One topic that came up during modding discussions was the effort required to turn RT3 into what we hoped for RT4. Given that we don't have the source code, it might actually involve equal or less effort to build a new game than to extend the existing one. However, the new game would likely have its own problems, would necessarily have to diverge enough from the old one to stand on its own, and would >not< use a completely open development-by-committee process - see the progress of Transport Empire for a cautionary tale.
[BTW, before the modders panic - this is about the direction long-term development should take, not about what we're doing now!]
New game or fixed game?
I don't really know, but there's one way to find out. :)canis39 wrote:Do you think it's actually possible for this community to create a new game?
The Transport Empire project did identify some existing open-source game engines, which might be able to save us some time. We seem to have several enthusiastic model-builders, at least a couple of entry-level coders, and a vast amount of collective knowledge on how historical railroads worked. We'd have to spend a lot more time putting the graphical assets together, but we'd also save a lot of time spent in understanding how RT3 works and how to attach new bits to it. The new game would come with >no< scenarios - the file formats wouldn't be backwards-compatible with RT3 - so we'd have to put those together too.
[There's a personal reason to research this as well - I'm not sure how the firm I'm joining in March will feel about my extracurricular activities...]
I voted for fixing RT3.
I caught a virus or crashed my 40G hard drive and had to switch to the big one.
Can't seem to clean or fix the small one so maybe a new computer is my best way to go. Then maybe getting XP, I can run some of my new programs.
I'm still planning on doing art work for RT3.
Either way I'm interested.
I caught a virus or crashed my 40G hard drive and had to switch to the big one.
Can't seem to clean or fix the small one so maybe a new computer is my best way to go. Then maybe getting XP, I can run some of my new programs.
I'm still planning on doing art work for RT3.
Either way I'm interested.
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bombardiere
- Dispatcher
- Posts: 425
- Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:07 am
- Location: Turku, Finland
I voted fix RRT3 also. I doubt I have skills, time or willingness to put an effort for this kind of project. I really don't know what this Transport Empire is. For example how much effort they are making for 3D models? I checked the web site, but couldn't find a simple explenation on what they are doing... If it si based on Transport Tycoon deluxe, that is really yesterday's news.
If there would be a source code, yeah may be, but now.....
If there would be a source code, yeah may be, but now.....
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AZ Rail Rat
- Dispatcher
- Posts: 302
- Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:56 pm
- Location: Arizona
- Contact:
Looks like I'm in the minority here (what else is new). I would like to see a "next generation" set of graphics. Something closer to MSTS train and building realism and scale, but with RRT3 flora, ground textures, GUI operational (mouse zoom, rotate, etc.) and map making capabilities. That's why I voted to "start over".
I can't help but think the economic simulation could not improve with some new form of programming developed over the past few years. In order for most computers to handle the better graphics, it needs to be cleaned up to not take up so much processing time.
Finally (in addition to all our DREAM fixes), I would like to see a much more realistic dispatching system, but not so complicated that it turns it into a simulation instead of a game. In fact, that change would be most useful in a multiplayer environment. There could be players who do not have a railroad company, but are the outside influences such as banker, government, military, dispatcher, broker/agent, etc.
OK ENOUGH ALREADY - It ain't going to happen
(unless one of you out there won the PowerBall and plan on hiring us all at AT LEAST the lifestyle to which we have become accustomed, and for some of us, a notch or two better :P :P :P ).
I can't help but think the economic simulation could not improve with some new form of programming developed over the past few years. In order for most computers to handle the better graphics, it needs to be cleaned up to not take up so much processing time.
Finally (in addition to all our DREAM fixes), I would like to see a much more realistic dispatching system, but not so complicated that it turns it into a simulation instead of a game. In fact, that change would be most useful in a multiplayer environment. There could be players who do not have a railroad company, but are the outside influences such as banker, government, military, dispatcher, broker/agent, etc.
OK ENOUGH ALREADY - It ain't going to happen
(unless one of you out there won the PowerBall and plan on hiring us all at AT LEAST the lifestyle to which we have become accustomed, and for some of us, a notch or two better :P :P :P ).
I just joined this forum a couple of days ago. I voted to improve RRT3 also. But it is my sincere hope that anything that is done with the game keep those of us who use Macs in mind. As I see it, we are all interested in this game, and I wish the old 'which platform is better' argument wouldn't get in the way.
aasta
aasta
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acorn_farmer_84
- Brakeman
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:50 am
i say fix Railroad Tycoon 3,
sure, creating a whole new game would be ideal,
however i doubt we would be able to create a 3-d style game form scratch,
Simutrans and stuff have massive communities working on them,
and have been going for a while,
yet they are still 2d, though i must admit i think the gameplay is in many ways better than RT3),
:)
sure, creating a whole new game would be ideal,
however i doubt we would be able to create a 3-d style game form scratch,
Simutrans and stuff have massive communities working on them,
and have been going for a while,
yet they are still 2d, though i must admit i think the gameplay is in many ways better than RT3),
:)
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Canadian Viking
- Brakeman
- Posts: 171
- Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 11:46 am
- Location: Alberta, Canada
I'm voting for a new game for several reasons. By the time another year or two go by, we should have more advances in graphics that can produce a better looking game. The next generation game needs to be more multi-player friendly. And the list of possible game improvements is long enough to be challenging to a developer. But in order to recover their development costs, the designer will have to charge new game prices. Giving out free patches won't pay your costs, and charging for an add-on to a game that wasn't a big hit won't work financially either.
RT3 is a fine game. But at first play it seemed to work much differently than the earlier Railroad Tycoons, so the early publicity wasn't very favorable and didn't help the game sales really take off. Those of us who stuck with the game came to appreciate the new economic model and car-loading capabilities. The next time around customers will be comparing to a different standard and will need to be attracted quickly by the game play.
I think a new game has potential to be marketed to schools as an aid for teaching history and financial markets. Those things would need to be taught in short scenarios, not 25 - 50 year ones. But if the game could be successfully marketed that way, it would really boost sales. And then if kids like it in school, even more games will be sold. That could make someone into a real tycoon!
RT3 is a fine game. But at first play it seemed to work much differently than the earlier Railroad Tycoons, so the early publicity wasn't very favorable and didn't help the game sales really take off. Those of us who stuck with the game came to appreciate the new economic model and car-loading capabilities. The next time around customers will be comparing to a different standard and will need to be attracted quickly by the game play.
I think a new game has potential to be marketed to schools as an aid for teaching history and financial markets. Those things would need to be taught in short scenarios, not 25 - 50 year ones. But if the game could be successfully marketed that way, it would really boost sales. And then if kids like it in school, even more games will be sold. That could make someone into a real tycoon!
I was leaning heavily toward voting for patches, but in the end I selected a new game. I am enjoying creating new content for the game, but what I don't like is how difficult it is, and there are still things we cannot do that we ought to be able to.
So, my thinking is that a fan-community-created new game could potentially be mostly open-source. In fact, you might not create the game so much as create the tools to make the game... create the equivalent of a 3DP editor, for instance, and let the mod community go at it, creating all the content. Trainz kind of works this way; while they give you a fair amount of default content to begin with, they count on you going to the Download Station to get more goodies.
I agree with others, in that modern computers can handle games with greater memory and processing requirements, so we could do away with limits to user-created content. And the 3D models could be a little more detailed, though as a strategic game I don't think it needs to be unduly encumbered with flashy graphics. But a new game would afford opportunities to include features which simply cannot be modded into RRT3.
Of course, for a new game which is a commercial venture, how would you determine which contributors earn what percentages, or who the actual publisher is? Would you perhaps set up a system whereby content creators get a small amount whenever their content is downloaded, and the programmer(s) who built the software tool used to create the content also get a little bit, such that there never is a central "company" to take in the revenues? Just wondering.
So, my thinking is that a fan-community-created new game could potentially be mostly open-source. In fact, you might not create the game so much as create the tools to make the game... create the equivalent of a 3DP editor, for instance, and let the mod community go at it, creating all the content. Trainz kind of works this way; while they give you a fair amount of default content to begin with, they count on you going to the Download Station to get more goodies.
I agree with others, in that modern computers can handle games with greater memory and processing requirements, so we could do away with limits to user-created content. And the 3D models could be a little more detailed, though as a strategic game I don't think it needs to be unduly encumbered with flashy graphics. But a new game would afford opportunities to include features which simply cannot be modded into RRT3.
Of course, for a new game which is a commercial venture, how would you determine which contributors earn what percentages, or who the actual publisher is? Would you perhaps set up a system whereby content creators get a small amount whenever their content is downloaded, and the programmer(s) who built the software tool used to create the content also get a little bit, such that there never is a central "company" to take in the revenues? Just wondering.
=Winchester, Paston & Portsmouth=
====== We Provide Pride! ======
====== We Provide Pride! ======
I have an idea that once you start talking money and who gets what-Then that's when the trouble starts. But as has been said elsewhere, I think that since we have so many gifted, motivated people who want to improve the game the framework for an evolved or greatly modified version will eventually develop. I hope so at any rate.
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proudcanadian
- Conductor
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:01 pm
- Location: Sault Ste. Marie, ON, Canada
Personally, while RT3 may have its flaws, I still find it a very intruiging game and great to play over and over again. And while a new game could fix many of the flaws of the game, I think there is still a lot in the old game that could be expanded on, and we could still keep playing without attempting to completely overhaul it. So I vote to fix the game
I don't drive a dogsled to work, I don't live in an igloo, and we're the SECOND LARGEST COUNTRY ON EARTH!!!
[/quote]the new economic model and car-loading capabilities.[/quote]
Okay, Canadian Viking, at the risk of my looking like a dope, would you mind explaining just what you referred to above. I'm just not sure what it is you mean.
And one thing that I'll risk saying about car-loading capabilities (hoping that we're talking about somewhat the same thing, is that with the flags in RT2 I often managed to leave a particular cargo at a station for later pick-up. So far as I've been able to tell, that feature is missing entirely from RT3, no? At least, I think I've read posts mentioning that shortcoming.
Just hoping to learn a little something here.
aasta
Okay, Canadian Viking, at the risk of my looking like a dope, would you mind explaining just what you referred to above. I'm just not sure what it is you mean.
And one thing that I'll risk saying about car-loading capabilities (hoping that we're talking about somewhat the same thing, is that with the flags in RT2 I often managed to leave a particular cargo at a station for later pick-up. So far as I've been able to tell, that feature is missing entirely from RT3, no? At least, I think I've read posts mentioning that shortcoming.
Just hoping to learn a little something here.
aasta
I have a lot of time to offer, but not much experience, nor talent, I'm sure. And to possibly complicate things further, I use a Mac. But I'll ask anyway, how can I contribute to this project? Which programs would I need. Where do I find instructions and such?WPandP wrote: (snip) I am enjoying creating new content for the game, but what I don't like is how difficult it is, and there are still things we cannot do that we ought to be able to.
I'm not able to afford expensive programs like Photoshop or such, and have no experience with them. Is it still possible for me to contribute?
[/quote]I agree with others, in that modern computers can handle games with greater memory and processing requirements, so we could do away with limits to user-created content.[/quote]
I'd like to say that I think it would be a good thing if a community like this one would still try to keep in mind those who may be constrained by (family?) money matters, etc., to using older computers. Whatever the solution for that consideration may be, I don't know, but it's a nice thing to not leave folks out.
[/quote]And the 3D models could be a little more detailed, though as a strategic game I don't think it needs to be unduly encumbered with flashy graphics.[/quote]
I suppose I agree, basically. But I'm very dissatisfied with the inability to make really very good-looking maps in RT3 as compared with RT2. To me, they usually look washed-out and I think that's a bit boring.
aasta