New American Locomotives.

[nedfumpkin]

I think you have the names fixed in that there will be a I and an II and the Condolidation I will not expire, but I am going to move the Consolidation II up to 1880 for a start year.

So far the P42DC is the only new late diesel I have made. I'm also thinking of adding two more passenger diesels...but again, I am going to use stand-ins right now for the models because it is taking so long. Which ones are you referring to?

I have some time booked off work this weekend, and I am hoping to spend it on getting this stuff put together. So all your ideas are welcome.

[Blackhawk]

I didn't really have any in mind specifically, I was just remembering an earlier thread were some diesels were talked about. I'm not sure but this may have been the thread. http://www.hawkdawg.com/forums/viewtopi ... =70&t=2735

[nedfumpkin]

I just cchecked and the original Consolidation is made up as a PRR locomotive, so I am going to make the second Consolidation a PRR loco as well as the new 4-4-0. These will be the defaults, and then as part of the PRR custom pack, I'll put in a skin for the orignal 4-4-0 American as a PRR locomotive.

[KenRuof]

You da man Ned!!! Can't wait till I can try the PRR stuff out

[nedfumpkin]

Here are the new Cowboy Engines for Trainmaster. These are just for testing and they will be included in a loco pack I am working on to add a few new engines. This has the old American renamed to Standard 4-4-0 and the new loco coming in 1870 as an American 4-4-0, which is when then mae 'Amercian' came into use.

The Consolidation II comes in 1880, and the both of them are powerful freight haulers as 50 mph and 55 mph respectively.

Both new locomotives are from the P.R.R liveries. The new American is pulling the same tender as the original Consolidation, and the new Consoldiation is pulling the same tender as the Eight Wheeler....just to mix them up a bit. :)

I thought about making changes to the 8 Wheeler, but it is based on an actual loco that ran at 112 mph in 1893. Was thinking of tweeking it to be a top speed of 90 mph (instead of 102), and drop the price to $150k from $180, and make it available in 1890. Thoughts?

American 4-4-0 - Top Speed 65 mph

Consolidation II 2-8-0 - Top Speed 55 mph


******I just noticed that the Standard 4-4-0 had no tender... fixed that ******

[nedfumpkin]

Here is a map in progress that uses both of these two new locomotives.

This will eventually be the last of the 1800s campaign maps, and it will be called Deadwood Dakota. It's about gold rushes.

I'm note exactly sure where I left off but you can probably get a good 15 years of play out of this. It uses work gangs and your track has to be laid monthly. i.e. you get an alotment of track per month based on the work crews you hire. I'm still balancing that out.

Average express speed must be kept highor else you risk robberies, although that's not in there just yet. I'm also working on the start date so that could cause some problems. But it'll give you a chance to try out the new engines.

Also, you must bring passengers to the towns for them to get settled and develop agriculture and industry.


Edit...the first posting of this map didn't have two locomotives available...fixed that.

[nedfumpkin]

Had to make some changes to the first uploads but everything should work okay now. Once it has been tested and everything works, I will make the locos available for 1.05 and 1.06, but those will have expiry dates on the locomotives.

[thietavu]

Great work! :) And it's wonderful to have new locos available. There can hardly be too many of them. ;)

Some random thoughts about the locomotives in the game:

There are some models in this game that are superior, bad or even close to useless because of one thing or another. Re-adjusting or even replacing those might improve the game. Examples:

- The 4-4-0:s: S3 can last forever, being almost a perfect engine, whereas other 4-4-0 designs are much less reliable and durable. Was S3 really that superior to other designs?

- Class P8 is also superior to the "normal" Consolidations, lasting virtually forever. Again - was the real world difference that great?

- Pacific 4-6-2's reliability seems a bit low to me. At least in Finland the HR1 Pacifics were among the most reliable engines with great reputation.

- Zephyr is a disaster in this game: it will break apart when you just look at it.

- Big Boy also wears very fast, which puzzles me. Wasn't it a rather reliable engine?

- Ivatt 800 hp: another disaster on wheels. Underpowered, absolutely unreliable and unusable for about everything... ;)

- Deltic also seems to be unreliable to the point where I don't dare to use it anywhere. Was this reality?


Some new models we might wish to have:
----------------------------------------------
- Another, more modern Shinkansen would nicely fill the gap between the old Shinkansen and only much later appearing Eurostar etc.
- Russian L -or LV-class heavy 2-10-0 / 2-10-2 freight engines. Now there are no locomotives to use on Russian railways but the VL80T (okay, they used some American models, but anyway...)
- Russian P36, heavy express engine of type 4-8-4 (instead of having just dozens of almost similar American classes, it would also be nice to see engines which were used elsewhere in the world.)
- Russian M62 diesel freight engine (very common around some parts of the old world). The twin-version is 2M62.
- Russian 2TE116 diesel freight engine (also very common and still in production, 6000 hp)
- Russian VL10 electric freight engine
- Norwegian gigantic IORE 2x7200hp ore freight engine. Perfect for those toughest mountain tracks.
- AND (!) the Garratts! :) British answers to the "mallets" - super powerful steam giants for Africa and many other places!

The reason why I emphasize the Russian types is their significance in the old world. They were - and still are - used in most former East European countries, all the former Soviet republics, East-Asia, Africa, etc. Unless one only wants to play American or UK scenarios, having this kind of variety would, I think, bring great variety to the game experience! :) The basic US/UK classes are about represented by now - how about next covering the rest of the world and its standard classes? After all, it gives us room for imagination, too. As you may know, some heavy Chinese QJ 2-10-2s have been sold to USA lately. What about using QJs instead of American engines in your American railroad company - for price, for example? :) Or some very successful heavy Russian types? Whoever said that USA only had to export engines - it could have imported them as well. And we can do it in RRT3, if we wish. :)

Just some food for thoughts, I hope.

[KenRuof]

Nice Ned,

I will put them to work immediately, as for the 8 wheeler I would leave it alone at least the speed as it was a fast engine, price???

Russian engines sounds good, I do agree on the Big Boy they were good engines, could haul a lot etc...

Thanks
Ken

[arop]

I find that the 8-wheeler is a mistake. The original engine, being a speed record holder, was a loner and NOT representive for a more modern 4-4-0. According to railway litterature, this engine was later rebuilt with smaller driving wheels for more general use. I think, that a slower 8-wheeler would be desireable: an engine a little faster than the ten wheler, but less powerful. Speeds of 100 mph was an absolute exception in 1892!

[nedfumpkin]

Currently there are 103 locomotives out of a maximum 129. Adding new locomotives isn't a problem, it is more finding models for them. But in the mean time it is possible to include the new locomotives and then replace the models as new ones can be made.

So I will look into the list and try to put something together. One thing I am debating is making the MP40 since the P42DC and F40PH pretty much cover the passenger hauling in North America and the MP40 is roughly the same characteristics. So I am wondering if there is a real need for it.

I will start working on the rest of the list of new locomotives and do my best to accomplish it. Links would help on any of them.

I'll also take a look at some of the modifications on the list and see what makes sense in the overall scheme.

So give me a bit of time to make some new skins where it is possible, and then I'll put it all together.

As for the Zephyr...I will see what I can come up with. To me personally, it is a wasted engine that I never use...so maybe it should be made into something useable. I'm open to thoughts on this.

The 8 Wheeler that is in the game is based on a single engine. This was just before the 4-4-0s went out of general use. It's still a 4-4-0 so I wanted, in my original thinking, to make it a progession of the American (the new one) to give a set of three representational 4-4-0s across their history. They are an important part of the RR history of the 19th century for passenger hauling. I dunno, I am really leaning towards doing it, because as Arop wrote, it is based on a single engine...even in the game is it No 999. So I will think on this a bit...although the changes will only be slight.

[KenRuof]

The 8 Wheeler that is in the game is based on a single engine. This was just before the 4-4-0s went out of general use. It's still a 4-4-0 so I wanted, in my original thinking, to make it a progession of the American (the new one) to give a set of three representational 4-4-0s across their history. They are an important part of the RR history of the 19th century for passenger hauling. I dunno, I am really leaning towards doing it, because as Arop wrote, it is based on a single engine...even in the game is it No 999. So I will think on this a bit...although the changes will only be slight.

Yeah you guys are right, I forgot about the NYC doing that to get the speed record. 90 mph sounds about right. The 4-4-0 held the "most produced" record for wheel arrangement for a long time.

Ken

PS: Thanks for the Cow Boy Engines... will be trying them out soon.

[Hawk]

For whatever it's worth, if you need an empty engine slot, in my opinion the Orca can be done away with, if it already hasn't.
Why they ever put that in the game is beyond me.

[nedfumpkin]

I think that is what I was thinking of when I said Zephyr..it's the mystery loco...might as well make it something worthwhile.

[Hawk]

Yep! The Orca is the mystery loco.

[thietavu]

Yup, the Orca and the Zephyr (+ Ivatt) at least feel pretty useless to me, despite their novelty value. As you know I'm looking at this from the "rest of the world" point of view now, and try to think of locomotives most useful for scenarios in Europe outside UK, Asia, Africa, etc - because the original RRT3 didn't much care about these places. ;)

There are some major differences between USA, UK and the "rest of the world" in engine usage and development. For example, the Garratt -type was very popular in Africa due to its light axle load, yet mighty power. Necessary features for many African countries. They were also very unique in their appearance - probably tricky to model but look cool! :)

As for Northern Europe, our earliest steam locos were imported from USA, UK or sometimes from Germany, but with one key difference: they tended to be smaller and have lighter axle loads than especially the US engines. Our 8-wheelers' top speed was also lower, only 45..60 mph because there was no need for more until later in the 1900s. 4-6-0s became obsolete in the USA quite early, but here they were common in mixed and passenger use until about 1960 - and light 2-8-0s were among the last steams in use here until 1974. Scandinavia has plenty of wood, mostly lightly built tracks unsuitable for massive locos, mostly quite level tracks and fuel economy + reliability much more important than power and speed. That resulted in some very good 10-wheeler and Consolidation classes which were fairly competitive against diesels until the Seventies! :) And even better Pacific and Mikado classes.

Funny enough, but one of Finland's first and longest used diesel classes, Dv15/16 was mechanically a 0-8-0 with even many parts taken directly from our Consolidation classes. It was pretty much what RRT3's Ivatt tried to be: a relatively low power (ca. 1000 hp) shunter/road engine with light axle load, good economy and reliability. It would have been hopelessly underpowered for North America, but it could handle many of Finland's shorter and lighter freight trains, sometimes even passenger tasks admirably - and so it was used from 1958 to 2008! That's 50 years! :) Dv15 and more powerful Dv16 were, like most Finnish steam classes, unique designs with no relationship to US or UK designs (even appearance was quite different), and very successful ones. Good examples of engines developed and ideal for local needs in smaller countries outside USA and UK. If we want real variety in RRT3's fleet of engines, something like Dv15 could be a nice replacement to Ivatt, I think: an actually usable, light, reliable, affordable diesel capable of handling rough tracks. :)

I shall find some links to the models I've suggested...

[nedfumpkin]

I took at look at the P36 and it looks a lot like a Northern, both are 4-8-4s. So Comrade Citizen, I am working on making a P36 for all your Soviet invasion needs. :)

[arop]

As an European I miss tank engines for minor duties. Swichers with tender are very rare in Europe. Once I had an idea of halfing the Mexican Fairley, another to my opinion useless engine, into a 0-6-0 tank engine, but Bombardiere told me that it was beyond his skills to do so, pity! it could have become a useful little engine

[thietavu]

Yes, tank engines were commonly used as local passenger trains in Europe. A good example is German BR62 class tank engine which was (with small changes) used in Helsinki area commuter traffic under class name PR2.

Just for curiosity... This PR2 class became notorious, even feared among train crews once one of the class exploded on track, killing the crew. The reason seemed to have something to do with unreliable water gauges. Another thing causing nightmares to train crews was this reasonably fast engine's tendency to feel like a small ship in a storm when the water in the tanks started to move while in high speed...

But anyway, another German-made Finnish commuter tank engine class, PR1 was flawless and even used as a freight engine in short distances! ;)

[thietavu]

Instead of just talking about individual engine types, I think we could also discuss some "strategies" behind the choices we make.

The current situation:
--------------------------
- North America: almost all the common & important engine classes are covered now, I believe (okay, I know that there could always be this and that model more - but you know what I mean ;) ).
- UK: the situation is also very good. :)
- Rest of Europe: a few scattered engines with little logic behind the selection. Mostly from Germany. :(
- Russia: 2 engines (before the P36), I think. Not a great situation with a country whose engines have been used in half the world... >:(
- China: 1 engine from a country with absolutely huge railroad system and an interesting technical history! They have also exported their engines to many countries. Not good. >:(
- Africa: what about Africa? There are no Garratts in the game (yet). The Red Devil is the sole African model. :(
- Australia: nothing, unless I remember wrong... :(

Where to possibly go:
----------------------------
1. I think the most important and interesting country regarding the "rest of the world" railways is Russia. Their engines from steam to modern electrics have been used in dozens of countries. One could say that about everything we can find in East Asia, Africa, Eastern Europe and some other places (like South America) represents either US, British - or Russian - design or manufacturing. Therefore I'd suggest creating a reasonable selection of most popular Russian steam, diesel and electric classes for possible use in most of the RRT3 scenarios. They might not be your favs for some US or UK maps, but elsewhere they have definitely always been real alternatives.

2. China: the sheer size of the country + its influence in the world would, I think, make a similar kind of a "basic selection" a good idea. Maybe 3 steams, 2 diesels, 2 electrics - or something like that.

3. Japan: at least 1 more Shinkansen would be welcome, wouldn't it? Maybe a couple of other common, successful types too?

4. Africa: Garratt-Garratt-Garratt... What a wonderful steam loco! ;) I'd suggest one old model and one very late model for Africa scenarios.

5. Europe: this would be tricky because about every country here has had their own, often pretty unique designs. Still, some types have been more successful than others - for example. class 460 (already in the game) and the "Pendolino" are used in many countries. Some local designs could also be both interesting and useful for many scenarios. Some suggestions:
- Dv12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VR_Class_Dv12 A light, versatile, technically very different (from US designs) and nice looking diesel freight/passenger engine. 48 years now on the road - and still going strong. I'd call that a modern classic. :) Since there are both single and twin-versions of some US diesels in the game, I'd suggest making this a similar, European alternative with 1 and 2 engine configurations. Especially suitable for branch lines, excellent economy and reliability + not expensive.
- IORE freightsaurus from Norway. Perfect for those endless mountain ore trains...

General observations:
---------------------------
Since I've been testing two huge scenarios (China and Northern Europe) for hundreds of hours, from 1850 to 2020, I've noticed some "gaps":

- There are no very usable freight engines besides the Consolidation available before ca. 1901. Not very exciting, especially if you play scenarios with many countries and you wish to use different kinds of engines in different countries. Now it's pretty much: "Sweden: Consolidation. Norway: Consolidation. Finland: Consolidation. China: Consolidation. Russia: Consolidation... etc etc ;) ) - unless you want to be a sadist and give the Swedes something like Baldwin 0-6-0 or the Camelback... :) There were lots of more or less usable freight engines from 1860 to 1900 - but they don't appear in the game. What would you guys suggest to give us some more freight choices in those early years of steam? 2-6-0s? 2-6-2s? 0-8-0? They all existed way before 1900...

- The 4-6-0, 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 appear very late in RRT3. This forces one to use obsolete engines far into 1900s.

- It would be nice to have a decent mountain climber somewhere between the ol' slow Shay and the 2-6-6-2 and 2-8-8-2 monsters 50..60 years later. Any ideas? Garratts?