New Scenario

[Grandma Ruth]

Ned, in another thread you said:

"Spawning industries is frowned upon greatly, and the design of Trainmaster does not lend well to it. This is the most important aspect of this mod, and should be kept in mind. Industries should be placed on the map during creation, or added using the events, or built by the player. Only municipal buildings are left to spawn in the game, and these are what forms the cities and is based on growth and service. This should be factored in when creating maps."

I don't understand the rationale behind this. Could you explain why it's not good to spawn?

And why do you say the maps should be quite big? The test map is quite big, but we were only using a small part of it?

I want to do it right, but these are some of the things I'm not getting even before I start!

The scenario I'm thinking of will be based on an existing map because I just don't have the artistic/creative ability to make maps from scratch. The goal will be to keep each individual industry profitable and to do that I'll need to pre-build a company and some industries. The difficulty then is that these industries will be running at a loss so saddling the player with a problem right at the start. Unless I add them by event, which is what I think I'll do.

Anyway, a better understanding of the logic behind the game would help.

[nedfumpkin]

The first thing I should point out is that after months and months of RT therapy, I should probably admit that there is a bit of bias in me on this subject. I think it comes from consistency. I like maps that are consistently the same every time I start a new scenario. I have always prefered this to the randomness of some maps, and to overcome it, If I liked a map then I would load it then save the map right away. This way, after my multiple start overs, it would always be the same map. Sometimes I'd like to try something, and when you restart the map it's all different. Just a preference.

When creating a new map and scenario, I think after having played the game now, you can see that it will take a bit more strategy to accomplish some goals. Agircultural communities are towns, so they shouldn't be spawned. Industries location should be based on resources, and how it fits into the overall game. Leaving them to spawn could create havoc on your cities. Again, always bearing in mind that the expansion of the municipal buildings inserts the randomness achieved from spawning, but beyond player control.

It does come down to map creator preferences, and well, energy. I admit that it takes a lot more time to create a map but I think experience will eventually guide us on which balance to achieve. I'm not saying not to do it, because it really comes down to preferences, but I still discourage it if it can be avoided.

In the Black Diamonds scenario, when it starts it will have some mines pre-built, but as the game moves on, prospecters will be hired to find new ones, and based on the funding levels, the locations will change for new mines. In designing the cargo industry for TM, my plan was always to put more game control into the hands of the scenario writer, and leave less to chance. I'm leaning much more towards the story based scenarios with a lot of cause and effect, and multiple outcomes. In this way, maps could be played more than once, and for different goals. To do this will require much more control on how a map seeds itself.

In answer to your question about a pre-built company. I'm convinced that history is kept on industries, and the way to do what you want is to place the industries you want your company to own at different times on the map. This way it will give them some time to have cargo move to them before the scenario actually starts. This way they could be profitable before the game starts, not necessarily gushing cash, but at least not in the red. Of note, if you build an industry after the date the scenario starts, it will not show any profits until that year.

[Grandma Ruth]

Right, I see. It is largely a difference in playing preferences -I can re-load a map a dozen times till I get the right seed, I quite like the inconsistency!

I think my map will be a compromise with some resources being random and some, like the agricultural communities, being fixed. Another thing is, I don't quite "get" the agricultural communities. The only places I'm familiar with in real life are Yorkshire and Illinois. In Yorkshire we have sheep on the hills and cows in the valleys. In downstate Illinois they have corn. Miles and miles and miles of corn. Nothing else. So the dairy farms and wool and corn farms are more realistic for my limited experience of farming than the agricultural communities that provide everything.

I'm sorry, I don't want to "rain on your parade" as they say over there. I'm not being critical, just curious as to how these things came about? I'm already a fan of TM, as you can see!!!

Edit: I've had another look at the scenario I'm doing, and I'm still not getting it. Sorry, must be having a stupid day! The cities will only spawn what the scenario writer tells them to, so if I want - which I do - a theme park in Bayreuth to represent the operatic tourists, then I put "theme park" as 80 or 90 or 100 % likely to spawn or I pre-build one. What's the difference? This particular map has 122 cities, so making up the city "recipe" in bulk is going to be a lot easier than building hundreds of individual buildings.

[nedfumpkin]

I understand what you mean by having 122 cities, and not wanting to place them all with industries. Makes sense, and I completely understand. It's up to the scenario creator, and I am just expressing the design perspective. I think with the new cargo system, it will take practice to find out what works and what doesn't.

When creating the agricultural communties, I took into consideration that I was creating a generic mix that wouldn't necessarily apply everywhere. And so I figured the best way to overcome this is by creating terrritories, like possibly counties where a start-up event, or series of them could shape the cargo supplie of the coummunities. Therefore, a place that has heavy livestock, but little grains need only an event to reduce production 200% to remove those cargo which you dont want.

Of the four types, plus the specialties, you can pretty much come up with anything that is on the ground, or so I tried to make it.

[Grandma Ruth]

Right, that's interesting. I see.
Now I've finished my base map so I thought I'd post it here in case anybody else wants to use it. I made the mistake of deciding to use a "Germany" map, not thinking that the political composition of Europe changes every two minutes so the Germany of 1870 is vastly different from modern Germany. This map is now up-to-date as of 2004, when the EU was enlarged to take in some of the ex-USSR states. Won't make any difference to the game, but I just wanted it to be as accurate as I can manage. Also I think TM lends itself more towards modern industries than the nineteenth century ones.
Edit: the link to this map is now several posts further along - I've changed it a couple of times so anybody who might be interested should have a look at subsequent posts.

[Wolverine@MSU]

I looked at your map Ruth, and there are no Agricultural Communities, hence no Corn, Grain, Milk, Livestock etc. Can't make Beer without Grain, and that would surely pi$$-off the Germans.

[nedfumpkin]

I'm in the middle of making the factory, so I can't load the map until I'm done. But I have tried to make industries appropriate to eras. While initially designed for the post WW2 era, I tried to make it interesting for the 1800s and early 1900s.

[Grandma Ruth]

I looked at your map Ruth, and there are no Agricultural Communities, hence no Corn, Grain, Milk, Livestock etc. Can't make Beer without Grain, and that would surely pi$$-off the Germans.

No, that's why I said it's "almost" a base map - all the TM features are to be added "to taste"!

[nedfumpkin]

I managed to load it and I figured that it was waiting for some very patient person to look up the towns and then create the communities accordingly. Maybe hire a local teenager to do it as a summer job. I do admit that this could be perceived as a downside to TM, the extra work required to making maps, but I have discovered that one you get the haang of it, it becomes easier.

[Grandma Ruth]

I've replaced that base map with one which is a bit better. I've put in the agricultural communities and added rubber to the port cargoes, otherwise there won't be any available! I also found there were one or two territories that were not accessible - left-over from the previous map. So this version should be ready to go!

[nedfumpkin]

Considering the industry I work in, I tried to make it so that imports were pretty much necessary in each scenario if you make it geo-specific since no country is self-sufficient for everything.

[Grandma Ruth]

What a job! I've spent a few happy and instructive lunchtimes with Wikipedia and have now got the cities reflecting real life, for the most part. Please feel free to use this map if you like and alter it as you want. I've already started a company due to the scenario I'm planning but I'm sure it can be easily got rid of if you don't want anything pre-built.
I won't be able to base my goals on industry profits, unfortunately, it doesn't work with a territory, so it will have to be cargoes hauled, which is a bit of a shame. Not to worry, at least I'm glad to have got all those cities sorted!

TM - Modern Germany Base.zip

(4.36 MiB) Downloaded 240 times

[nedfumpkin]

I'm sort working on the Black Diamonds map right now, so I'll leave the Germany map for someone else if they want.

I am wokring on doing the same thing, researching the cities and towns in 1845. I'm trying to find a map of the mines from that era.

Edit...found this....

http://www.mapsofpa.com/19thcentury/1830dolittle.jpg

[Grandma Ruth]

Here it is - it's a very simple map as far as the gameplay goes, though I found it hard to write, lots of events the player doesn't see. No storyline to speak of, just basic hauling requirements. It's more or less a test map to see how TM behaves.
Have fun with it and feel free to use it as a basis for something else.

Vorsprung durch Technik.zip

(4.38 MiB) Downloaded 244 times

[nedfumpkin]

I am checking it our right now. I'll also convert it to Alpha 2 and include it with the next zip. I got bogged down making the Dorchester 0-4-0, and spent 3 days trying to move some wheels forward so I am a bit behind.

[nedfumpkin]

I've been trying to get this scenario going but I am running into some problems.

The industries are really populating the map and making it very crowded. At Jena, I got 3 pharma plants on start up and a some municipal buildings. With the terrain so bumpy, it is really difficult to lay track and keep it under 5 percent grade. I find that I am getting 2 or 3 of everything in each city.

Another thing I've found is that you can only start with the glass haulage because until glass is made, nothing else can be. You need glass to make electronics, and those are needed for the machinery and autos production. But in order to make glass, you need chemicals, and in order to make chemicals, you need alcohol, which requires glass.

As a result, you have to rely on secondary methods of supplying your need cargo which is extending the chain further out.

My suggestion would be to reduce the number of industries that are spawning, and possibly change a warehouse or two to supply the needed input cargos so that the thing can get going.

If you want, I would suggest waiting until I can get it converted to Apha 2 files, and fit it in as the first campaign map for the 21st century. I'm almost done...should be finished later in the week.

[Grandma Ruth]

That sounds good to me, except I'm not sure it's suitable to be in the campaign - it's only a very basic test map. But it's up to you.

I always thought there might be problems with these kind of circular demands where you need 'thing a' to make 'thing b' and also need 'thing b' to make 'thing a' !

Another thing I've noticed is that there's an awful lot of waste created - as I suppose there is in real life. Just look at it in the supply and demand view, all you can see is hundreds of waste arrows. I don't know what the answer is, but could you have buildings create a bit less?

People are going to want scenarios with plenty of cities in - maybe not quite as many as this one - but any large map is going to create all this overproduction. Is it also something to do with a late start date of 2004? Does production increase according to gameyears or years elapsed? I mean will there be more produced in 2004 than 1894, regardless of when the scenario start date is, or does production increase as the scenario progresses? Or both?

I'll have another look at it when I get home but I think you're right to wait till it's converted.

[Hawk]

but any large map is going to create all this overproduction. Is it also something to do with a late start date of 2004? Does production increase according to gameyears or years elapsed? I mean will there be more produced in 2004 than 1894, regardless of when the scenario start date is, or does production increase as the scenario progresses? Or both?

I just had a look at your map in the Editor and I see you have your starting building density set at 185%. That might explain the initial building density.

[nedfumpkin]

I noticed the excess in waste production too, and I agree that it should be reduced, which I am going to do today.

You are correct that there is a difference in pretty much everything from 1894 t0 2004. The circular demands have to be taken into consideration, and it's more a case of needing a to make b so as to make c but you need c to make a. Warehouses and ports can fill in the gaps, or by strategically placing some industries in map making. Industrial parks will help out with this in later years, but they are municipal buildings so they are randomly spawned based on city size, etc.

The campaigns are being created by time period, so this will be a good first map for the 2000s.

[Grandma Ruth]

Thanks, Hawk. Don't know why it's set so high, at least it's easy to correct if that's it. Nice avatar - is that you with a halo or what?