Scenario in progress - "Warrington Wire" (CA02)

[edbangor]

As discussed elsewhere I'm in the process of making a real (well real-ish) time/place map currently titled Warrington Wire.

This is my first time making a scenario based on a real map, so I'm probably going to asking a lot of questions and here is where those questions start.

First off, thanks to Wolverine@MSU for provide the height map of the exact area I wanted.
To this I've now added the major towns, along with some minor ones that will be useful, and put in some of the major rivers. (thanks to Google maps, Multimaps, & wiki for that!)

Now the scenario is going to be this. We start just after the Liverpool and Manchester railway has been completed in 1830 which will be run by an AI (I'd like to make that a highly successful AI if possible but not one that expands.)
They will have Warrington Central station (running east / west) as part of their line, whereas the player will start at Warrington Bank Quay (north / south)
There will be several goals including providing everything to make the Wire which made Warrington rich although as this will be tricky until steel mills are around I may have to change the start date and be 'creative' with history. The steel will, of course come from Sheffield on the other side of the Pennines.
There will also be other side challanges, involving Welsh mountain railways and Bakewell Tarts amongst others but I've yet to think of anything that can make you want/need to get to Hull, (fish!) or down in the south east of the map.

If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions please make them in this thread and if anyone is good at UK geoghraphy, could they check I've made not stupid errors with the map. (exluding rivers where I know I took some liberties!).

[edbangor]

Ah good no one has answered yet as I have more questions.

First off, is there a special way to create - in the editor - a highly successful AI company?
I've made AI companies before, by setting one up, laying track, station etc, and then resigning from them, and use EVENTs to set them up once a real game starts. But is there a better way, to build them, especially one that will be very well established before the game actually starts, preferably without any time having passed. (Ie while the editor is paused).

I want the L&M line to be fully functioning, under an AI, and with exclusive rights to Greater Manchester & Mersyside, (there will need to be a bit of shared land between them for the tracks) before the player joins, to make it more of a challange to put them out of buisiness, or to take them over. I'd also love the L&M to run mostly on express traffic, if this is possible (using AI only events).

Also I want to set the scenario so the player can't build industry buildings so has to service those that are there already... any objections?

Finally can anyone - ie Ned - tell me when (the year) the following industries become active in TM - Steel, machinery, glass, cannery, ALiminium, & plastic.

Other cities to be added to the map include St Helens (glass production) and Wigan (pies = ie meat & flour) - Warrington will also have a Brewery but this will be shared by both stations (unlike the wire works).

I may also place a Gwizz Port on Hollyhead, to act as shipping lane to Ireland. Can any give me hints as to how to best use these, if there's anything I need to know about them?

[Blackhawk]

Finally can anyone - ie Ned - tell me when (the year) the following industries become active in TM - Steel, machinery, glass, cannery, ALiminium, & plastic.

Looking in the supply documentation pdf for TM it looks like:
Steel Plants come into existence in 1856
Machinery/Machine Shop = 1800
Glass = 1800
Aluminium = 1886
Plastic = 1901

Although you'll probably want to look at the supply documentation yourself to see what each industry demands at the time of your scenario.

Also I want to set the scenario so the player can't build industry buildings so has to service those that are there already... any objections?

I'd say go for it. Sometimes it's nice having the challenge of knowing you have to use the industries that are there.

And the rest of the questions you have, I'm not experienced enough to give answers to :)

[Blackhawk]

Now the scenario is going to be this. We start just after the Liverpool and Manchester railway has been completed in 1830 which will be run by an AI (I'd like to make that a highly successful AI if possible but not one that expands.)

I'm not sure if setting the AI to conservative track building will prevent them from expanding, but if you want no expansion from them, couldn't you just create a territory around the area of track you don't want them to expand beyond and then remove their access from that territory so they are constrained to just their initial starting area. Then for making it financially successful I'd use the modifiers to decrease the AI company's costs in things like track and engine maitenance and fuel, while increasing its profits for the cargo it ships.

[Stoker]

Blackhawks' suggestions are mostly good except for the part about increasing the AIs cargo profits. Cargo prices are set globally, and can not be set to affect only one player or territory etc.

[edbangor]

Looking in the supply documentation pdf for TM it looks like:
Steel Plants come into existence in 1856
Machinery/Machine Shop = 1800
Glass = 1800
Aluminium = 1886
Plastic = 1901

Although you'll probably want to look at the supply documentation yourself to see what each industry demands at the time of your scenario.

Erm yes, why didn't I think of that.

I'm not sure if setting the AI to conservative track building will prevent them from expanding, but if you want no expansion from them, couldn't you just create a territory around the area of track you don't want them to expand beyond and then remove their access from that territory so they are constrained to just their initial starting area. Then for making it financially successful I'd use the modifiers to decrease the AI company's costs in things like track and engine maitenance and fuel, while increasing its profits for the cargo it ships.

The first part of that is totally possible if I limit the L&M AI company to just Merseyside(liverpool) and (Greater) Manchester territories as then their won't be anywhere else for them to go.
Using Events though to reduce the AI's running cost though, that I hadn't thought of and by doing so could solve the problem of them having nothing else to haul although, they will, get other cargos by the nature of the game and with the slight over lap of their Warrington Station with that of the human player.

Blackhawks' suggestions are mostly good except for the part about increasing the AIs cargo profits. Cargo prices are set globally, and can not be set to affect only one player or territory etc.

Can't the trigger for them be set to only effect AI players (ie using company ID=), and then, to only effect "those to whom the condition is true" (or whatever the wording is) which I've used before, but never had any real proof that it worked.

Or won't that make any difference?

[Stoker]

Unfortunately the answer is no. The Cargo prices are set globally and can not be set per player or territory, etc- just as I stated. Myself and some other talented scripters have investigated a solution to this, you can find the results in the Scenario Editor section somewhere. On the up side, there are LOTS of ways to make a certain company profitable, up to and including programming in monetary gifts if the company is showing a low profit. The simplest tend to be reducing company overhead, track maintenance , station maint. etc etc.

[nedfumpkin]

Another way to limit the expansion of the AI is to set the price of tracks and stations unreasonably high just for them. They will sop up industries with their profits though.

I'm also curious about the effect of prices on companies because I though you could do that. I do want to pursue this more since I want to use an event set for advertising, which I did in Black Diamond but something made the coal price go crazy I heard, so I am interested in this.

The other thing I want to try in another scenario is to set the prices for freight for the player to less than zero, and the price for passengers for the AI to less than zero so that one company haults passengers and the other freight.

I'll try to do some experiments this weekend.

I am currently working on my own scenario...the same time period, but on different continents. Same Queen too!

Edit...I should mention that there is hockey to be watched these days, so I am working in spurts. :)

[Stoker]

Heres a thread on setting cargo prices and attempts to do it per territory/player etc: viewtopic.php?f=66&t=1541
I recall discussing trying to find a way around this somewhere else as well.

[nedfumpkin]

I'll look into it some more...

But one of the things to take into consideration is that if you raise the price of coal, then industries that use coal will be less profitable since it costs more....so on that nore, setting prices for a company probably doesn't work since industries would have to pay for the different prices. Maybe it could work.

[nedfumpkin]

Oh, something else Ed...

When creating a scenario, you needn't resign as chairman to go to another company and do stuff, hold ctrl and click on the player you want to be and then you'll operating as that character. You can also then go into the company info and set the cash for that company. If you are building an RR, give yourself as much as you need, and when you are done, set the cash to whatever you want it to be.

Something else I am thinking about is, like I mentioned, we are making scenarios in the same time period but in different places, connected by the same queen.

Maybe we should look into the possibility of connecting the two maps, and having them as the first two scenarios. Birth of a Nation is the first campaign, although it starts in 1836...but in your map, in 1836 you could make a mention of the first rr in Canada, and then we could go back and forth referencing each other's maps via actual history, or scenario goals.

Since my map will have ports exporting cargo to England, your map could have the ports importing those same things.

Just some thoughts...might be cool, although it is going to take a bit to finish my map since there's lots to do and hockey starts in half an hour with the Canadians playing the US for the gold medal in women's hockey. ...suffice to say..Go Canada!

[Blackhawk]

I wasn't sure if you could change cargo prices or not in a general area or if its game wide, but you can still give a yearly "bonus" or if their company cash goes into the red, give them money. Maybe a yearly bonus if they haul a certain number of loads. Then when the human player moves into the same city and starts shipping some of the same cargo, the AI player now has less to ship, and reducing or eliminating a haulage bonus would represent the competition the AI now faces. Also depending on how the territories are set up, you may also be able to increase the production of passangers/mail there. Although if the human player then connects to the city he could take advantage of it as well, so you might want to make the production increase only temporary, or end the production if the human player connects to the city, or takes over the AI company.

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=346 Is a decent thread to take a quick look at. Until I read that post I had never thought of destroying all the AI Locomotives every so often to prevent them from being so old they always break down or crash and cost too much to maintain.

[edbangor]

When creating a scenario, you needn't resign as chairman to go to another company and do stuff, hold ctrl and click on the player you want to be and then you'll operating as that character. You can also then go into the company info and set the cash for that company. If you are building an RR, give yourself as much as you need, and when you are done, set the cash to whatever you want it to be.

Thanks Ned, I guessed there had to be an easier way to do it than I was doing it, given how complex some of the set up AI companies have been in other scenarios.

Maybe we should look into the possibility of connecting the two maps, and having them as the first two scenarios. Birth of a Nation is the first campaign, although it starts in 1836...but in your map, in 1836 you could make a mention of the first rr in Canada, and then we could go back and forth referencing each other's maps via actual history, or scenario goals.
Since my map will have ports exporting cargo to England, your map could have the ports importing those same things.
Just some thoughts...might be cool, although it is going to take a bit to finish my map since there's lots to do and hockey starts in half an hour with the

I like this idea and as mentioned somewhere above, I already have the idea to use a Gwizz port, in hollyhead, to act as docks over to Ireland, but, given that Liverpool, and therefore the docks as well which would have shipped to the US and presumably Canada too. I could make this one of the goals especially as the player would have to get control of them from the L&M first before they can shop . The question then would be what are they most likely to be shipping back then. I'll have Wire (goods) from Warrington, Textiles from Manchester, and others.
I'm going to be working on the timeline for my scenario today, by researching history of the cities involved, so if you have some key dates as well that would be great.
the only issue would be that as Steel doesn't turn up on the map until my scenario is around 20 years in I've developed a sub plot to keep the player busy until then, with supplying the Warrington Brewery (or distillery not sure yet) and the pie shops in Wigan. but I don't want the scenario to be "too" hard, especially if it is going to be the first campaign

[edbangor]

Oh dear

Time line research is throwing up some serious issues with history, and the proposed start date.
Although the L&MR opened in Sept 1930 and did naturally connect Liverpool and Manchester, a second line was built during the 1850s which is the one that connected Warrington and then called Cheshire Lines Committee but is now known as the southern route (or on the right on the following page).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_ ... ster_Lines

This means I'm going to need to either do some serious re-thinking about the scenario, and probably shift it forward to that time with, perhaps the AI operating the northern connection and the human the southern, but if I do that, then the map would need to be more close up as there isn't room for both lines on the current one.

The other option would be to do an 'alternative' version of history where the two lines are combined using L&MR history and timeline (which is very rich)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_ ... er_Railway
but giving it the L&MR the route of the southern line. This could be noted in the breifing,
This is the one I prefer, as it's easier.

This would only effect the AI company as the Human would be making their own history anyway.

Fantasy maps are so much easier.....

[edbangor]

Progress with the map has continued today which is why there's another attachment.

I've decided to continue with the idea given above, by following the time line of the L&MR but combining it's route with what would become the southerrn route. So I've set up the L&MR route, which will be run by the AI, and the start of the other route, which will be run by the Human.
I've also painted in the territories, following mostly the county (and country in the case of Wales) lines, but combining some as "the Midlands" or "England" as there were just too many minor counties that won't have anything to do with game play and I'd have run out.
The L&MR railroad will have exclusive access to Merseyside, Manchester and it's own corridor connecting the two, at the start although will eventually have to give up the first two during game play for reasons that will be explained in the next paragraph.

Ned, while I was reasearching things, I picked up the Seaforth Port in Liverpool which was, and is Known as "Canada Docks" for the obvious reasons as that's where the ships sailed too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Dock,_Liverpool
It opened in 1859 and had it's own branch line, but there's not really room to put that in but the time line, thirty years after my map starts may be a touch late, depending on how the map plays. HOw does it work with yours.
Anyway I've added it as a re-named port to my map, for now (I Event place it later) but have left the cargo recipe empty, as a way to export things from my map to yours. Just let me know what you would like?

I've also set up the cargo recipes for the "Pie Shop" in Wigon, and the Warrington Wire Factory, which will have a duel recipe to give it something to do until steel becomes available.

Next I'll work out the regions seeding, so we can have a map that actually plays.

[nedfumpkin]

My advice is to make the map difficult. Campagin scenarios are sorted by date, not difficulty.

I'll take a look at your map, and this weekend I expect to work more on the time line events. As far as historical accuracy, I am working towards the "world events" as having taken place, like when Vicki becomes queen, but at the same time I run into problems like you since I have the Grand Trunk RR, and that didn't begin until the 1850s...and a lot further west.

I'm working towrds historical fiction, and more importantly I am trying to make an interesting scenario that presents a challenge to a skilled user.

I'm not even going to be spawning anything, especially not any industries. I may spawn some logging camps in the north, but they will be in a region where the logs and pulpwood production are reduced and the hides production significantly increasedto represent the fur trade.

I'm also going to be using my seasons events, but not with limited track. Instead seasons will affect the cost of laying track, and the production and prices of certain cargo. Ports will basically close in winter, but have a rush of business in summer.

[nedfumpkin]

Below is a basic timeline of the major events that will be taking place.

1836 Opening of Canada's first railway line, from St. Johns, Québec, to La Prairie, Québec.

- First goal. Must be completed within the first year.

1837 Along with a general feeling that the government was not democratic, the failure of the executive committee to maintain the confidence of the elected officials leads to violent but unsuccessful rebellions in Upper and Lower Canada. The leaders, W.L. Mackenzie (Reformers) and Louis-Joseph Papineau (Patriotes), both escape to the U.S.



1838 As governor general and high commissioner of British North America, Lord Durham arrives to investigate the circumstances behind the Rebellion of 1837.


1839 Lord Durham's report recommends the establishment of responsible government and the union of Upper and Lower Canada to speed the assimilation of French-speaking Canadians.


1841 An Act of Union unites Upper and Lower Canada (Feb. 10) as the Province of Canada.


1848-51 The so-called Great Ministry of Robert Baldwin and Louis-H. Lafontaine outlines the principles of responsible government in the Canadas. The Maritimes are brought into the plan by Howe, then a reform-minded member of the House of Assembly.


1849 The boundary of the 49th Parallel is extended to the Pacific Ocean.


1850 The site of By's headquarters during the construction of the Rideau Canal is incorporated as Bytown.


1851 Britain transfers control of the colonial postal system to Canada.

----post offices will be added and mail production will increase slightly


1852 Laval's Séminaire du Québec founds Université Laval, North America's oldest French Language university.


1852-53 The Grand Trunk Railway receives its charter.


1854 Canada and the U.S. sign a Reciprocity Treaty, ensuring reduction of customs duties (June 6).

----access to the US


1855 Bytown is renamed Ottawa.

----another goal....Montreal must be connected to Ottawa by this date

1856 The Grand Trunk Railway opens its Toronto-Montréal line.

---another goal....by this date the GTR will have to have connected Montreal to Kingston


1857 Queen Victoria designates Ottawa as capital of the Province of Canada.


1860 The cornerstone of the Parliament buildings is laid (Sept. 1).

---legislature will be added on this date. The mint will be added at some point too, but must research date and location.

1864 Originally designed to discuss Maritime union, the Charlottetown Conference (Sept. 1-9) takes the first steps toward Confederation. The Québec Conference (Oct. 10-27) identifies the seventy-two resolutions that set out the basis for union.


1866 The Fenians, a group of radical Irish-Americans organized in New York in 1859 to oppose British presence in Ireland, begin a series of raids on Canadian territory in the hopes of diverting British troops from the homeland. The most serious of these was the Battle of Ridgeway (June 2), which lent a special urgency to the Confederation movement. The London Conference (Dec. 4) passes resolutions which are redrafted as the British North America Act.


1867 Confederation. Britain's North American colonies are united by means of the BNA Act to become the Dominion of Canada (July 1). Sir John A. Macdonald is Canada's first Prime Minister. Ottawa offically becomes capital of the Dominion.

---final goals must be achieved. This means that the GTR must have taken over the Champlain & St. Lawrence RR. Connections across the map also required...haulage goals too.

The map below is pretty much the area covered by this scenario, except it goes further west to Kingston and Lake Ontario which is just off the map.

Another thing is that the St Lawrence was never bridged during the period of the map, so the river is presented as a lake, and without suspension bridges available. Might make a crossing or two, but doubt it, and will most likely keep the map north and south with goals specific in on each side, but the availability of laying unconnected track and accesses to areas determined by events and goals.

Edit the Victoria Bridge was completed in 1859 and that linked Montreal to the south shore...so I will include that.

[edbangor]

There will be some difficulty, but as I've only really planned out the first part of the scenario it's hard to tell what the rest will be like.
The main trouble at the start will come from Warrington bank Quay station becoming a bottle neck as, you can see from the map, there's only one place for the human tracks to cross over the L&MR lines, which is right next to the station, so everything will have to go through the station, especially as I'm placing the industries on either side.
The early goals will be to get the brewery in warrington working and the pies from Wigon so there will be at least six things that all have to pass through at once later once you have access to Yorkshire, you'll be able to build around Manchester however.

I've copied the state date for your railroad into my time line and will mention that during game play along with notes about how the real L&MR line/s developed so that all the true history isn't lost. Of course I couldn't keep to the real history anyway, as there's a lack of Brit charectors in TM, where nearly everyone appears to be Canadian (or an ape) for some reason.

Industries in the North West - where the human player starts - will be placed, but I'll leave them to spawn on the east coast and down in the south where the other AI companies will have free roam.

Don't forget to let me know what you want Liverpools Canada Dock to send you (the docks opened in 1859 if that helps)

I want to work on making the L&MR really hard to take over so am going to set it up with a papermill in warrington (Bank Quay will over lap it as with the brewery) and lumbermill out on the manchester side, or possible another Liverpool docks incoming goods, but may have to widen the mersy for that to work.

Anyway more to work on next week.

[nedfumpkin]

Now thar hockey is over with, I am back to working on my scenario, although I did work on it this weekend in between games.

You can always add players, and if you want anyone in particular, let me know. Same goes for players that were removed. The players that were added were sort of spread out over the world, however, there are a few Canadians specifically for scenarios I am planning. The apes are just fictional characters, I used apes to make it known in case someone wanted to do a scenario that wasn't historical, kinda like the ape scenarios you made. But still, you can always add new players, and I had that in mind.

Anyways...it's taking me a bit of time to make this map since I am trying as much as possible to make it like it was in 1836. I'm researchin all the towns to find out when they were established, and what they had going on. If it was a settlement then it's a dairy farmstead community, other places has flour mills or sawmills, etc. I'm also plotting the mines as best I can.

Then comes the seasons. I'm using a similar set up to what I had in Black Diamonds, but without the almanac. During winter no crops are produced, and the ports are closed. During summer crops are produced in abundance, with a harvest season, and the ports flow with traffic. Hides are only produced in the winter. The price for laying track and building stations in winter is tripled.

The goals are thus...

Connect La Prairie to St. Jean by winter of the first year.

Connect St. Lambert to Odellstown (near Rouses Point) by 1851. Access to the US is 1854.

The map is separated in two by the St. Lawrence River. There is only one place to bridge it, the site of Victoria Bridge in 1859. However, if you haul a load of steel before then you will gain access. (3 years is the window)

The GTR will have to connect Montreal to Kingston by 1856. In order to do this, you will have to have taken over the GTR since it has to be their track that makes the connection.

The GTR will have to absorb the CSL by 1865.

Kingston, Montreal, Quebec, and the points to New York City and Portland Maine will have to be all connected by the end.

Sitll not sure about some other things...but that will be in a nutshell.

Imports are machinery, goods from England and the US, sugar from the Caribean, and coal from Nova Scotia and Pennsylvania.

Exports are meat, grain, hides, and lumber.

I'll probably have haulage goals.

----------------

I'm debating on whether to weave a bit of a tale with Robert Wood, who, being sired by Victoria's father to a french woman, and had a claim to the throne, but for his being born from a Catholic. Imagine that, if a Canadian had been King instead of Victoria....


....oh...and every town will have at least 1 church! How's that for historical accuracy? Back when parts of the area were being settled, oftentimes the first permanent building erected was the freaking church.

[edbangor]

Machinery and Goods will work great as imports (to your map from mine) so I'll add that to the Canada Docks recipe
Not sure which, if any of your exports I'll use, as they're all rather basic but Hides going tothe Manchester mills (well Tannery) would work best in the historic sense anyway.