Coast to Coast expansion). I remembered it as an almost ideal loco (fast, reliable, etc) - from a map which had long, straight, flat tracks and was about reconstructing the Chinese railway. It might just as easily have been a RT2 map, now I think of it.EPH wrote:As an aside, why does the GG1 perform to horribly in RT3? In real life it was a fast, powerful, robust engine with a very long service life. In RT3 it is expensive, performs poorly compared to other engines (especially after the increase in car size/weight) and is best ignored completely.
Anyway, I had high hopes of the GG1 and now (game year 1924) I'm in the other dilemma you mentioned - do I keep on with the 2D2's or use the better steam engines on the electric track?
Re: Electric engines
Thus far, I have not found any practical advantage to use electric engines in any of the RT3 games I have played. The track is expensive, the train engines are almost or more expensive than the diesel (which is of course electric) and steam engines, their reliability and acceleration are on par with the diesel and.....the electric engines don't have cool whistles but sound like a Fiat's horn.
Unless someone on this forum can point out why an electric train engine is better, I will always choose the diesel or steam.
(Woo hoo! I noticed that I made 'watchman' status with this post. I'm looking forward to getting my lantern and billie stick from Hawk in the mail!)
Unless someone on this forum can point out why an electric train engine is better, I will always choose the diesel or steam.
(Woo hoo! I noticed that I made 'watchman' status with this post. I'm looking forward to getting my lantern and billie stick from Hawk in the mail!)
Re: Electric engines
I'll send them out Pony Express, just as soon as I can find my ponies.OilCan wrote:(Woo hoo! I noticed that I made 'watchman' status with this post. I'm looking forward to getting my lantern and billie stick from Hawk in the mail!)
Hawk
Re: Electric engines
So after entertaining myself for hours compiling an overly complicated spreadsheet of locomotives available in the game I have some dubious results to report. Let me know if they jive with experience, though judging from previous comments I'm not too hopeful.
So, if you're running in the era of say 1936-1960, I know one very popular train will be the Mallard. However, if you look at your options carefully, I believe you will discover that the E 18 is your best choice on medium and tough grades and is still not too shabby in the flats.
And if you're running a game in the 1980's or later, you'll find that your best option is the Class 103, though for a while the Shinkansen Series 0 is your best bet in the flats and for short runs requiring quick acceleration, until you get the ICE. The BR E111 is pretty nice, too.
Of course the Class A1, the V2 2-6-2, the C55 Deltic, and the HST 125 are all attractive trains as well, but I don't believe they'll be as profitable as the E 18 and the Class 103.
Gosh. It sounds like I'm saying you should ALWAYS play electric. Well, maybe I am, but hey, it's not all about power gaming, so go ahead and give your favorite diesel or steam engine a spin, too, from time to time. But if you're stuck on a tough scenario and really looking to get the gold, I think you'll be happy to go electric.
Note that from 1966 to 1970 neither the E 18 nor the Class 103 is available, so don't crash any trains and don't plan on adding any during those years if you've got a scenario that goes over that period, though of course you can still add the Shinkansen, or an E428 or even a GG1! Or you could throw a Deltic or a Class 01 4-6-2 on there. Nothing says you can't run diesel or steam on electrified track.
Unfortunately for the 2-D-2 fans out there, I think I'll have to disagree and say don't electrify before the E 18 comes available. The Eight Wheelers and the Class 500 4-6-0's you get a year after the 2-D-2 are much better engines in every situation, and worth the investment.
Of course, these results derived from a theoretical model could use some field testing. Perhaps now I need to set up idealized situations and try going electric vs steam or diesel and see which is actually more profitable after the end of a decade or so... so many ways to to fill up a day!
So, if you're running in the era of say 1936-1960, I know one very popular train will be the Mallard. However, if you look at your options carefully, I believe you will discover that the E 18 is your best choice on medium and tough grades and is still not too shabby in the flats.
And if you're running a game in the 1980's or later, you'll find that your best option is the Class 103, though for a while the Shinkansen Series 0 is your best bet in the flats and for short runs requiring quick acceleration, until you get the ICE. The BR E111 is pretty nice, too.
Of course the Class A1, the V2 2-6-2, the C55 Deltic, and the HST 125 are all attractive trains as well, but I don't believe they'll be as profitable as the E 18 and the Class 103.
Gosh. It sounds like I'm saying you should ALWAYS play electric. Well, maybe I am, but hey, it's not all about power gaming, so go ahead and give your favorite diesel or steam engine a spin, too, from time to time. But if you're stuck on a tough scenario and really looking to get the gold, I think you'll be happy to go electric.
Note that from 1966 to 1970 neither the E 18 nor the Class 103 is available, so don't crash any trains and don't plan on adding any during those years if you've got a scenario that goes over that period, though of course you can still add the Shinkansen, or an E428 or even a GG1! Or you could throw a Deltic or a Class 01 4-6-2 on there. Nothing says you can't run diesel or steam on electrified track.
Unfortunately for the 2-D-2 fans out there, I think I'll have to disagree and say don't electrify before the E 18 comes available. The Eight Wheelers and the Class 500 4-6-0's you get a year after the 2-D-2 are much better engines in every situation, and worth the investment.
Of course, these results derived from a theoretical model could use some field testing. Perhaps now I need to set up idealized situations and try going electric vs steam or diesel and see which is actually more profitable after the end of a decade or so... so many ways to to fill up a day!
Re: Electric engines
I disagree on your latter point. Though I have no hard data to prove it, the 2D2 is better for the $ than other engines. It has better grade climbing ability, pulling power and speed with 8 cars, and it costs about half as much.
A game like Japanese Miracle can be won in jig time with electrics, while steam takes a bigger capital outlay per engine.
A game like Japanese Miracle can be won in jig time with electrics, while steam takes a bigger capital outlay per engine.
The optimist proclaims we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true." - James Branch Cabell
Re: Electric engines
You know, I had a great time using 2-D-2's on the Africa map in the Campaign, so I know what you're talking about. Let me check these figures.
Okay, looks like the claims about climbing ability that this PDF has doesn't match up with what the trains show they can do when I open up a sandbox. Let me adjust things a little here... and... well, whadda ya know. I still think the Eight Wheeler is way better than the 2-D-2 for short train flat routes, but there's not denying it, the 2-D-2 is far and away the best overall train up to that point.
Still, the Class 500 4-6-0 that comes out a year later is a little better in every way. Wasn't that train added by somebody? If it doesn't come up in a scenario, there's no question, that until the the A1 and the P2 come out in 1921 and 1923 the 2-D-2 is your best bet.
Thanks for making me look at things again, I think I improved my model as a result!
The E18 and Class 103 still look like they're the best trains of their periods, but also if they're not included in a scenario, since I understand the Class 103 only shows up on European maps perhaps, then thee are many other almost as good options.
The Deltic still stands out as one of the best trains around, and the P-2, V2 4-6-0, U1, EF66, 242 A1, Class 9100, V200, VL80-T, Sm2 for short express trains on flat runs though the Shinkansen's better, the FP45, E60CP, BR E11, HST 125, Red Devil, ICE, AMD 103 Genesis, Brenner E412, and ICE all together are the only trains to play in their periods if available, and yes most of them are comparable and there are plenty of all kinds of engines here.
So back to my original point, it is still odd how much the E18 and Class 103 stand out. And crunching numbers, I wonder why I haven't gone the Shinkansen route more regularly. Even at $800K it'll pay for itself in a couple of years over what you'd save initially but eventually lose by going with a cheaper train for flat or even medium grade routes. And I'll always take a 50% return on investment!
Well, feel free to argue for your favorite train other than these three, but I'm pretty confident that they together stand as a very strong answer to the question of whether electric is worth it. Maybe I haven't penalized electrics enough for the extra cost of their track, but as far as I can tell, electric track isn't really that much more expensive that regular track, maybe 25% more, so in terms of total cost of the train I only figured after purchase price, maintenance, and fuel were figured in and dividing the extra track cost by the number of trains you'd run on a developed rail system over there course of a scenario, it was only like 10% of the total per train. Steam was penalized a little for the extra service towers and more for the extra stopping.
Okay, looks like the claims about climbing ability that this PDF has doesn't match up with what the trains show they can do when I open up a sandbox. Let me adjust things a little here... and... well, whadda ya know. I still think the Eight Wheeler is way better than the 2-D-2 for short train flat routes, but there's not denying it, the 2-D-2 is far and away the best overall train up to that point.
Still, the Class 500 4-6-0 that comes out a year later is a little better in every way. Wasn't that train added by somebody? If it doesn't come up in a scenario, there's no question, that until the the A1 and the P2 come out in 1921 and 1923 the 2-D-2 is your best bet.
Thanks for making me look at things again, I think I improved my model as a result!
The E18 and Class 103 still look like they're the best trains of their periods, but also if they're not included in a scenario, since I understand the Class 103 only shows up on European maps perhaps, then thee are many other almost as good options.
The Deltic still stands out as one of the best trains around, and the P-2, V2 4-6-0, U1, EF66, 242 A1, Class 9100, V200, VL80-T, Sm2 for short express trains on flat runs though the Shinkansen's better, the FP45, E60CP, BR E11, HST 125, Red Devil, ICE, AMD 103 Genesis, Brenner E412, and ICE all together are the only trains to play in their periods if available, and yes most of them are comparable and there are plenty of all kinds of engines here.
So back to my original point, it is still odd how much the E18 and Class 103 stand out. And crunching numbers, I wonder why I haven't gone the Shinkansen route more regularly. Even at $800K it'll pay for itself in a couple of years over what you'd save initially but eventually lose by going with a cheaper train for flat or even medium grade routes. And I'll always take a 50% return on investment!
Well, feel free to argue for your favorite train other than these three, but I'm pretty confident that they together stand as a very strong answer to the question of whether electric is worth it. Maybe I haven't penalized electrics enough for the extra cost of their track, but as far as I can tell, electric track isn't really that much more expensive that regular track, maybe 25% more, so in terms of total cost of the train I only figured after purchase price, maintenance, and fuel were figured in and dividing the extra track cost by the number of trains you'd run on a developed rail system over there course of a scenario, it was only like 10% of the total per train. Steam was penalized a little for the extra service towers and more for the extra stopping.