More articulated steam?

[WPandP]

Having downloaded and played with the 4-8-0 Mastodon and other "kitbashed" steam engines, I just have to wonder whether someone can do similar things with the two articulated steam engines. As a N&W fan, I'd love to see the 4-6-6-4 modded into a Class A 2-6-6-4, and the Big Boy become a Class Y6b 2-8-8-2. It seems that simple pilot and trailing truck replacement, and a tender swap (with perhaps the H10 2-8-2 or the Northern 4-8-4) could suffice, though a distinctive skin could help as well.

Trouble is, I don't know hex-editing at all, and don't intend to learn. Has anyone else contemplated this?

The A and the Y should both be available a little earlier and be less powerful than the Challenger and Big Boy, likewise cheaper. Another option would be to make a USRA 2-6-6-2 out of the Challenger, available in the 20's and much less powerful.

I will PRE-ANNOUNCE my own new scenario which is nearing completion, which places you in between giants B&O and N&W in the region near Winchester, Virginia. I'm trying to script it so that the two Class 1 railroads behave a bit like themselves, and this includes giving them a representative roster. The player will have choices as to how they wish to equip their fleet, by following either company's lead. Thus, at the moment I am using events to make the Challenger and Big Boy available, as stand-ins.

[besterik]

I can only speak for myself, but one reason is probably that the BB and Challenger have extremely high fuel costs, despite being called "Average" on the sheet, which means that it is almost always more profitable to run trains with less mountain-climbing abilities. If those engines aren't being used, then there isn't really that much incentive to make more engines with similair data.

[WPandP]

MY point, though, is that a modded mallet could be a little lighter, with lower purchase price and operating costs, and actually become something more useful (as well as more representative of my favorite road). In my scenario, I'm trying to help my AI N&W to actually prefer using big steam, so I am scripting events to that end.

[bombardiere]

Well, I have, but I really don't have time.

Chris actually suggested early N&W Class Y 2-8-8-2. (I think it is same as USRA model) I have checked and it is possible to add Big Boy wheels to Challenger. (Actually needs less work than normal wheel switch) And with Mikado's or Northern's tender it would look about right.

But I don't have time nor interest to skin it, :(

Another possibility studied is a Yellowstone. It is possible to give Big Boy Challenger's front bogie and make a 2-8-8-4

[WPandP]

I have the graphic skills necessary to do the skinning, as long as someone else can do the hex editing. I still think a 2-6-6-2 or other lighter articulated would be worthwhile, but certainly a 2-8-8-2 would fill an important niche. The exorbitant fuel cost should be toned down significantly; the main reason N&W developed such large steam was that they had access to cheap fuel - diesel fuel was more expensive at the time, so NW stuck with large steam up until 1960. It frustrates me that it seems like there's almost never a way to run profitable trains using articulated engines.

[bombardiere]

Ok. Well if you are interested in skinning it, I'll see what I can do. Give some time to check out what is doable and what is not.

2-8-8-2 might be easier but I will check 2-6-6-2 too. (probably would look wrong)

My suggestion would be N&W Class Y3. It would offer early heavy pulling powers. (still a lot less than Big Boys or Challengers) The problem is that Mallets are too powerfull for the game. The game doesn't offer loads heavy enough for these engines to be really useful.

BTW I need data for possible 2-6-6-2

[wsherrick]

I would like to see some earlier mallets as well, this has been discussed elsewhere in the forum. JUST for your general knowledge and since you like the N&W. The A and Y classes of articulateds were somewhat cheaper to operate and maintain than the diesels that replaced them, and the steam engines produced a lot more work for less money than the diesels also. I thought that might warm your heart a little bit. :D

I assume you are talking about the Z class 2-6-6-2. I will go get the specs and post them for you in a little while.

[wsherrick]

Here are the specs for a N&W class Z1and Z1b 2-6-6-2's:
Years built: 1912-1918
engine type: articulated/compound
cylinder size: 22"X 32" high pressure, 35"X 32" low pressure
boiler pressure: 200 Lbs.
Starting tractive effort: 86,250
drivers: 561/2"
Length over couplers: 100' 5"
grate area: 72.2 square feet
Tender capacity: Coal-20 tons, Water-15,000 gallons
Tonnage rating on east side of Elkhorn Grade before grade lowering was 5,000 tons.
I hope this helps with giving you an idea of what you want to accomplish.

[bombardiere]

Thanks that is useful. But do you have the engine weight and what was typical operating speed?

I have couple weeks vacation, so if I get RRT3 bug I might test which engines are feasable. Mallet around 1920 would be useful but I have introduced so many engines for this time period that I feel it is getting crowed.

[WPandP]

I wouldn't mind terribly if for gameplay purposes the lighter mallet(s) became available closer to 1930, since there does seem to be a "lull" there. I can always make them available earlier via events, as a way of favoring the N&W.

I don't know about speeds, but my feeling is that they should be slow, useful only for freight really.

What would have been cool, maybe a feature for RT4 if ever there was such an incarnation, would be to have train length be dependent on engine type, with some engines rated at 6 cars, some at 7, some 8, etc. (I would also prefer trains longer than 8 but maybe that is an interface decision). That way the articulateds could shine and the F3's seem a little less obviously the way to go.

[wsherrick]

Ok, Bomber, here is the weight and speed info on the class Z1.
total weight engine & tender: 752,700 lbs.
total weight engine: 440,000 lbs.
weight on drivers: 376,581
Top speed: 30-35 MPH.

[bombardiere]

Ok, this is what I was able to do with a Mallet. My goal was to make a N&W Class Y3. Problem is that this Challenger body is way bigger that Y3 (or Y6)

It is possible to do a 2-6-6-2 by removing last set of main wheels, but then there is a gap. (and a headache for to sort out the coupling bar) BTW I wasn't able to remove second pair of leading bogie wheels. It is hard to see those, but from certain angle it may look funny.

WPandP, as you will be making the skin, you can pick which one you want Y or Z. I'll make spec and send the engine to for skining.

[WPandP]

Awesome!

I think that looks close enough to a Y3 for me. And 2-8-8-2 seems like a really good size engine, to be useful for most gamers. I already have the tender skin started! My Class J tender just needs to have the red and yellow stripe removed, which I can do readily. The loco won't take too long, either, as it seems mainly a task of darkening the body (no big yellow body graphics to paint out like the big boy).

You can send any files to me at:
paranoid (at) wpandp . com

[bombardiere]

I propose following specs for Class Y3

Top speed 30 MPH
Date 1919-1940
#1 (free weight) 275
#2(grade climbing) 25 (using Chris' formula would give about 48. this may need some testing)
Accel. Avg (anything lower and this beast would nver move :) )
Appeal. Ugly
Reliability: Avg
Cost: 220 000 (???? i don't know )
Fuel Economy: Bel Avg
Maintenance: 30 000

Any comments?

[WPandP]

What are the comparable specs on the P2 4-8-2? I think this will be its nearest competition, and for gameplay purposes I think the Mallet ought to fall pretty close to midway between the 4-8-2 and the Big Boy, other than perhaps in speed. I think top speed should match the high end of the range wsherrick provided (i.e. 35 mph), or maybe goose it just a bit to 40 mph so that it appeals to the AI. I just think at 30 mph it will be too slow to be of any real use, and my main point in going through with all of this is to end up with an articulated engine that actually gets used.

Also, I think it should remain available longer, even if 1940 is somewhat historical. I'm picturing this engine representing the whole Y class, not just a Y3, although I suppose we could tweak the specs and just make all the Y variations if we wanted to. N&W ran its big Y6's right up until 1960, so maybe make them available as new up until say 1950. Again, this can always be tweaked by events so it isn't a huge issue.

Cost could be a little more, say 270-ish. And grade climbing should be better - this is gonna be like the shay, slow and ugly but sure-footed.

[bombardiere]

oopps that grade climbing was a mistake. I meant 38. (was thinking Class J) (Shay 30, Big Boy 45, P-2 14 ? depending which version you are using.)

Ok, 35 MPH is ok. I don't want to go to 40 MPH. I feel that this is real slow beast. End date 1950 is ok, too. I was just thinking to cut it as there will be other Mallets available. I have introduced so many new engines that in some scenarios I have actually too many choices And yes high cost is a good thing.

I pack this by tomorrow and may be you can test the specs and etc.

[WPandP]

I still think 35 is too slow for gameplay purposes. At that speed, the only engines slower than it would be the Shay and the two oldest engines in the game (Planet and Adler) which are unavailable after 1857! Maybe the game designers made a mistake by making the Big Boy too fast, now that I look at it (faster than the Challenger?), but in order to "fit" with the other choices at that time period, it ought to be at least 40 mph. I think they upped the speed on the Big Boy to compensate for the fact that there are no super-long trains in the game, and the same thing goes here; since we can't load a mallet down with enough cars to actually tax its limits, it ought to have a chance to compete in the speed department.

[wsherrick]

The 35 MPH limit was in regard to the Z class. The Y class could make 50-55 MPH and did on a daily basis. The cost to operate a Y class should be much less than a Big Boy. The Y's were compound and hence far more efficient than the Challenger or Big Boy as they were single expansion types. Again, remember that the Y6b produced more work at a lower cost than ANY other locomotive period. That includes diesels and electrics. See, "N&W Giant Of Steam," by Jefferies. The N&W was FORCED to retire them, they didn't want to, see, "Economic Results of Diesel Electric Power," by Brown, here in the Forum.
The Y6b didn't have quite the horsepower of a Big Boy, but blew them away with tractive effort. The Y6b has the most starting tractive effort of any locomotive ever built to this very day. They had a wopping starting tractive effort of 166,000 pounds I hope you guys don't mind me jumping in here with all of this stuff. It's just the N&W is near and dear to me and I hope it helps with your design efforts.

[WPandP]

You warm my heart, wsherrick!

I really do agree that the Y6b ought to be an exemplary engine, but I can see the argument for gameplay purposes of making them less appealing. Technically, what we've got going is a Y3, but I pointed out that due to the game's limits on number of engines (user content in general), it really needs to be almost a "generic" mallet. Thus, they need to fit within the parameters marked out by the data points given in the default engines.

But it does sound much more reasonable to me to let their top speed be closer to 50 mph, especially since the challenger goes up to 60 and the big boy to 70. Even at 50, they are slower than almost all their contemporary engines.

Maintenance at $24k perhaps? Just slightly more than for a Northern.

[bombardiere]

TO me the big question is which engine we are making Y3 or Y6. I agree that Y6 should go over 50 MPH, but what about earlier engines? I have an article about Y6, which mentions about earlier versions too. It states after some improvements to Y5, speeds around 50 MPH were achieved.

So 40 MPH and acceleration drop to Bel Avg. But then you guys are right and the engine is not really useful in the game. Personally I am afraid of making super engines, which make other obsolete. Which has kind of happen with P-2 and Hudson. I have been talking about this engine with Chris, but I haven’t been enthuastic about it, because it is not really useful in the game due game’s limitations. To a Mallet be really efficient it would need more than 10 cars.

Anyway, if you are skinning it, I am happy to give it any specs wanted. I honestly I like a new engine too, and hopefully it gives nice variation to the game.