Scenario in progress - "Warrington Wire" (CA02)

[Hawk]

If I remember right, the purpose of creating a territory specifically for the port is to keep anything else from building in the radius the port needs.
If you don't create a specific territory, when it comes time to place the port there may be a house or something in the radius designated for the port, in which case the port can't be built because something is in it's way.

I went back and checked the map I tried to use a port placing event and that event is no longer there. I'm thinking I did away with that event because I found that the port didn't get placed 100% of the time when the event fired, although I could be wrong on that. I'm depending on my memory from something I did back in '06 or '07.

[edbangor]

The port will generate in a territory of it's own anyway so that shouldn't be an issue, although I could turn off all building in that territory just to be sure, as it's not doing anything of any importance (just houses etc)
If nothing else works I'll just have to go back to placing the port in the editor as i had to start with, I just don't want it to 'leek' it's demands/supplies

[Hawk]

The port will generate in a territory of it's own anyway so that shouldn't be an issue,

...unless something else generates in the port's radius. Hence the thought of creating a smaller territory within the bigger territory and setting all other buildings to 0% within the smaller territory.

[edbangor]

Nothing can generate in the ports radius as there's nothing generating in that territory at all. (it's set to 0)

Anyway, I've had some experiments, and managed to get the port to appear from the Add event.
Then, I saved the game just before the trigger should occur and kept reloading it and over a total of 12 attempts when NOTHING else was changed, the port only appeared three time.

So clearly using ADD port just doesn't work every time which is no use in this scenario, as some of the goals will be based around the items the port will provide and demand so if it doesn't appear, when it should, there'll be no way to win.

Unless there's some way to make the port appear EVERY TIME, then I'm going to have to rethink things. Annoyingly when I changed the port for a warehouse that appeared EVERY time but doesn't work.

Next I'm going to try strightening the coastline to see if that makes a difference, which I doubt, but it's the only thing I can think off, even though I don't see how it can make a difference as the coastline isn't changing.

[Hawk]

Like I mentioned, I think that's why I deleted the event I was trying to use because the port would not generate 100% of the time.

[edbangor]

Indeed, so it would seem
I've tried turning off waves, and flattening the surrounding land to ocean level which does seem to have improved changes of the port generating but still at best it's only 50/50 that it will appear.

Back to the drawing board. I think.
I could, I guess place an 'empty' port there at the start of the game and then have a warehouse generate with the goods I need at the timeline when Canada Docks was built.
That should work, if slightly clumsy.

Unless anyone can think of something better?

[nedfumpkin]

Try expanding the radius. I'm having the same problem with my port at Sorel. Also, make sure there are no reserved cells in the area where you want the port to appear...this is in the rivers/oceans/paint tool. Just below oceans.

[Blackhawk]

I made a quick test map and just made a square area as an ocean and tested putting ports on it. A port would then spawn when I started a company. It seems to me that with a perfectly straight coast, and the the correct X,Y coordinate I got probably an 75-80% appearance rate. Maybe use multiple events or within the same event add multiple ports in the same place or a coordinate or two off and I'd imagine that would increase their chances of appearing. I doubt it'll get up to 100% certainty but it might get close to it. [edit: to clarify I don't mean make the # of ports greater where you input the # of buildings to spawn and X,Y coordinates, rather put "add port at X, Y" "add port at X,Y" ]

If you use a variety of events with it being coordinate or two off, if they are close enough to the other coordinate I'd think only 1 port could appear as the others would try to place but find an object already there and not place. Or maybe it would be possibly to use a territory along the coast except for in one area and if the events lead to possible multiple ports then use a destroy event in the other territories.

You might also be able to use an event choice to make sure a player sees a port there: "Did a port appear?" And use variables to replay the add port event until a port is successfully added.

[nedfumpkin]

Another alternative is to place the port and then set a territory around it and make it not produce anything until the time is right. I think I am going to do this since there is only one spot to place my port and the chances of it appearing, in conjunction with other conditions is too small.

[Blackhawk]

Another alternative is to place the port and then set a territory around it and make it not produce anything until the time is right. I think I am going to do this since there is only one spot to place my port and the chances of it appearing, in conjunction with other conditions is too small.

I thought about that but I wasn't sure if the production modifiers worked on ports/warehouses, if they do then I would imagine that would be the best route to take in most cases rather than trying to get a decent coast and find a proper X,Y coordinate and hoping it'll appear.

[nedfumpkin]

Yes, they do work because it is based on the cargo production for the territory not the individual industry. Doesn't seem to affect demand at ports though...by not really sure. Currently in Birth of a Nation the ports shut down in winter ans stop producing until summer.

Something else I discovered, and this pertains to ledgers....

If you have played BOAN at all in the latest incarnation, the ledger appears to repeat text. This is because the conditions for the first version of the ledger remain true when the conditions for the second version become true, so it appends the ledger text to the first.

This can be used for creating a ledger with the basic information at the top. Then you can set conditions and associate text to it. You could have a few, but leave out the text in the basic information. As conditions are met, the text will append to the basic information...when the condition is no longer true, then it can disappear or get replaced.

For example, if a condition is for a connection, you can set the string to say unconnected, when the conection is made, a different event would say that it was. A goal unfinished would appear, but after completed, disappear or get replaced. The possibilities are endless.

Although it does not appear that it will spill to the next page.

[edbangor]

This can be used for creating a ledger with the basic information at the top. Then you can set conditions and associate text to it. You could have a few, but leave out the text in the basic information. As conditions are met, the text will append to the basic information...when the condition is no longer true, then it can disappear or get replaced.

I've been doing this in my last few scenarios but in this one I'm going to attempt a fully interactive ledger.
The only constant things on there will be the date (and the end date) and the number of points.
Everything else will be triggered to appear when they become active, and in most cases will disapear again once the conditions are met / or the time runs out.

This way I can get a lot more information onto a one page ledger than I could if everything was there all along. Plus it will give the player a few more surprises.

Anyway, progress on the map:
I've removed the Manchester Ship Canel for reasons mentioned above (somewhere)
For the port placement issue I've also done what I said above. Placed an "empty" port on the map, and then have a Canada Docks Warehouse place at the correct time. While not technicaly accurate, there was a port in Seaforth before the Canada Docks was built, so not too far out, and I can't run the rist of the port not generating.
I've also made the final plan for the points system that wil count towards the victories.
You will get a grandually increased number of points for the number of cities you connect (5, 10, 25, etc) but also bonus points for connecting the more historic railway cities on the map, with increased points the further they are from the start point.
However the main points will come from delievering steel from Sheffield to Warrington (or not) and later from bring goods to and from Seaforth and the Canda docks. For steel, this will be 1 point for more than ten loads in a year, but loose one, if less than 5. Seaforth will be similar but has yet to be worked out.
I've also cut back a bit on the historical notes I was doing, and will now only bring them up for ethose directly related to the history of the L&M and when connections are made to the historic railway cities.

Next I need to work out some more side stories, and the access to other territories.
After that will be a full test play, to see how things work out [fingers crossed]

[Blackhawk]

I did some testing with the port issue:
I straightened the coast out a little and then used the same event but changed the X, Y coordinate since the coast was slightly changed. Using just 1 event the port seemed to appear about 50-60% of the time. (a couple times a building may have appeared on the coast but I didn't bulldoze them)

I repeated the above but modified the event to have "add port" 3 times with each at the same (X,Y) coordinates.
After 15 tries, 11 times 1 port appeared, 3 times 2 ports appeared, and on the 15th attempt, no port appeared. (I think this might have been because a house spawned too close to where the ports "spawn." I bulldozed the house, and copied the event so it would repeat, and then 2 ports appeared).

I also increased the density of Seaforth and tested it out a few times and went 5 for 5. As despite being more populated few buildings appeared on the coast

I then increased the starting population density as well to 500% and Seaforth's was at 400% and several buildings appeared repeatedly on the coast and I went 0 for 2. I then created a territory along the coast and used an event to destroy any buildings in that territory before the "add port" event, and in this case the ports would be successfully added. (I only tried it a couple of times but I'd assume it would be like the other tests as no buildings would be preventing the port from being built).

I'd imagine with a territory destroying any houses that spawn near the coast, and then using the "add port" effect multiple times there would be close to a 95-100% appearance rate. Although occasionally 2 ports may appear. I'd need to test it but I'd think a well placed office building or house along the coast would reduce the chance of a 2nd port from being placed as it would limit the area that the placement could occur at. (Usually when only 1 port gets placed it's in the middle of the coast, but when 2 ports are placed, one ends up farther North and one is farther South. Although if the possible area the port can appear on is reduced, the port may appear with less frequency. This could likely be countered by just adding more "add ports" to the effect and still only 1 would appear.) [mathematically, if a port appears 60% of the time, then it fails 40% of the time. The more times you use the "add port" effect the less likely it is to fail, assuming the territory it is being placed on is clear. If it fails 40% of the time after 1 try, the likelihood of it failing after 2 attempts is 16% (40% * 40%) then the likelihood of failing after 3 attemps is 6.4% (40% * 40% * 40%) after 4 attempts it would be 2.5%.]

I didn't run any tests on using a coastal territory which cleared the coasts, and then placed the port just once, so I'm unsure of what the success/failure rate is this way. But as long as the coast is cleared and multiple "add port" effects are used, the failure rate would be minimal.

If you do just use the warehouse instead, did you test the warehouse placement at the 1856 population levels or just the 1830 levels? The more populated an area it seems the less likely the building is placed, at least when I was trying to place a bottling plant in Tampa on my scenario I had to find an X,Y point that wasn't too close to the water or town as to be disrupted by ocean, or a previously placed building as often it wouldn't appear either.

[Blackhawk]

I'll attach the file I was using in case you wanted to look at the coast or not. If kept like this the coast would likely need a slight repaint as the paint job makes it look like the water goes further up the coast than it actually does. Alternatively it could potentially be left like it is and it'll give the appearance that the coast isn't straight but still curved.
Also included is another territory for the coast, and a coastal demolishion event.

I made a last second addition and added a 4th "add port" at a coordinate 1 point off as I'm not entirely sure which point is the exact port placement. Being that it was just something I added, I have no idea if the 1 point makes any difference or not.

[edbangor]

If you do just use the warehouse instead, did you test the warehouse placement at the 1856 population levels or just the 1830 levels? The more populated an area it seems the less likely the building is placed, at least when I was trying to place a bottling plant in Tampa on my scenario I had to find an X,Y point that wasn't too close to the water or town as to be disrupted by ocean, or a previously placed building as often it wouldn't appear either.

Thanks for dong all this but I think I'm going to stick to the warehouse method as i really NEED that port to turn up.
Oh, and to avoid any problems with the warehouse, I've decreased Seaforth's building density to 0 (there is literally nothing there but the port) so there;s nothing to stop the warehouse appearing.

[Blackhawk]

I figured even if you didn't use the port, it was still worth testing and seeing how great of a chance an "add port" effect works for anyone else that tries to use it. And I had some free time at work so I figured I'd try testing it out to keep myself busy.

Oh, and to avoid any problems with the warehouse, I've decreased Seaforth's building density to 0 (there is literally nothing there but the port) so there;s nothing to stop the warehouse appearing.

If you ever wanted buildings to pop up in Seaforth (I'm not sure if it's important if there is any population in the city or not) you might consider having a building density but destroying all the buildings in the territory every month until after the warehouse pops up, then the town can start to grow larger. Or just use a couple manually placed houses out of the radius/placement area of the warehouse.

[edbangor]

I figured even if you didn't use the port, it was still worth testing and seeing how great of a chance an "add port" effect works for anyone else that tries to use it. And I had some free time at work so I figured I'd try testing it out to keep myself busy.

If you ever wanted buildings to pop up in Seaforth (I'm not sure if it's important if there is any population in the city or not) you might consider having a building density but destroying all the buildings in the territory every month until after the warehouse pops up, then the town can start to grow larger. Or just use a couple manually placed houses out of the radius/placement area of the warehouse.

No problem Blackhawk as if you'd managed to find a way to do it then I'd have used it, and have been known to do similar things myself.

In real life Seaforth is little more than the ports as it was set up around the Canada Docks which, as they imported more or less just timber, were built outside of the main Liverpool docks system, so that if they caught fire, they wouldn't take out the entire city of Liverpool. (can you tell I've been researching this!)
That said, I'll take your tip and add in some building in the editor - avoiding the spot where the warehouse will appear - so it doesn't look odd.
Seaforth will only become active near the end of the scenario game, so there's no need for it to be shipping passengers and the like so that won't matter.


Okay, other progress on the map, is that I've worked out one of the side stories, which will - or won't allow access to Derbyshire, based around the baking of Bakewell Tarts and Bakewell Puddings in... well.. Bakewell.
I've also added a couple of other towns in Derbyshire, and some rivers, to ensure the Bakewell Bakery can keep baking, until the rails get there.

That's all that's going to happen to the map today, as I've got some fruit to deliver to New York!!!

[Blackhawk]

That's all that's going to happen to the map today, as I've got some fruit to deliver to New York!!!

A reference to my scenario? Oh no. Hopefully it goes well and I didn't leave in any major bugs. I don't think the final version is as difficult as one of the early betas. My best advice, buy some industry first for a few years, then build the rails, and if you're lucky you might have bought an industry that is a gold mine.

[edbangor]

A reference to my scenario? Oh no. Hopefully it goes well and I didn't leave in any major bugs. I don't think the final version is as difficult as one of the early betas. My best advice, buy some industry first for a few years, then build the rails, and if you're lucky you might have bought an industry that is a gold mine.

It was, and now you've said it was earlier than the beta version I'm way to embarrassed to let you know how I did.

Anyway back on the safe ground of my own map I'm glad to announce that we now (in theory) have a working map.

George Stephenson has been re-instated as the chair of Liverpool and Manchester Railway. (that's actually what happened in real life!)
The the counties have now being fully populated, and their triggers worked out.
AI balancing had been carried out
Another side trip completed which could loose you points!!
A challenge for Seaforth is complete.
Ledger has been worked on.
A finish date has been worked out.

And now the game is going into the test play phase, so I get too see just how many stupid mistakes I made in the events.

[nedfumpkin]

Just as an fyi....the problem I ran into with CA01 crashing all the time was related to an event that added some buildings. I couldn't find the cause of the crash in the event, since they were correct, however, once I removed the event everything worked fine. So if you run into that problem testing your map, it's something to narrow your search.