The Great Experiment

Discussion of Pop Top's last release of RRT.
Czar Mohab
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The Great Experiment Unread post

I have created (well, modified to an extent) a map for the sole purpose of testing the efficiency of train routing in RT3.

I have been playing for a long time, and I still haven't been able to find the "perfect" route setup. I've tried almost everything, and I am looking into finding the "most efficient" scheduling.

There are several factors that contribute to how efficient scheduling is, most notably availability of stuff to send from one city to the next, the next being the ability to move said stuff.

The test map is in the rework phase, since I screwed up some major things that I didn't take into account on the first trial runs; however, the data collected so far presents a promising baseline, and a wealth of information. The map is currently 30 cities, arranged in 3 groups of 10, each group subdivided into two parallel strips of 5 cities each. No starting city has more than 3 stars for size, and each strip is arranged as 1-2-3-2-1 and 3-2-1-2-3 (star size) respectively. Each grouping of 10 cities is equidistant from the next and are arranged in short, medium, and long distance ranges, to determine if distance from each city is a factor. In the next phase, I intend to add 10 more cities, at "extra long" distances from each other; however, this may skew the results for "overall" performance. Additionally, I intend to add 10 cities that will not be connected to rails at all, as a baseline set to determine how effective city growth is with the railroad vice without.

Currently, the tests are to be run in 8 categories, trains that run 2 stations (1-2), three stations (1-2-3-2), four stations (1-2-3-4-3-2) and five stations (do you really need to see this one? :lol: ), with first batch runs as (min/max) 1/8 any cargo, followed by second runs as 1 train freight 1/8, 1 train express 1/7+DC for each route, for a total of 8 run-throughs. Each run will last 60 years, with data observation every ten years, data collection at 30 and 60 years.

Making this scarier, all 8 runs should be repeated in 30 year intervals to determine if locomotive speed is a major determining factor into a railroad's efficiency (I know it is, but I want to be thorough), starting in 1840 and ending in 1960 (for 32 !*00*! runs, at about 2-2 1/2 hours each (which, in turn, makes me wish that I was getting paid to run this...)). However, this may be mitigated once the "best" schedule is determined, and just running that set up for each time period.

There is no mountains, rivers, or other hindrances to railroad development, however rivers/streams/hills may be added later to better divide the groups of 10 if cross-map-non-railroad moving of cargo is compromising data results.

So what does this mean to you? Probably not much. It is a "best case" style test map, goods can flow (as seen in already completed runs) freely without assistance of the rails. This is to test how efficient each style of scheduling is at taking care of the customers. Data may be used on other maps to a degree, however, environments native to other maps (such as hills, valleys, rivers, etc.) may make other options more viable. At the very least, there would be a starting point.

So far, using Test Map v 0.01, I've run both runs of the "two stations" trains. So far, based on data after 30/60 years, city development is faster using trains that are set to "Any Cargo" but overall profit is better using 1 freight/1 express on the same routes. Company cash was a little shorter on this setup due to having twice the number of trains. Stock value and stock book value were less using the 1f/1e schedules, however, player's stock was double that of the any schedule.

Of note, the scenario is set up with a ridiculous amount of company and player cash, no need to issue stock or bonds. No industries were purchased (didn't want to have them be a factor, it is the RR's efficiency I am testing, after all). No crashes/breakdowns allowed (again, this would be a factor in the final results). Medal win conditions not altered from the original map, but the win text was changed, as was the lose text. With the exception of the size and win conditions, no elements from the original map exist as original, but I'll still give credit to the original "writer" once I can recall who it was.

Changes for Test Map v 0.10:
-Cargo counter
-add ten cities at longer distances than cities 21-30
-add ten cities mirroring cities 11-20, but not placing rail.
-move edge of map cities away from the edge of the map, they were unable to grow (one shrank).
-remove (if able) economic conditions. Map should be forever in "normal" economy.
-rezone cities to place high demanding products further away from their demanding cities.

The following are criteria for observation, all are recorded at 30 and then 60 years:
-# of 1 Star Cities
-# of 2 Star Cities
-# of 3 Star cities
-# of 4 Star Cities
-# of 5 Star Cities
-CBV
-PNW
-Personal Cash
-Company Cash
-Player Stocks
-$/share
-Book value
-Company Profit
-Loads of Freight Hauled (currently recorded as a cash value, v. 0.10 will have it as # of loads)
-Loads of Express Hauled (same as above)
-Year of Gold (With only 30 years to get there, the test map has cut it very close so far on each run)
-# of trains
-Salary (I feel that this one is a good judge of how well the game thinks you're doing, so it is a factor)

I will continue to observe my trains and report my findings, however, due to the time to run, record, rerun, etc., I will probably report every two runs. Any input/help/comments/suggestions/questions are greatly welcomed.

Czar "Map will be available, too, when I'm done tweaking it" Mohab.

P.S. Yes, Hawk, et al, it is Barney with Captain Kirk.
Zathras is used to being beast of burden to other people's needs. Very sad life... probably have very sad death, but at least there is symmetry.
Czar Mohab
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Re: The Great Experiment Unread post

Loss of HDD led to loss of data. Recovery efforts have been in place for ~6 months, funding being the limiting factor. Will resume testing once data has been recovered.

I had a nice spreadsheet, too.

Czar "don't drop your laptop... onto sharp objects... from >4 feet... definitely do not let your cat do it for you" Mohab
Zathras is used to being beast of burden to other people's needs. Very sad life... probably have very sad death, but at least there is symmetry.
ishaybas
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Re: The Great Experiment Unread post

Sounds like a lost treasure!!
Always back up.. its so easy these days. Especially spreadsheets - just use google docs to begin with.

As far as train routing I found it the most efficient (no formal experiments, just lots of game hours) to always configure most trains to do a route like:
1-2-3-1-3-2, 0/8 any cargo.
this way you're covering all links between the three cities, sometimes even profiting twice and three times over the same cargo till it reaches the 'right' city.

When your world grows, add specific trains from specific cities for specific tasks.
And of course you can copy trains and have 2,3,4,5,n trains running the same 1-2-3-1-3-2, or sharing different cities.
This setup makes sure 99% of your trains are profitable at every era.
Monitor once a year to see if you have a non profitable train and solve it.
This also keeps you from micro managing your trains too much.

If I have lots of express traffic between specific towns, I'd start express trains with high priority.
If you don't have enough express they will be non profitable after a while since they will be stopping
all trains along the way, even if profit wise their load doesn't bring in much.
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OilCan
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ishaybas wrote: As far as train routing I found it the most efficient (no formal experiments, just lots of game hours) to always configure most trains to do a route like:
1-2-3-1-3-2, 0/8 any cargo.
this way you're covering all links between the three cities....
Ahhh...ishaybas is promoting the 'daisy chain' railroad network. I have found this to be an effective network as well, especially when the cities are strung along in line on the map. Although I always use a 1/8 consist limits unless it is a 'resource supply' train which is feeding a basic resource or product to my industry, then I use a zero minimum car limit from the industry back to the resource. There are two other railroad network designs: the hub & spoke and; the dive flag. Both of these work well too, depending on the map layout of cities. Of these three general railway network designs, I guess I use the hub & spoke railway network more often than not.
Jeremy Mac Donald
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OilCan wrote: Ahhh...ishaybas is promoting the 'daisy chain' railroad network. I have found this to be an effective network as well, especially when the cities are strung along in line on the map. Although I always use a 1/8 consist limits unless it is a 'resource supply' train which is feeding a basic resource or product to my industry, then I use a zero minimum car limit from the industry back to the resource. There are two other railroad network designs: the hub & spoke and; the dive flag. Both of these work well too, depending on the map layout of cities. Of these three general railway network designs, I guess I use the hub & spoke railway network more often than not.
Could you go into more detail by what you mean by the 'dive flag' style set up?

Also by 'hub & spoke' do you mean a design where specific cities spaced two, three or four cities apart connect to all surrounding cities while trains are run between these hub cities. I think I've seen this layout reffed to as 'spider web' but I may be thinking of a slightly different layout.

Finally, personally I usually just run a train back and forth between each connected city. Later I'll make specific 'feeder' trains that carry resources from high areas of concentration to areas of high demand (carrying oil from oil fields to a Refinery for example). Not sure if simply having a train run between each city has a name associated with it though if it does I'm curious as to the lingo.
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OilCan
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Jeremy Mac Donald wrote: Could you go into more detail by what you mean by the 'dive flag' style set up?

Also by 'hub & spoke' do you mean a design where specific cities spaced two, three or four cities apart connect to all surrounding cities while trains are run between these hub cities.
Let me first describe the hub and spoke network system because the dive flag is a variation of the hub and spoke. (After re-reading what I wrote below, I realized that this might be more than you really wanted to know....)

The idea of the hub and spokes system follows the pattern of a wagon wheel (minus the rim). Essentially, you run cargo back and forth between “spoke cities” and a central "hub" city. This is usually a very profitable and efficient way to set up a rail network.

The main difference between this and the Daisy Chain system is the hub city. Cargo gets piled up at the hub city which drives down prices compared to the spoke cities. The spoke cities, themselves, should have most of the industries and when their individual industries stockpile enough cargo, the prices drop below the hub prices and are eventually picked up and delivered to the hub. By this method all the cargo will eventually be delivered to the desired destinations (*). The spoke stations are usually not connected to each other, but this is not a hard and fast rule.

(*) Or you can reverse this by having several industries in the hub city and none on the spoke cities, which keeps prices high on the spoke cities.

Early in the game, only one train is needed to run between a spoke station and the hub. As cities get larger extra trains can be added in. Eventually, a hub will become too congested with spoke trains. Then it is time to start a new hub and spoke system.

As a new hub and spoke networks develop, trains can run between the hubs.
Often one hub will pile up a certain cargo (steel) while another is piling up something else (clothes). The cross hub trains can carry these cargo back and forth.

As in the Daisy Chain, the exceptions would be for special passenger trains between large cities and special supply trains which would require track to be laid apart from the wagon wheel design to reach the raw resources.

The big advantages of the hub and spoke system are two fold: 1) you are controlling, to a degree, the price gradients on the map. You are assuming that you can keep prices in the hub high. When you can, the money comes rolling in. 2) you have a very efficient and well controlled use of trains. You are not prone to lapse into a haphazard assortment of routes.

The big disadvantages are also two fold: 1) city patterns on a map may not lend themselves to a wagon wheel design, or anything close, without building long stretches of track between the hub and the spokes (expensive at the start of a game). 2) If the prices in the hub collapse the whole system stalls.

The Dive Flag network system is a sort of a combination of the Daisy Chain and Hub and Spokes. As you probably know, the dive flag design is a rectangle with a diagonal line between two corners. In this system, you select four cities, which are the four corners of the flag and run trains along the edges of the flag and the diagonal line (5 routes in total) between the cities. Thus, two cities will be connected with three other cities (at least one of these two cities should be a two star or large city), and two cities are connected with only two other cities. This system builds on the three-city startup requirement for a successful game (need 3 cities connected when first rail is laid in game).

As more cities are added, the dive flag pattern is replicated. A very large city (i.e. Moscow) could anchor the corners of two or more flags. In this respect, it mimics the hub and spoke, except that several of the spokes are connected to each other. Later added trains do not have to remain in their own flag network but could carry cargo between any cities (be careful not to lapse into a disorganized network).

And, as in the hub and spoke system, the exceptions would be for special passenger trains between large cities and special supply trains which would require track to be laid where needed to reach the raw resources.

The big advantage of this system is that you are not dependant upon a central hub to carry the economy of all the spoke cities, nor are you just making a chain of cities. There is less of an emphasis on the map’s price gradient. You assume that the multiple connections of the cities sustains a multiple assortment of needs and thus multiple price gradients to keep your trains running with cargo.

The big disadvantage is that you can soon have a number of haphazard routes as you add trains and try to capitalize on price gradients between far distant cities.

The pattern and density of the cities on a map really decides whether to use a daisy chain, hub and spoke or dive flag network system. It is not uncommon to use all three on the same map. Bottomline, you are trying to reduce the number of trains needed and avoid a haphazard routing scheme.
Jeremy Mac Donald
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OK thanks for the explanation. Daisy chain must be the lingo for the rather simple method of running trains back and forth between adjacent cities.

I've certianly found that I usually use daisy chain having had some trouble with Hub and Spoke in the one recent case where I used it.

I tried Hub and Spoke in Texas II, at first glance, it appeared to be almost the ideal scenario for it. The scenario goes for sixty years and yet you'll have finished connecting every city in roughly 30 years of the game. Its a mostly flat map with larger cities often located near a large number of smaller cities. However, what I found, was that Hub and Spoke was actually too effective. I made buckets of money in the middle point of the scenario when I had finally set up the entire network. However I eventually reached a point (5 or 6 years later) where my train network had so efficiently transported cargo's of all types all over the map that a general price collapse occurred. Using this map and Hub and Spoke it was possible to move cargo gathered at one hub city to any other hub cities with only a few trips and, by the later part of the game all cities had a fairly good stockpile of all desired cargo's. This resulted in the price gradient between cargo's demanded at one part of the map and another part of the map being so slim that it was barely profitable to run the trains - certianly not profitable enough to gain gold.
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WPandP
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My own preference for daisy chaining is not a simple A to B routing, as I found that the price gradients can cause individual links in the chain to stall. Instead, I do A-B-C, as often there is cargo that wants to continue moving from A towards C and you can make money on both hauls, and the return trip C to A is remote enough that the gradients hold up over time. The next train, though, reverses direction; instead of running B-C-D, it runs D-C-B. Then it's C-D-E, followed by F-E-D, and so on.

Ultimately this creates trains that run from any one city directly to each of the next two cities on either side, and when left to auto-manage consists it will hardly ever leave a train idle. Moreover, between any two cities there are only two trains sharing the line, so I can save on track costs and use only single track. I use priority flags to set a preferred direction "eastbound" or "westbound"; just say A-B-C is eastbound and is the priority direction, while D-C-B is westbound and must defer. Stations still serve 3 trains each, so you might want some double track right at the station.

Obviously, top priority passenger only trains or custom consist freight hauls run as "extras" to this system, as in the other schemes.
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OilCan
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I like it! Thanks for sharing your scheme WPandP. I did some thinking and diagramming about the 1-2-3-1-3-2 scheme of 'ishaybas' and your A-B-C D-C-B scheme, and your scheme comes out more efficient and less congested. Learning these little tidbits really helps out.
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OilCan
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Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:This resulted in the price gradient between cargo's demanded at one part of the map and another part of the map being so slim that it was barely profitable to run the trains - certianly not profitable enough to gain gold.
I'm not the best at manipulating the map's price gradients, but there are some techniques for restoring a collapsed (or flat) price gradient. You probably know most of these, but they are worth repeating.
  • Stop hauling products or goods to an area of cities for a while. Stop your trains from supplying an area for 3 months. Restart with a custom consist trains to ration out products to keep the demand up.

    Keep the cities growing by delivering an assortment of goods. Make sure cities are receiving a mixture of coal, wood, food, paper, etc on other trains. A growing city is a growing demand. Use ‘Freight Only’ consist on the third train between two cities. This keeps passengers and mail from taking up train cars.

    If you own an almost monopoly of an industry (i.e. textile mills) on a map (or an area of a map), ration your product out. Set custom consist trains to carry off only one or two cars of your industry good and to only a few cities. This will cause demand to soar in other areas.

    Build several identical industries in one city creating a hub of high demand for a resource(s). Ration out the industry product with custom consist trains.
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I tend towards using single track and the daisy chain system combined with small hubs that have
3 or 4 cities connected I will then put hotels and taverns in the hubs and if it gets busy double track between the hubs.
Now this has got me thinking, I seem to remember a scenario where the goal was to haul above a certain percentage of cargo that was available on the map, can anyone remember which one it was ?
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Jeremy Mac Donald
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WPandP wrote:My own preference for daisy chaining is not a simple A to B routing, as I found that the price gradients can cause individual links in the chain to stall. Instead, I do A-B-C, as often there is cargo that wants to continue moving from A towards C and you can make money on both hauls, and the return trip C to A is remote enough that the gradients hold up over time. The next train, though, reverses direction; instead of running B-C-D, it runs D-C-B. Then it's C-D-E, followed by F-E-D, and so on.

Ultimately this creates trains that run from any one city directly to each of the next two cities on either side, and when left to auto-manage consists it will hardly ever leave a train idle. Moreover, between any two cities there are only two trains sharing the line, so I can save on track costs and use only single track. I use priority flags to set a preferred direction "eastbound" or "westbound"; just say A-B-C is eastbound and is the priority direction, while D-C-B is westbound and must defer. Stations still serve 3 trains each, so you might want some double track right at the station.

Obviously, top priority passenger only trains or custom consist freight hauls run as "extras" to this system, as in the other schemes.
This is a really interesting method. Though I'm unclear why a priority eastbound or westbound is even needed. Would this not work if we just left it so that the more valuable haul always had priority?
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WPandP
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Actually, the priority east versus west isn't really necessary in order to turn a buck. Occasionally, there might be a particular pair of cities that you want to expedite flow in one direction, but that isn't the general rule. The real benefit of setting the priority flags is to serve as a reminder to me, which trains are moving which direction. You have to remember which direction the last train was routed when you go to buy the next one, and the flags give you an at-a-glance way to remind yourself.

I used to use train names as a way to track this, like "CIN-TOL-DET" for a Cincinnati to Toledo to Detroit routing, but this is a lot more clerical work. Clicking flags is so much easier.
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Jeremy Mac Donald
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Ohhh....nice trick.
ishaybas
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Gandar wrote: I seem to remember a scenario where the goal was to haul above a certain percentage of cargo that was available on the map, can anyone remember which one it was ?
Is there really such a scenario?
how is that even possible when the editor does not support percentages?
Gwizz
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It could have been an RT2 map. Lots of math in RT2.
I don't remember the name. But I think there were more than one map that used Percentages.
Gandar
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It may well have been a RR2 map as I say I have only a vague memory of playing it and I was frustrated because I had trains zooming around all over the place and cargo still seemed to pile up.
It's not a big deal, if it was a RR2 map then I probably cleared it out a few weeks back when I was tidying up, I figured I didn't need it because I have the map dvd.
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