One thing I really missed in the RT3 editor was the ability to do math within the event triggers. RT2 let you apply mathematical operators to constants and variables (If GV2 > 2 x PV1 then ...) to give a lot of flexibilty in determining when an event would fire. This feature was not included in the RT3 editor.
The other major shortcoming of the RT3 editor was the loss of being able to track city-to-city or territory-to-territory delivery of loads. That leaves you with only being able to track loads from or loads to a place, with no way to tell whether the loads delivered to B actually came from A.
I doubt that these could be changed easily, but if they could it would open up new and useful ways to script events. I don't hold out much hope that these features will be a part of the SMR editor (it there ever is one).
RT3 Present and Future
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Grandma Ruth
- CEO
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- Location: West Yorkshire, England
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Having read the comments about Railroads, I'm not sure I'll even buy it now so unless somebody gets me it for Christmas I'll stick with RT2 & RT3!
Here's my thoughts, for what they're worth:
Technical difficulties:
This might be just because of my old computer, but I've found RT3 incredibly slow - slow to load, slow to play, and slow to process events. I'm just doing a new scenario on RT2 and the difference is unbelievable!
Graphics:
I'm not much bothered about graphics but the one thing I did like about RT2 is the way the buildings are animated - although there's some movement in RT3, there's nothing like the interest of RT2.
I find the resolution very poor - partly because I have to have it on low in order for it to work at all, even at slow speed.
Track:
I like the bridges/tunnels/overpasses and the "delete/escape track lay" facility. I prefer to have the maintenance facilities, etc, in the stations as in RT2, and I think there doesn't seem to be the same control over track-laying. I found it very hard to get used to and I don't like not being able to put the track where I want, even if it's not the best route.
Trains:
I'd like more control over the cargoes: you should be able to carry unprofitable cargo if you want. It should only take profitable stuff when it's on automatic, but if you specify a cargo it shouldn't refuse to take it.
In RT2 you could take cargo through a station without dropping it off, in order to reach another station further down the line. I would like to see this brought back.
Economy:
I like industry! I know some people don't but I do. I like the way stuff moves around on waterways, etc and the way the supply-and-demand operates. I don't know enough about real-world business to comment on the realism of the stock exchange, but it seems fine to me.
EDITOR:
AI's:
They're not very aggressive, are they? It needs a lot of tampering with AI companies to make them real opponents (see Dash for Cash!). I'd like them beefing up a bit, but keep the options in the Editor to set their level.
Graphics:
I'd like the option to switch off aeroplanes, storms, and what not.
Variables:
I've not been able to get really into these as yet but the ability to do maths with them sounds very interesting. I've got one counting in my new RT2 game which works well.
Territories:
I'd like to be able to delete territories. Due to my technical problems, I mostly use existing scenarios and you can't delete the territories, only change the borders. Also there aren't enough! I don't know if this would be technically feasible, but instead of having visible/invisible borders, could you have two sets of territories, one geographical - which could be "plumbed in", I suppose - and one for events?
General:
I've had a difficulty - which I've solved with everyone's help - in not being able to see what I'm typing. Don't know why this is, but it should be fixed.
Overall, I like the RT2 editor far better, it's much easier to work with. Only two things would improve it - a drop-down list for triggers and the facility to copy events.
MAP-MAKER:
Mine doesn't work - don't know why, but it CTD's every time. So I'd like some base maps included in the game. I know we've got them from each other, but as I can't access these, either, I'm completely stymied!
CAMPAIGN:
This is someone else's idea I read somewhere, which I like - how about a campaign where you transfer either your company wealth or your own personal wealth from scenario to scenario? Maybe even a facility to enter the starting amount at start-up - this could be a cheat but who'd cheat themselves?
MULTI-PLAYER:
Again, due to my poor technology, I don't have the option for this. I'm not on broadband and I can't see it working otherwise.
Very interesting discussion and it would be great if it actually helped in creating RT4 !!!!!!!!!!!
Here's my thoughts, for what they're worth:
Technical difficulties:
This might be just because of my old computer, but I've found RT3 incredibly slow - slow to load, slow to play, and slow to process events. I'm just doing a new scenario on RT2 and the difference is unbelievable!
Graphics:
I'm not much bothered about graphics but the one thing I did like about RT2 is the way the buildings are animated - although there's some movement in RT3, there's nothing like the interest of RT2.
I find the resolution very poor - partly because I have to have it on low in order for it to work at all, even at slow speed.
Track:
I like the bridges/tunnels/overpasses and the "delete/escape track lay" facility. I prefer to have the maintenance facilities, etc, in the stations as in RT2, and I think there doesn't seem to be the same control over track-laying. I found it very hard to get used to and I don't like not being able to put the track where I want, even if it's not the best route.
Trains:
I'd like more control over the cargoes: you should be able to carry unprofitable cargo if you want. It should only take profitable stuff when it's on automatic, but if you specify a cargo it shouldn't refuse to take it.
In RT2 you could take cargo through a station without dropping it off, in order to reach another station further down the line. I would like to see this brought back.
Economy:
I like industry! I know some people don't but I do. I like the way stuff moves around on waterways, etc and the way the supply-and-demand operates. I don't know enough about real-world business to comment on the realism of the stock exchange, but it seems fine to me.
EDITOR:
AI's:
They're not very aggressive, are they? It needs a lot of tampering with AI companies to make them real opponents (see Dash for Cash!). I'd like them beefing up a bit, but keep the options in the Editor to set their level.
Graphics:
I'd like the option to switch off aeroplanes, storms, and what not.
Variables:
I've not been able to get really into these as yet but the ability to do maths with them sounds very interesting. I've got one counting in my new RT2 game which works well.
Territories:
I'd like to be able to delete territories. Due to my technical problems, I mostly use existing scenarios and you can't delete the territories, only change the borders. Also there aren't enough! I don't know if this would be technically feasible, but instead of having visible/invisible borders, could you have two sets of territories, one geographical - which could be "plumbed in", I suppose - and one for events?
General:
I've had a difficulty - which I've solved with everyone's help - in not being able to see what I'm typing. Don't know why this is, but it should be fixed.
Overall, I like the RT2 editor far better, it's much easier to work with. Only two things would improve it - a drop-down list for triggers and the facility to copy events.
MAP-MAKER:
Mine doesn't work - don't know why, but it CTD's every time. So I'd like some base maps included in the game. I know we've got them from each other, but as I can't access these, either, I'm completely stymied!
CAMPAIGN:
This is someone else's idea I read somewhere, which I like - how about a campaign where you transfer either your company wealth or your own personal wealth from scenario to scenario? Maybe even a facility to enter the starting amount at start-up - this could be a cheat but who'd cheat themselves?
MULTI-PLAYER:
Again, due to my poor technology, I don't have the option for this. I'm not on broadband and I can't see it working otherwise.
Very interesting discussion and it would be great if it actually helped in creating RT4 !!!!!!!!!!!
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Grandma Ruth
- CEO
- Posts: 1237
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:17 am
- Location: West Yorkshire, England
- Contact:
First, let me say thanks to those who have made maps/scenarios. Not only are they enjoyable, but they often inspire a new way to do something in a map I'd been working on.
Second, I believe some RT2 map makers may have given up due to the comparitive limitations of RT3's editor. I don't think (IMHO) it was just the loss of the mathmatical features, but the additional loss of the effect to "Set (variable whatever) To The Trigger Result". Obviosly, this effect is useless without the math, as the 'result' is only either "0" (false) or "1" (true).
Come to think of it... If I remember correctly, RT2 had the option to "Always Trigger Event" (or something like that). Basicly, the events trigger result would be 'ZERO', (normally false & therefore don't set the effects); but with "always trigger" selected, you would re-set your variable to zero. This was used quite a bit, as I recall.
Third, I agree with Grandma Ruth as to additional things to disable, although I beleive dis-ableing storms should only apply to 'random weather' and not ones triggered by events.
I once suggested we needed a way to shutoff the train arrival notice messages. Many of us often reach 200+ trains
and the notices come and go so fast as to be meaningless; often obscuring information on opponants financial activities in the process. IMHO, these notices also have a detrimental effect on the frame-rate & speed of the game.
Of course an option to keep displaying specific trains' notices would probably be requested.
I'll also second (or third or etc) the Idea of breaking down the territory access the way it was in RT2. This would essentially allow an Amtrak-like company to have 'trackage rights' (run trains only) but little else. Or, for that matter, a J. Paul Getty to corner the 'Oil Well'-'Refinery' markets; but ignore trains alltogether.
I kinda like the company being able to buy industries, but I also agree that you should be able to buy/build an industry with your personal money.
Even in RT2, there was a lot of information which the game had, but to which we did not have access, RT3 seems to have evem more.
Personal 'wish list' idea: To be able to customize the various 'niceities' sayings and whatnot on a per-map basis. ie. AZrail rat(?) could have included a list of historical newspaper harelds & sidebar headlines for his scenario. These could have added a local flavor and feel for the game (or even a few easter-egg-like hints.)
And finally To Grandma Ruth:
Some of your more technical difficulties may well be due to your computer. When RT3 came out, I had to upgrade my graphis card to use the MapBuilder program and/or even use the "create from heightmap" part of the editor. I know this may sound dumb (I thought so too, with apologies and appriciation to Gwizz those many moons ago), but it was true. Too many games these days are designed for the 'biggest and brightest' computers - which most of us will never have.
With territories... do you mean RT2 or RT3? I forget about RT2, but in RT3 the 24 territories technically always exist, if you completely overmark a territory with another, the old one will 'grey out' on the list as unused. I haven't noticed any problems with this, but i could be wrong.
Hope I've helped a little. (if you havn't dozed off yet
)
Second, I believe some RT2 map makers may have given up due to the comparitive limitations of RT3's editor. I don't think (IMHO) it was just the loss of the mathmatical features, but the additional loss of the effect to "Set (variable whatever) To The Trigger Result". Obviosly, this effect is useless without the math, as the 'result' is only either "0" (false) or "1" (true).
Come to think of it... If I remember correctly, RT2 had the option to "Always Trigger Event" (or something like that). Basicly, the events trigger result would be 'ZERO', (normally false & therefore don't set the effects); but with "always trigger" selected, you would re-set your variable to zero. This was used quite a bit, as I recall.
Third, I agree with Grandma Ruth as to additional things to disable, although I beleive dis-ableing storms should only apply to 'random weather' and not ones triggered by events.
I once suggested we needed a way to shutoff the train arrival notice messages. Many of us often reach 200+ trains
and the notices come and go so fast as to be meaningless; often obscuring information on opponants financial activities in the process. IMHO, these notices also have a detrimental effect on the frame-rate & speed of the game.Of course an option to keep displaying specific trains' notices would probably be requested.
I'll also second (or third or etc) the Idea of breaking down the territory access the way it was in RT2. This would essentially allow an Amtrak-like company to have 'trackage rights' (run trains only) but little else. Or, for that matter, a J. Paul Getty to corner the 'Oil Well'-'Refinery' markets; but ignore trains alltogether.
I kinda like the company being able to buy industries, but I also agree that you should be able to buy/build an industry with your personal money.
Even in RT2, there was a lot of information which the game had, but to which we did not have access, RT3 seems to have evem more.
Personal 'wish list' idea: To be able to customize the various 'niceities' sayings and whatnot on a per-map basis. ie. AZrail rat(?) could have included a list of historical newspaper harelds & sidebar headlines for his scenario. These could have added a local flavor and feel for the game (or even a few easter-egg-like hints.)
And finally To Grandma Ruth:
Some of your more technical difficulties may well be due to your computer. When RT3 came out, I had to upgrade my graphis card to use the MapBuilder program and/or even use the "create from heightmap" part of the editor. I know this may sound dumb (I thought so too, with apologies and appriciation to Gwizz those many moons ago), but it was true. Too many games these days are designed for the 'biggest and brightest' computers - which most of us will never have.
With territories... do you mean RT2 or RT3? I forget about RT2, but in RT3 the 24 territories technically always exist, if you completely overmark a territory with another, the old one will 'grey out' on the list as unused. I haven't noticed any problems with this, but i could be wrong.
Hope I've helped a little. (if you havn't dozed off yet
)
Quote:
Maybe we will get lucky and someone will win the lottery and buy the rights to RRT3 so it can be fixed.
Gwizz, I have some wonderful news that I must tell you about. I just won about US$50.00 in the lottery. Should we put in a bid for RT3?
Maybe we will get lucky and someone will win the lottery and buy the rights to RRT3 so it can be fixed.
Gwizz, I have some wonderful news that I must tell you about. I just won about US$50.00 in the lottery. Should we put in a bid for RT3?
The man who has no imagination has no wings. (Muhammad Ali)
Thanks, everyone! I'm putting all of your suggestions into a spreadsheet along with some of the better ideas off the ExpressWorld RT4 wishlist; next step is to figure out which of these are realistically possible to implement in the next two or three months. Adding signals, for example, is probably a lost cause; merging maintenance buildings into stations is already possible through scenario events; and enabling shipping at a loss is trivial code-wise but will require some careful testing to make sure it doesn't, say, give the AIs a brand-new way to torpedo themselves. At a quick glance I think we might be able to pull off about a third of the list, more if I'm crazy enough to glue a script engine into the works.
It already looks as if multiplayer is a nonissue - guess that's what SMRR is for - which should make patches easier to develop and test.
At least four of the ideas need someone who can construct and texture 3D models. I'll need a volunteer if we elect to implement any of those. I'll also be looking to you to help test what comes out of this, because there's far more that can go wrong when modifying basic gameplay than there was just turning on half-baked parts of the editor.
Lastly, schedule could be a little ragged on this - things have gotten bad enough at my current company that I'm searching for a new job, and am not sure what my free time will look like for the next few weeks.
It already looks as if multiplayer is a nonissue - guess that's what SMRR is for - which should make patches easier to develop and test.
At least four of the ideas need someone who can construct and texture 3D models. I'll need a volunteer if we elect to implement any of those. I'll also be looking to you to help test what comes out of this, because there's far more that can go wrong when modifying basic gameplay than there was just turning on half-baked parts of the editor.
Lastly, schedule could be a little ragged on this - things have gotten bad enough at my current company that I'm searching for a new job, and am not sure what my free time will look like for the next few weeks.
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bombardiere
- Dispatcher
- Posts: 425
- Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:07 am
- Location: Turku, Finland
Naturally, I am interested in. I can do some some skinning and I understand how the industry and engine files work. I am willing to learn 3D files too, but I need help there. I need someone to figure how it is possible to convert the game files to a format, which a major 3D program understand.
Off course I have limited time too. That is life I guess.
P.S. Milo I have been updating the engines. Later we could discuss out the update. Or if there will be a major update/patch, locos could be included there.
Off course I have limited time too. That is life I guess.
P.S. Milo I have been updating the engines. Later we could discuss out the update. Or if there will be a major update/patch, locos could be included there.
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Wolverine@MSU
- CEO
- Posts: 1166
- Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:14 pm
- Location: East Lansing, MI
Something that I would find extremely useful, and would be of use to scenario developers, would be the ability to output data to a logfile. I'm thinking about things like event monitoring; the current editor only shows the results of the first few events and you can't scroll to see the entire list. In scenarios with lots of events it can be a nightmare to try and troubleshoot events if you can't see what's happening. The cargo screen in the event editor would also be useful to have recorded on an annual basis.
It would also be useful to output cargo stats, such as those displayed on the "Trains", "Industries", "Cargo" and "Station" categories in the player ledger. Perhaps it could be designed as a "stand alone" application that could be run in the background to capture the data and output it to a logfile. A simple text file would be sufficient. Actually, all the data in the ledger could be useful, so if there was a way to dump all the text that is displayed in the annual ledger to a file it would be a great help.
It would also be useful to output cargo stats, such as those displayed on the "Trains", "Industries", "Cargo" and "Station" categories in the player ledger. Perhaps it could be designed as a "stand alone" application that could be run in the background to capture the data and output it to a logfile. A simple text file would be sufficient. Actually, all the data in the ledger could be useful, so if there was a way to dump all the text that is displayed in the annual ledger to a file it would be a great help.
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Grandma Ruth
- CEO
- Posts: 1237
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:17 am
- Location: West Yorkshire, England
- Contact:
milo, after reading a post by canis39 in MrScotts' logo thread, I remembered two semi-related items:
1. AIs using the same logo - that green keystone with the odd graphic. I beleive it started happening with the 1.04 beta/ CtoC version, which also added the ability for custom logos.
2. When custom logos are used, they don't line-up properly in the message line (about connections, bonds, etc.) for that railroad.
I realize these are more 'nuisanse' than some other items, but I wouldn't think they would be that hard to fix.
1. AIs using the same logo - that green keystone with the odd graphic. I beleive it started happening with the 1.04 beta/ CtoC version, which also added the ability for custom logos.
2. When custom logos are used, they don't line-up properly in the message line (about connections, bonds, etc.) for that railroad.
I realize these are more 'nuisanse' than some other items, but I wouldn't think they would be that hard to fix.
There are three main things that disappointed me with RT3 and the number 1 is the reason I didn't do more maps.
1. It took over a year to fix one small problem. This was pre-built players lost all the stock in pre-built companies in a game. So you could make a player the CEO of a company but he wouldn't have any stock in it when the game began. This held up my Trans-Siberian map for over a year and I didn't build any more maps until it was fixed. To make matters worse I was a playtester in RT3 from the beginning and I pointed it out many times. And they almost released CtC with the bug until I sent email directly to Phil complaining of this.
2. The wasted time watching the watering tower fill the train and the maintenance non-sense.
3. The flowing streaming hopping cargo. The overall theory isn't so bad, but given that cargo will readily flow in any direction they should have thought of some other realistic limiting factors. Like there's only so many cargo wagons, trucks, barges that are willing to move some cargo at $1 a month one cell. Like industries storing a few months supply of this cargo should the flow suddenly be interrupted. Station add-on buildings could also dam up the flow. Someway to better control what gets on your trains so that your trains don't saturate a city or strip your own industries of their raw cargo. Those things of course wouldn't be noticed in the first version but would take time to be figured out.
1. It took over a year to fix one small problem. This was pre-built players lost all the stock in pre-built companies in a game. So you could make a player the CEO of a company but he wouldn't have any stock in it when the game began. This held up my Trans-Siberian map for over a year and I didn't build any more maps until it was fixed. To make matters worse I was a playtester in RT3 from the beginning and I pointed it out many times. And they almost released CtC with the bug until I sent email directly to Phil complaining of this.
2. The wasted time watching the watering tower fill the train and the maintenance non-sense.
3. The flowing streaming hopping cargo. The overall theory isn't so bad, but given that cargo will readily flow in any direction they should have thought of some other realistic limiting factors. Like there's only so many cargo wagons, trucks, barges that are willing to move some cargo at $1 a month one cell. Like industries storing a few months supply of this cargo should the flow suddenly be interrupted. Station add-on buildings could also dam up the flow. Someway to better control what gets on your trains so that your trains don't saturate a city or strip your own industries of their raw cargo. Those things of course wouldn't be noticed in the first version but would take time to be figured out.