New Cargo info, and a request!

[pure al]

The icons so far:



I’ve shown 3 medicine icons, so don’t know which people prefer. What’s left on my list: Fish, Deuterium, Wire, Valuables, Peanuts, Syrup, and detergents. So yeh, please take a look at the icons above and let me know if anything doesn’t work.

[bombardiere]

Really Marvellous !!!!!! ( I am running out superlatives..)

I would vote for Sand 2 and Medicine 3 (if that can be used).

Tea perhaps resembles too much Coffee. (even if used as a skin over the Coffee) But still what a great job. And in very much to existing style.

[milo]

Wow... I second Bombardiere; you're doing great work, pure al! Think I vote for Sand 2 and Medicine 2, which as you point out is less likely to get us in trouble with the authorities.

(Oh, crikey, that points out that Medicine should be a wartime cargo...)

Here's stuff everyone can help with:

• Choose base prices for each of the ten 'full' cargos.
• Decide which of the ten 'full' cargos each existing building should accept as demand-only inputs. Unfortunately I don't think it's possible either to add supply-only outputs or to add new inputs to existing production chains without disrupting existing scenario behavior, though it's open for experimentation. In other words, Tool&Dies cannot produce Machinery, and Plastics Factories cannot convert 2 Oil + 1 Dye -> 3 Plastic. :( Furthermore, try not to add more than three new inputs to Houses, because their cargo display is pretty full.

Here's the plan for the developers:

• Create named .TGA or .DDS files for all of the icons. pure al
• Create .CTY files for the ten 'full' cargo categories only. For now, use existing railcars to carry them. Do not declare any of them express; it'd take too much work to add those. pure al, bombardiere, or milo
• Figure out what the heck to do about the translation table. Worst case, ship extra copies of each cargo using translated names... but that will cause a headache later when we start creating custom buildings. milo
• If possible, modify building code to display names/icons from cargo records rather than from building records. milo
• Add internal or external code to change cargo names (= skinning cargos). milo

I think everyone has about two weeks for their parts, though it'd be useful if I could get some of the icons in by Sunday 4/22. I'll be gone for the next week.

[pure al]

Thanks guys. I think you both deserve one of these for all the great work you've both done!

Milo I emailed Hawk a zip with 18 cargo icons in tga format to put onto the ftp. I didn't include either the sand or the medicine as I'm still not happy with them. Oh and should I do some kind of atom/molecule thing for the Deuterium, or were you thinking of something else?

p.s. I currently don't have RT3 installed, so if bombardiere you could do the cty files for the cargo, as I have no way of testing them out?

[milo]

I think all we need is something futuristic for the Deuterium - we don't really have any cargos to cover scenarios in the 21st century and later. "Greening the Red Planet" and "Atlantis" are two prime examples where something like this would be useful. A simple atom would do fine (deuterium literally is a neutron-proton-electron set), or a pool of water ("heavy water").

Thanks for the upload!

[Hawk]

milo-You've got mail. :)

[bombardiere]

I can do the CTYs. I am busy with my new job, but I guess I have time for quick conversion. Just please be very precise what you want, I have never before successfully messed with CTYs.

What is needed for CTYs is empty cargo ID, base price, decay rate (Pjay has the list, but wasn’t there someone else too who has look into these?), start year and cargo car type.

For demand sinks, can I suggest we use Department stores and Retail shops more efficiently? Especially now functioning Department store almost cry for additional cargoes. (even current ones. But I realise it could have effect on game balance)

Just ideas. For example Tools could go to Retail and Perfume to Department and Pottery for both.

And yes to produce these we most likely need new industries, And another yes, Houses are pretty much full, so adding new demands can be hard.

[milo]

When looking at new production chains, focus on the ten 'actual' cargos for now. We'll worry about skins later if I can get them working. I'm also not planning on including new buildings in 1.06; we'll go the Pack strategy for those. The new cargos will be accessible through Ports/Warehouses until then.

You can probably do anything you want to Department Stores, because they weren't in older scenarios unless the scenario-maker explicitly placed them.

The decay field ranges from .1 for cargos that don't decay to .55 for Milk. Few of the cargos have a decay value greater than .15. Livestock and Produce are .45; Waste is .35, Meat and Cheese are .3; Automobiles, Corn, Clothing, Grain, Toys, and Uranium are .2.

The mystery byte at offset 20h is a 'visual appearance' modifier to the car. 1-8 apply to Flatbed cars, while 9-11 are Open_Hopper cars. This is how the Weapons flatbed shows up, for example. The default for cargos without a 'visual appearance' modifier is just to paint the resource icon on the outside of the railcar.

Current car types:
Box
Flatbed
Auto_Carrier
Covered_Hopper
Open_Hopper
Reefer
Tanker
Stock_Car
Mail
Passenger

Don't worry if you don't have time; I can put them together when I get back. Mostly we need to sort out what should be in 'em over the next week or so, and what modifications we want to make to existing buildings.

[pure al]

These are the ten new main cargos we need to think about for now:

Rock
Ore
Dye
Ingots
Machinery
Money
Ceramics
Concrete
Electronics
Medicine

As Milo says Department stores are the building we can play with the most. Should they demand electronics and money? Could we make them produce cargos? Like medicine for example?

Houses should probably demand medicine and electronics.

We need some more feedback about cargo demand-only inputs and prices from everybody (read milos ‘everybody’ post above). Including the following:

Wolverine@MSU
Gwizz
AZ Rail Rat
Orange46
EPH
Canis
Hawk
etc

Let us know what you think :D [/b]

[Wolverine@MSU]

Will it be possible to specify when these cargos become available? I doubt that houses in 1860 had much of a demand for electronics.

[wsherrick]

Wolverine has brought up an important point. What time period are we discussing? Most of these new ideas seem to be aimed at post WWII. That is fine, but a balance of new products over time is best. For example, glass making made great progress during the steam age. Sand for glass, glass for bottles, bottles to the brewery. Glass to houses for windows. Sand for concrete of course after 1890. Try to think of how the uses for an existing material or product can expand as time rolls along or how to combine these existing products into new ones. Aluminium currently is demanded only by tool and die companies. That is one existing product that could be expanded a lot. Aluminum could be used in any industry that requires steel or we could bring back the old cannery from RRT2.

[Gwizz]

In looking at the new cargo list, I got to thinking about how the cargo items are hauled through-out history.
(Food for thought)

1. Mixed cargos, (general merchandise)
2. One cargo car loads or
3. Unit trains

1. Generally: Dye, Ceramices, Elrctronics and medicine are mixed cargos. Money as cargo in early days were often moved in mail cars. I'm sure there would be exceptions for all cargos, both way.

My not sure how to paint the box cars for general cargos with a broad brush to be both supply and demand cargo.
Generally these cars could have about the same cargo rot time.


2. Concrete and Machinery were most often One cargo loads.

3. Ore and Rock most often are unit train loads over a distance.

Rot time for 2. & 3. could be 5.5


Possibly reskinning the food box car as a general cargo car would be most realistic.

I question money as a cargo. In the early days money was a regional supply. Later railroads did help move money but the use of a special car was limited. This is not to say that money could not be used as a cargo on a map.

Other Questions:

Which of these cargos might need their own buildings?
Could a new building simplify a cargo chain?
How much room in the game engine do we have for new buildings?

[Wolverine@MSU]

I assume that you can ADD a demand to an existing building. If so here are my thoughts on where cargoes could go:

Rock/Sand - Warehouse for now, if buildings become available then Cement Factory, Asphalt Plant, contruction/Building Companies.

Ore - Warehouse for now. Later - Smelter

Dye - Textile Mill, Warehouse. Later - Newspaper/Printing Plant, Paint Factory

Ingots - Warehouse, Tool & Die. Later - Banks, Electronics Factory

Machinery - All factories (Auto, T&D, Lumber Mill, Refinery, Meat Processor, Aluminum Mill, Power Plants etc.) and Warehouse. Demand should be relatively low compared to main inputs for the factories.

Money - Houses, all Factories/Plants (payroll), Dept. Store/Retail, Ports, (in theory, all buildings should demand money, although to different degrees). Later. - Banks and any other new buildings.

Ceramics - Warehouse, Dept. Store/Retail, Oil Refineries (refractory catalysts), Bakeries. Later - Aerospace Manufacturers.

Concrete - Warehouses, Houses (general city demand). Later - Construction/Building Companies, Airports?

Electroncs - All buildings (after 1950s) with demand adjusted to suit needs.

Medicine - Warehouses, Houses (gen'l city demand), Dept/Retail. Later - Hospital, Nursing Home.

I don't know much about how demands are specified in the game or what might be reasonable base prices. If possible could someone post a list of cargo base prices as currently used in the game. It would be easier to come up with a price if we knew what other cargoes fetched. These are just my quick thoughts. Please feel free to add to/subtract from the suggestions.

[Hawk]

As for machinery, I agree-demand should be low but the price should be high, if it's controllable.

[pure al]

Excellent guys, all very valid and helpful points. Hopefully Milo will pop round and answer a few of the more technical questions, but what I can say is that the cargo’s date is set in the cty files, so yes we can make them appear at appropriate times. At the moment there aren’t going to be new buildings, these may come later with an expansion pack of some sorts. As is my understanding, these cargos (the main 10) can only be produced at ports/warehouses and Department stores, while demand can probably be added to any building.

Here’s what the icons look like currently:


Notice the newest icons at the end. (I spelt Deuterium wrong above)

And many thanks go to Hawk for letting us use his cleaner for the detergent icon:
[Image removed]

[Hawk]

Wrinkle reducer? I think you better scratch that. It's not working to well on me.

[milo]

Current cargo base prices:

Code: Select all

Alcohol         100
Aluminum         85
Ammunition      160
Automobiles     200
Bauxite          30
Cheese          235
Chemicals        30
Clothing         95
Coal             30
Coffee           45
Corn             25
Cotton           30
Diesel          100
Fertilizer       80
Furniture       220
Goods           170
Grain            30
Iron             30
Livestock        90
Logs             30
Lumber           85
Mail             80
Meat            195
Milk            110
Oil              40
Paper            85
Passengers       85
Plastic          85
Produce          45
Pulpwood         30
Rice             30
Rubber           30
Steel            85
Sugar            35
Tires            85
Toys            175
Troops           50
Uranium         200
Waste            40
Weapons         235
Wool             30

[Wolverine@MSU]

Thanks milo. I'll have a list of my prices soon.

What are the cargoes to be added? Do you have a final list?

[pure al]

Hey guys, thought you'd like to know that the cargo icons are on the ftp in Cargo_Icons.zip.

Milo there are a few in there that you haven't received yet. I take it all the tga files were working and you didn't have any problems?

[milo]

To be honest, I've been fighting the code side and haven't had time to build the cargo files yet. Also trying to figure out if it's possible to change building behavior based on the map file version, but that seems like too complex a change.

Any thoughts on playtesting the new cargos? Should we just throw them out there, or should we do a Beta 5?