New Cargo info, and a request!

[milo]

SPACESHIPS!? Y'know, that gives me an idea...

Glad you put your Ore in. Much better than my placeholder.

[EPH]

'SPACESHIPS?'

:D Looks like it's time to re-do Getaway Special!

[bombardiere]

Cool. Gwizz I still can't find the code, if you could point me in the right direction that would be great. Unless Bombar you're saying Gwizz port skips the un-upgraded 3dp and uses two upgraded 3d models, that must be it! Thanks.

Well I am only guessing, but I think it is possible to rename Upgrade files as originals and thus get the upgraded port at the beginning. (cross out upgradeable in the building file)

BTW my suggestion would be that we include cargo files in the 1.06 Patch, wrap it over and then worry about the building 3D and etc.

[pure al]

Good to see people like spaceships. There's also a futuristic 'Energy' cargo, but you can call it whatever you want as with all our new cargos. Milo it's not that I didn't like your ore icon, I just had a few minutes spare at work so thought I might as well make a brand new one :D

Bombar I agree Milo shouldn't be worrying about 3D models now, but if we can make a few temporary new buildings using the existing 3dps, we can have them included in 1.06. I notice nobody is commenting on the ore mine, which I guess means you're unsure whether it works or not.
Can we decide on the buildings we will have, given that it's only possible to add a few new ones.

-Cargos that do not exist yet in the current game year (or do not exist on the start date of a tutorial) are disabled.
-If the wartime special condition is enabled, then anything that isn't meat, cheese, weapons, ammo, diesel, or clothing is disabled.
-Passengers and mail are enabled.
-For each port or warehouse enabled in a region containing at least one building, all cargos it generates are enabled.
-If Barracks are enabled, then Troops are enabled.
-If Recycling Plants are enabled, then Waste is enabled.
-If a building is type-2 (farms + factories), is not a port or warehouse, is not a recycling plant, and is enabled in the Industry page, then all of the cargos it generates are available.
-All remaining cargos are disabled.

Looking at Milo's explanation of how a cargo is activated in game (above), is it me or can we make all original buildings demand our new cargos? Thinking about it we should therefore focus on buildings that only produce new cargos, and even demand-supply can be added to existing buildings. This will not effect any previous scenarios because the cargos are disabled as nothing is producing them.

Type-4 buildings (stores, windmills, school houses, stadiums, etc) won't contribute to cargo availability, though I believe they can produce cargo.

So these can all produce cargos.

Also can a few of you help Milo by posting some new cargo price lists?

[milo]

The Good: I got buildings to display skinned cargos correctly. It should take only one more short block of code to permit renaming cargos from the editor screen.

The Bad: We won't be able to skin express cargos. Passengers, mail, and troops all use custom RT3.lng messages and custom cargo code rather than reading most data from the cargo object. That probably kills the most obvious ways to use the Prisoners, Newspapers, Money, and Valuables skins.

The Ugly: You'll probably be stuck using the somewhat cryptic _<message id><internal name> format to rename cargos. In other words, changing Alcohol to Beer would require something like right-clicking on Alcohol and typing "_4354Beer" into the popup. I haven't found enough room to construct a nice selection dialog with translated names, unfortunately.

[Hawk]

Just a thought;
Because of The Bad and The Ugly, is this something that really needs to be pursued?
Is it worth the effort.
Should a poll be started?
Is the moon made of green cheese?

[milo]

The entire patch is stuff that didn't really need to be pursued - why stop now? :D

I know people are getting impatient for the 'production' release. Most of this particular subproject can be thought of as groundwork for the next few packs, rather than new features in 1.06 itself. We're going to want to put out new locomotives, new railcars, new cargo skins, and new buildings, and half our community is going to want them to work in a language other than English. Without the extension, we'll have increasing trouble with all of these.

I may drop the in-editor skinning if it's too cumbersome. It's still possible to build an external skinning utility that doesn't suffer from the Ugly problem.

[pure al]

I think that's great Milo, I'd leave it like that. If people understand how to use events I'm sure they can cope with the ugly point. And Hawk the cargos are done, Milo's got most of the code working, so no point turning back now


The last icon is this one, specially for EPH. I've called it energy but it can be anything really.

[Hawk]

OK! I know when I'm licked.
I was just thinking of all the extra work on you guys.
Just ignore me.
Keep up the good work.

[milo]

Looking at Milo's explanation of how a cargo is activated in game (above), is it me or can we make all original buildings demand our new cargos? Thinking about it we should therefore focus on buildings that only produce new cargos, and even demand-supply can be added to existing buildings. This will not effect any previous scenarios because the cargos are disabled as nothing is producing them.

Interesting... The weapons factory confused me into thinking that a production chain would simply leave out any inputs that weren't enabled, but some testing shows you're right: if an input is missing, the entire chain gets disabled. Better yet, if steel mills and iron mines are on but coal mines are off, then steel is still disabled. I take back what I said earlier; you're right that we can add new supply/demand chains to existing buildings without breaking existing scenarios, PROVIDED that they use at least one of the 10 new cargos as an input. Woohoo, we can have Tool&Die shops make Machinery!

That suggests in turn that, if people think they can get buildings done before we get run out on a rail for delaying 1.06 again, the top priorities should be supply-only chains that we can't add to existing buildings. The Ore Mine by pure al is a great start. Quarry for rock and crystal, Dye Plantation for dye? Everything else can be filled in with a warehouse for now.

We should also sort out exactly the additions we want to make to existing buildings. Stuff off the top of my head:

• Radio Stations demand 2 Electronics
• Cinema demands 1 Electronics
• Electric Plant demands 1 Electronics and 0.1 Machinery
• Nuclear Power Plant demands 2 Electronics and 0.1 Machinery
• Furniture Factories convert 2 Lumber + 1 Dye -> 3 Furniture
• Textile Plants convert 2 Cotton + 1 Dye -> 3 Textile
• Plastics Factories convert 2 Oil + 1 Dye -> 3 Plastic
• Toy Factories convert 1 Lumber + 2 Dye -> 2 Toy
• Tool&Dies convert 1 Steel + 1 Ingot -> 1 Machinery until 1880; then they convert 1 Steel + 1 Ingot + 1 Oil -> 2 Machinery
• All factories demand 0.1 Machinery
• Windmill demands 0.1 Machinery
• Houses demand 0.03 Medicine, 0.02 Electronics, and 0.03 Concrete
• Military Depot demands 2 Concrete and 1 Electronics
• Department Stores demand 2-3 Ceramics and 1-2 Electronics
• Retail demands 1-2 Ceramics and 1 Electronics
• Bakery demands 1 Ceramics
• Distillery demands 2 Ceramics
• Dairy Farm demands 1 Ceramics
• Stadiums demand 1 Medicine

Tricky part is balancing things so that there's about the same demand for any new cargo as there is for any existing cargo.

I'd love to have a way to increase city growth if the city is supplied with ceramics and concrete, or increase chance of a factory upgrade if the factory is supplied with machinery, but those probably require too much magic.

[BTW, why do Taverns not demand Alcohol or Restaurants not demand Meat?]

[wsherrick]

Oh well, I have to throw in something else in question form. Why don't barracks demand clothing-i.e. uniforms?

[pure al]

What did I tell you sceptical lot! I can't go into detail now but those look good to me. I think we've got some thinking to do, and some input from the community would be helpful. Tell us your thoughts!

[Wolverine@MSU]

Since most dyes are synthetic nowadays, can the Chemical Plant be set to produce Dye after say 1930 or so?

[bombardiere]

That suggests in turn that, if people think they can get buildings done before we get run out on a rail for delaying 1.06 again, the top priorities should be supply-only chains that we can't add to existing buildings.

Can't help much there. Bit busy. However, for those who need help, I can offer my assistance for building cargo etc. files. I mena I can write the changes to building files, but I have no time to create new buildings :(

Textile Plants convert 2 Cotton + 1 Dye -> 3 Textile
Plastics Factories convert 2 Oil + 1 Dye -> 3 Plastic
Toy Factories convert 1 Lumber + 2 Dye -> 2 Toy

Don't these break the old scenarios? I know that it is possible to make factories produce cargoes independently, but as far as I know, the raw material has always been different. I am mean old 1 Cotton > Clothing may conflict with 2 Cotton + 1 Dye > Clothing.

Houses demand 0.03 Medicine, 0.02 Electronics, and 0.03 Concrete

I guess these are ok, but adding anything to houses may be difficult. (house file is complex)

Department Stores demand 2-3 Ceramics and 1-2 Electronics
Retail demands 1-2 Ceramics and 1 Electronic

What if make these demand other cargoes too. Old ones especially.

Radio Stations demand 2 Electronics
Cinema demands 1 Electronics

I like these

Stadiums demand 1 Medicine

For football fanatics (i.g. Hooligans) eh?

And Brewery could demand 1-2 ceramics

BTW if the Ceramics is going to be a major cargo, I'll make Ceramic factory instead of pottery. It is just in my language ceramics has slightly different meaning. (oh no, nothing rude, ceramics usually means industrial type of porcelain)

Tricky part is balancing things so that there's about the same demand for any new cargo as there is for any existing cargo.

Yes I agree. And it requires lenghtly testing. What if these are reliased outside of 1.06?

[milo]

Since most dyes are synthetic nowadays, can the Chemical Plant be set to produce Dye after say 1930 or so?

Unfortunately, not without affecting existing scenarios. We can add cargo chains involving new cargos as inputs with impunity because none of them will show up in legacy scenarios. If we add dye as an output, it will then appear in legacy scenarios after 1930, and could alter the financial characteristics of any buildings using it as an input or an output within that scenario.

Don't these break the old scenarios?

Nope. I thought they did as well, but as long as Dye is not enabled in the scenario, none of these chains show up. Keep in mind that these conversions are in addition to the existing chains - so a textile plant would support both 1 Cotton -> 1 Textile and 2 Cotton + 1 Dye -> 3 Textile. As long as dye is cheap relative to cotton, oil, or especially lumber, I think the buildings will accept them.

I guess these are ok, but adding anything to houses may be difficult. (house file is complex)

The house file is big, but mostly because it has nineteen demand-only cargos and a supply cargo. As long as we keep the simultaneous cargos in the industry display window below 22, I think we're OK.

What if make these demand other cargoes too. Old ones especially.

Sorry, it will affect building economics in existing scenarios again. Probably too risky for any building except the Department Store.

[pure al]

Main cargos:
Rock
Ore
Dye
Ingots
Machinery
Crystals
Ceramics
Concrete
Electronics
Medicine

if people think they can get buildings done before we get run out on a rail for delaying 1.06 again

If you can program the cargos to be produced at the relevant times and people give me enough info to stick into the buildings I can have them all done (textured and independant) by monday.

• Ceramic factory- Bombardiere I was mistaken before, too many cargos on the mind, I would love it if you could make a Ceramic factory.
  
  Ore Mine - I've got the Ore Mine done. What date should it start producing ore?
  
  Quarry- Impossible to get a quarry looking building with current 3dps. Anyone have any ideas what I should do for this?
  
  Manufacturing Plant - This is going to be our generic supply building for new cargos. Ingots and Concrete could be created here. Machinery will be demanded.

Wolverine@MSU- I would also like to see the chemical plant producing Dye, but I don't think we can. Maybe we'll make the Manufacturing plant produce Dye, which could then be demanded at the chemical plant.

Stuff for everyone to answer:
What building should I start now? Should we have a hospital that demands medicine? What produces medicine? What demands crystals?

[milo]

Quarry: Could you perhaps start with an Iron or Bauxite Mine and take half the building out of it? The slag piles look quite a bit like rock piles.

Manufacturing Plant: Don't worry about this for now. We'll use warehouses for 1.06 and construct real buildings for a later Pack:
Smelter: Ore -> Ingots
Kiln: Rock -> Ceramics
Concrete Plant: Ceramics + Steel -> Concrete
Electronics Plant: Crystals + Ingots -> Electronics
Pharmaceutical Plant: Chemicals -> Medicine
Construction Firm: Ceramics, Concrete, Lumber ->
Hospital: Medicine ->

[Wolverine@MSU]

Is there anything we can do yet as far as beta-testing the new cargoes, or do we need to wait for a patch to implement them? I'm just running in circles playing British Miracle (a very nice scenario by the way) and trying to outdo myself with each play. The semester is coming to an end, I'm done reading lab reports (what a relief) and will have some extra time on hand (unless "she who must be obeyed" finds stuff for me to do).

Let us know if there's anything we mere mortals can do to help out.

[pure al]

Where's that cargo price list you promised?

[Wolverine@MSU]

Haven't had a chance to get to it yet. We sent the kiddies out the door today with a graduation brunch for them and their families. Final grades are due Tuesday afternoon, and after that I'll have a go at it. It looks like you guys are doing OK without my 2-cents worth, so don't hold up the train just for me.