Why do my buildings show zero production/consumption?

[Wooly]

I am really perplexed about something in the game. I have played several scenarios since Christmas time (when I bought the game), and I can't not make heads or tails of the production and consumption of buildings for raw materials or industry. When I click on the building the numbers for goods produced, consumed, or both, often show zero, even when I am hauling tons of freight between them. I thought it might just be a display glitch, that the goods are being produced and consumed, but you also see the profitibility of the building low or negative even when it is supplied or carried away more than adequately. What is going on? How come I can ship tons of freight to and from buildings and it doesn't show up in the consumption and production stats for the building? It drives me crazy. I have checked the cars going from raw material centers and to industry, and they are often 50% to 100% full, and I get paid at delivery. I know the cargo is moving. I really need to see the production and consumption so I know how to manage my consists, build more industry, etc. It's not this way with every building in every scenario, but it's that way with most of them.

Also, I running v1.05 on Vista, if that matters to this question.

[Hawk]

I can't really answer your questions but there might be a couple of folks on this forum that would be interested in how you got the 1.05 patch installed on Vista (no, I'm not one of them ).

[Gwizz]

Since MS lost a lawsuit and owes a billion dollar fee, maybe they are looking for some one to pay this for them and don't realize that you are not running a real company.

I've also had a differcult time understanding industrial numbers.
But in real life the industrials numbers don't alway end up making much sense.

I'm just not sure how Poptop made this happen in RT3.

[Wooly]

I think it's a graphics card issue. The laptop I have it on is an ATI card. My home PC is NVidia. I am think that may be the culprit. I have tried both Vista Home and Business on the laptop, and both work with 1.05, with the ATI card. But 1.05 doesn't worth with the same OS with NVidia. I know my home PC uses DirectX10, and I think the laptop does too, since it's less than a year old. It irks me too, because my home PC is new with nice hardware I picked out, and now I can't utilize it. I have an older comp right next to it though, and I am in the process of wiping the HD's clean and reinstalling XP just to run this game. The hardware is OK, but what I shame I can't use what I paid for. Stupid Vista! I am stuck using Vista though, for work and school reasons.

[Wooly]

Since MS lost a lawsuit and owes a billion dollar fee, maybe they are looking for some one to pay this for them and don't realize that you are not running a real company.

I've also had a differcult time understanding industrial numbers.
But in real life the industrials numbers don't alway end up making much sense.

I'm just not sure how Poptop made this happen in RT3.

Well I wouldn't put it past them. They have to crush even fake, game simulation business too eh?

So, does that mean you have seen the zero production/consumption numbers too? I really need to know how much to be sending to and from my buildings to make them profitable, but to not waste cargo either. I guess I can just keep checking volume at my stations to get a sense of how much is being supplied, and profitibility at industries to know if they are adequate supplied, but that seems so dumb, when the stats should just tell me. Also, why don't they just show you how much of a cargo you have hauled in a year, rather than show 2.3 consumed and 2.3 produced. That doesn't tell you how much more you actually bringing.

[WPandP]

So, does that mean you have seen the zero production/consumption numbers too? I really need to know how much to be sending to and from my buildings to make them profitable, but to not waste cargo either. I guess I can just keep checking volume at my stations to get a sense of how much is being supplied, and profitibility at industries to know if they are adequate supplied, but that seems so dumb, when the stats should just tell me. Also, why don't they just show you how much of a cargo you have hauled in a year, rather than show 2.3 consumed and 2.3 produced. That doesn't tell you how much more you actually bringing.

I haven't seen the zero numbers thing, but then I'm not a Vista player. However, I just wanted to comment that the industries don't have any means of counting the loads that you've hauled for them. The way the economy model works, industries sort of don't care how materials get to them, and they don't care where it goes after they produce it. They just sit there and convert whatever comes their way. Thus, the input/output numbers; these can be useful if you're considering buying up industries, or if you think it is time to upgrade.

Your loads don't really get delivered "to" an industry; rather, it gets delivered to a station, and it makes its way on its own from the station to the industry. It is as if every load went to a Freight House, and everybody sent trucks (or mule teams) down to pick up their stuff from your freight house. This is one area where the game could be vastly improved, if there was a way to gain contracts with certain industries, and you had to build spurs out right to them (i.e. they functioned as little stations, listing only a few cargo types) and serve them all directly. Such is not the case.

[Wooly]

I haven't seen the zero numbers thing, but then I'm not a Vista player. However, I just wanted to comment that the industries don't have any means of counting the loads that you've hauled for them. The way the economy model works, industries sort of don't care how materials get to them, and they don't care where it goes after they produce it. They just sit there and convert whatever comes their way. Thus, the input/output numbers; these can be useful if you're considering buying up industries, or if you think it is time to upgrade.

Your loads don't really get delivered "to" an industry; rather, it gets delivered to a station, and it makes its way on its own from the station to the industry. It is as if every load went to a Freight House, and everybody sent trucks (or mule teams) down to pick up their stuff from your freight house. This is one area where the game could be vastly improved, if there was a way to gain contracts with certain industries, and you had to build spurs out right to them (i.e. they functioned as little stations, listing only a few cargo types) and serve them all directly. Such is not the case.

Well now, how am I supposed to be a real tycoon if I can't some vertical and horizontal consolidation!

[Hawk]

Wooly - Which version of RT3 did you get? The Atari release or the Pop Top release?
The Atari release has only one cd and comes with 1.05 pre-installed, but it doesn't come with the Coast to Coast Expansion.

[JayEff]

Wooly, consumption, production and profit are affected by all prices in the industry chain. Industries 'buy' the cargoes that they consume and pay the price that exits on the square they occupy. Their income is equal to cargoes produced multiplied by price. If the price is close to or less than the price of the raw materials, the factory will reduce production or even drop to zero. There is also an overhead cost component. Speed of production is also affected by the state of the economy.

Rate of production is affected by economy state, the price difference of raw vs finished product, and events.

[Wooly]

Wooly - Which version of RT3 did you get? The Atari release or the Pop Top release?
The Atari release has only one cd and comes with 1.05 pre-installed, but it doesn't come with the Coast to Coast Expansion.

Well, I ordered it off the internet (some obscure company linked from Amazon) at Christmas time this year, and it says PopTop copyright 2006, but who knows. It was a single disk, but it came with C to C and no v1.05 on it. Who knows what year my disk was really made, or what wierd sub-version it may be. I know the .exe is 6.something MB, while the v1.05 .exe I installed was 4.21? MB. Does that ring any bells?

The reason I think the incompatibility for many people on Vista is the graphics card, besides my earlier analysis, is because the game loads up and just barely shows the menu before crashing. You can see the struggle the comp has in rendering the image. I am no computer expert, but my experience tells me that involves a graphics card incompatibility. Of course that incompatibility may also fundamentally involve the OS and the drivers for the new OS, I am sure it does, but still the ATI card works in Vista. There are plenty of major games which have graphics card incompatibility issues I have heard, and I bet that is what this is. I don't know if an OS patch would actually solve that problem, in fact I don't think it will. I think the developer has to fix their end of it for the drivers to work right, and that is not going to happen. I mean, can anyone even get a hold of PopTop anymore. Are they still around? Do they refuse to put any more resources whatsoever for RRT3?

[Wooly]

Wooly, consumption, production and profit are affected by all prices in the industry chain. Industries 'buy' the cargoes that they consume and pay the price that exits on the square they occupy. Their income is equal to cargoes produced multiplied by price. If the price is close to or less than the price of the raw materials, the factory will reduce production or even drop to zero. There is also an overhead cost component. Speed of production is also affected by the state of the economy.

Rate of production is affected by economy state, the price difference of raw vs finished product, and events.

Thanks for your help Jay. What I don't understand is that I can bring a cargo to a station with an industry that is demanding it, sell it, and then I can haul off the product, which MUST be made by that industry, and sell it. The supply and demand can all be in order, I can be making money, and the industry can show zero consumption or production FOR ITS ENTIRE LIFETIME! It just shows zeros every year, and then negative profits once the overhead is figured in.

For example, I was playing the France scenario the game comes with, and there were electical plants demanding diesel in the south of England. I had trains bringing every last drop of oil from the 2 ports to the 2 electrical plants (and I even built another one just see what they did). One plant actually showed some activity (2.3 loads consumed and 2.3 loads produced that year, or something way too low) and the other zero activity. It made no sense. The demand was high for oil at the plants, I was bringing tons, and still it showed little to no production. At the very least, all the plants should have shown max production for the capacity. Overhead considerations make no sense, since the plant will run and pay the bills whether you supply it or not. Product demand makes no sense, since this industry didn't make a consumable product, it was just generating electricity.

And I have a ton of other examples. Cattle and Meat Packing plant systems with the same issue. Steel, it goes on and on. Most of the time my industries show zero or extremely low consumption and production...especially if I own them! A few run at total capacity, but I do the same things, the same systems with them. What gets me is that when I do see a little activity, it shows a capacity way too low, like 1.7 consumed and 1.7 produced. It's always equal amounts of both, but well below the yearly capacity (and this is on years that are over, not part way through). That makes no sense. If I am hauling away their product, no matter how much they make, they should be at total capacity. Hell, even if there is stack of product sitting outside their front door they still show low capacity.

Any ideas? More advise?


I am wondering if this could be a glitch or something, maybe a Vista glitch. It's easy to blame it on MS.

[Hawk]

Well, I ordered it off the internet (some obscure company linked from Amazon) at Christmas time this year, and it says PopTop copyright 2006, but who knows. It was a single disk, but it came with C to C and no v1.05 on it. Who knows what year my disk was really made, or what wierd sub-version it may be. I know the .exe is 6.something MB, while the v1.05 .exe I installed was 4.21? MB. Does that ring any bells?

That's the third version I've heard of and a new one on me.
The original Pop Top release came with 2 cd's. The Map Builder was on the second cd, along with some demo versions of a couple of other trivial games.

The reason I think the incompatibility for many people on Vista is the graphics card, besides my earlier analysis, is because the game loads up and just barely shows the menu before crashing. You can see the struggle the comp has in rendering the image. I am no computer expert, but my experience tells me that involves a graphics card incompatibility. Of course that incompatibility may also fundamentally involve the OS and the drivers for the new OS, I am sure it does, but still the ATI card works in Vista. There are plenty of major games which have graphics card incompatibility issues I have heard, and I bet that is what this is. I don't know if an OS patch would actually solve that problem, in fact I don't think it will. I think the developer has to fix their end of it for the drivers to work right, and that is not going to happen. I mean, can anyone even get a hold of PopTop anymore. Are they still around? Do they refuse to put any more resources whatsoever for RRT3?

I think Pop Top said there might be some incompatibility issues with NVidea cards, although that's all I've ever run on 98SE and XP and I've never had any problems. 'Course Vista is a whole nuther lump of clay.

Pop Top is no more. Gone! Fini! They were bought out by Firaxis, Sid Meier's company. Well, it's actually not Sid's. He just works there.
This link will give a rough run down on the Railroad Tycoon saga, although it's not exactly up to date. http://hawkdawg.com/rrt/rrt.htm
I haven't updated that page in a while, but it's close.

[Wooly]

So, what are the odds of appealing to Firaxis and Sid to make the game compatible with Vista? Yeah, it might compete a little with the railroad games they are making and have made, but the RT series is his baby, he started it. Maybe he/they would throw RT a bone?

[WPandP]

What are the odds of Microsoft making Vista compatible with [computer users]?

Probably more likely than appealing to Sid/Firaxis, honestly.

[Wooly]

So, what are the odds of finding a way to fix the game for nVidia graphics cards on Vista? I don't know anything about it. I just know that nVidia is the biggest GC maker out there, and will likely create more separation from ATI over the next few years. Is there interest in making the game compatible with the most popular graphics cards for the newest OS from Microsoft? What are the odds that a new service pack from MS would make it work? I really don't know these things, I am just wondering if I will ever get to use the hardware I have on my best computer.

[WPandP]

I suspect that rather than being a graphics card issue, as far as mod content in Vista goes, that it is probably more of a "security check" feature. See, Vista is supposed to be much more secure than XP. I don't have ANY direct experience with Vista, so take this all with a giant grain of salt. However, if Vista is examining file permissions to make sure that you can honestly view or use a certain file, then it may be failing with the mod content because these files are not somehow "blessed" or "stamped" with the right permissions structure. Maybe when RRT3 gets installed, all the files it copies are given certain ownership attributes, and since the mods don't match this, Vista prohibits them from loading.

If this is the case, then I don't know a way around it, unless there is a way to reduce the security levels in Vista (sort of like adding exceptions to a firewall, to tell it to go ahead and let iTunes, for example, connect to the internet). If there is a way to tell Vista to "ignore file and folder permissions" for a given application (in this case RRT3), then maybe you can get the mods to work. If such a method does exist, no doubt Vista will pop up with a message warning you how precariously vulnerable you will be by allowing such a security breach... after all, the community of RRT3 modders might be hiding viruses inside their mods!

I hope that's good food for thought. As I said, I really have no experience with Vista. Just a big theory at the moment.

[Hawk]

When Sid released Railroads he made it quite clear that he intended on getting away from the Railroad Tycoon name, which he was rather successful at - as well as getting away from the playability.

What are the chances of anyone making an OS or GC compatible with RRT3?
Sure!

Edit 1: I've been dying for an excuse to use that pig.

[Czar Mohab]

As for the buildings, I don't know how to fix that for you or what to tell you. I do know that in areas of shared demand for a good, anything that uses that good will suffer from not getting 100% of it, but it doesn't sound like that is your issue.

As for Vista, computers, and Microshaft: Personal opinion: ATI better than NVidia. Why? Out of the box HP Pavilion (~2002) came with NVidia something or other. Wouldn't even play Star Craft (Of all games). Swapped for ATI (All-in-wonder 9600), never looked back. That ATI card died just short of summer 2007 when my cat thought that I had the compy box open for him to play in. You can guess the rest. Replaced with same. This laptop, running Vista, has a built in ATI card. I've noticed that ATI and Vista seem to get along better than Vista and "others", meaning I read a lot about how Vista doesn't work with {software name}, and is running {not ATI} card. Did Microbrains and ATI have a deal or something? Maybe. Is NVidia better? Maybe for you, or others. I'm not looking to say "it sucks" (they do look perdy), just that ATI is better for *ME*. Now then. Go to your NVidia box. Make sure that you have a short-cut icon that points to:

D:\Program Files\Railroad Tycoon 3\RT3.EXE (or whatever the drive letter)

Right click on the icon and go to "compatibility". Check "Run this program..." and select XP SP2. (first step in what could be a long process). Apply, exit, and give it a go. If you fail, go back to the same spot, but click on "run as administrator" (I am so baffled that this should be an option. On my Lappy, I have the only account, have full admin rights, yet still have to tell it to do that on some things...). Apply and exit, try again.

If that fails, try tweaking with win 2k, NT4, 98, 95... you get the idea. One of those should at least get the game up, if not running. If you get the game up, but it doesn't look right or runs funny, then I would suggest to play with the three "disable..." check boxes until you get it working.

If *THAT* fails, well, I don't know what more to tell you. My last Vista "kind of compatible" game is Klingon Academy. I've run it in every possible compatibility and check box and the like, and... same results, game gets up, doesn't run happy. This is the one and only time I think ATI is the culprit; but I'm waiting on Vista SP1 before I do anything else.

Czar "Hope that helped some" Mohab

[JayEff]

Wooly, another check you can do is while playing, click on Overview Mode, then click on Profitability. Profitable buildings will show up green, marginal buildings will be yellow, and losers will be red. You can compare this display to the data that the buildings show. If they contradict you may have a bug of some sort.

Electrical plants seldom make money. I have had some profitable ones when I placed them on cargo streams of very cheap coal. The coal in the cargo display has to show up dark orange or red, or forget it. I have never seen profitable plants that use oil. Remember, from the point of view of an industry, low price is good.