Japan Quakes

[Hawk]

The following text is a compilation of what was salvaged from the old Gathering Forum. It contains postings from several different people.
Thanks goes out to Wolverine for putting this all together.

Hawk

Japan Quakes
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How do you guys do it? I can get the trains running okay and making me money. But when I try to get at the meat I'm dead. I found a couple of cattle ranches and linked them to a meat packing plant -- a little stretch of track in the middle of nowhere -- figuring I'd link the track to one of my main tracks in to Niigata. But the track wouldn't link. I tried taking it over mountains, between mountains, but it's like a stubborn mule: will go only so far and then no more track laying.
Someone said a day or so ago to work around the track-laying problem. But I couldn't do it. Anyone got a solution? Or just move on to the next scenario?
That new patch better fix this! So much for my calling it a perfect game any longer.
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japan where have you see that? don't remember.. it is not neo-california instead?
have you bought access to the needed territories?
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I do not recall having track problems, but then I only got Bronze.
The things I know that limit track laying are:
- track limit per year - bottom RH corner (??)
- bad terrain, ie the track just will not move forward - redo previous track
- reserved cells
- trying to place the last peice of track in an invalid position
- building in the way - bulldoze or re-route
- laying un-connected track when not allowed
But you probably should have come across the above while moving through the previous scenarios.
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ARRRGHHHH! I CAN'T BELIEVE HOW STUPID I AM!
I think almost all my problems were the yearly track limit. I read the notice at the beginning of the scenario and at the end of each year got the message that I had a new allotment of track -- but I didn't put two-and-two together!
Sorry everyone. Sorry PopTop.
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Reserved cells are placed on the map (in Editor) to stop buildings being placed by the AI. I think they are pink/purple.
Eg. Around a station is a 'T' junction to allow approaches from 3 quarters.
I am not to sure of the actual menu path (can't check, at work).
Envoke the Editor (Shift+E) then under one of the three top left toolbar buttons you will find another button that says 'Reserved Cells'.
Use this button to 'select' reserved cells.
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If it wasn't the track limit, and you have resources in mountains you can't possibly reach and you think its impossible, you always have the option of re-starting the scenario. You will get a new (albeit similar) resource distribution. It is possible you get a complelely unfair starting situation.
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Also, if your ranches are out of reach over a ridge, placing a meat packing plant on the other side will mean that eventually the coobeasties make their own way across the ridge.
I got the meat ok, but had trouble with the clothes target.
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I had a lot of trouble with this scenario, even playing on easy. I started a bunch of maps and finally got a really good industry distribution, with 3 ranches in the north, meat packing at Aizuwakamatsu, the warehouse at Mito with +2 clothes, two (!) ports at Yokosuka with +2 meat each, a port at Choshi with +2 meat, a port at Hamamatsu with +2 clothes, the port at Osaka that converts plastic to clothes, and the port at Toyama that converts produce to cotton. There was a good amount of oil on the map too, with two +1 ports at Yokohama and another +2 from the Mito warehouse.
I avoided all the earthquake disasters by using frequent saves and rollbacks so that I never lost any of my track to earthquakes.
But still almost 1/3 of the way through the scenario I had delivered only 8 loads of clothing, and I couldn't send any more because the price at Niigata for it wasn't high enough. There was only one warehouse at Niigata, so the demand there was 5/year. I think this is basically a play-balance problem. This is the only scenario I can remember where you have to deliver a certain number of loads to a specific city, and it runs into demand problems.
So I cheated.
I popped into the scenario editor, figured out which warehouse was the Niigata warehouse (3rd from the bottom of the list), and plopped two more in Niigata.
That fixed the demand problem.
Later in the game there was some port-growth at Hamamatsu and the place just cranked out clothing, so that I didn't have the supply problem as badly as in other tries. Since I could ship all of this to Niigata due to my induced demand, in the end I had shipped 99 loads of clothing by the time I got to 100 loads of meat.
So I dont know if I can win even on easy without cheating. I think this scenario needs rebalancing, probably putting two warehouses at Niigata in the initial map file is enough. But I dont know if everyone will get that burst of production at Hamamatsu in the last 1/3 of the game -- if not, most people are simply not going to ever get enough loads of clothing created in the first place to win the gold.
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There is a dirty trick how to get gold on Japan Quakes, I suppose that it should work on all other campaigns that require delivery of a specified number of loads. Since I tried to ship as much meat and clothing to Niigata as possible, there was an oversupply of this stuff in the city. Naturally, meat and clothing were loaded on trains going from Niigata. At this point, once the train with meat or clothing leaves Niigata, re-direct it BACK!!! This way you can deliver as much meat and clothing to Niigata as you need.
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If you don't want to cheat on this campaign, remember to haul the goods back out of Niigata anyway. There's a couple of cities nearby where you can haul excess clothes and meat to. Even at 5/year, it can take a while for all the clothes in the city to make their way over to the warehouse. There's a chance some of the goods may make it back to count as a bonus load, but it will likely be les than 25% of the original amount.
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Japan is a difficult one. I don't know how to earn the gold with fair play, but silver can be done.
I try to increase demand in Niigata by hauling anything from and to this place. By pumping people and goods in and out you create a bloodstream which causes the place to grow. Bigger city means more demand...
And of course, reserve the meat and clothes for Niigata by keeping trains waiting for the stuff. You can make enough money in this scenario (oil!), so don't bother about loosing some coins on the waiting train.
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wrote: How do you guys do it?
Many of the scenarios have a trick, and this one is one of the trickier.
First, I set up trains running Express cargo on the existing track to generate revenue in a standard hub arrangement.
Second, I did not set up any Freight trains to prevent the meat/clothing from going where I did not want it.
Third, at each warehouse that generated meat/cloths, I set up a cargo train to take only that cargo to Niigata and to wait for at least 3 loads before going. This assures that all meat/cloths goes onto the train instead of wandering away before a train gets there.

Finally, the trick... I bulldozed homes near the warehouses to drive demand for meat/cloths down near the warehouse and create a profit for hauling them. Once I figured out this trick, I was able to rapidly move the cargo to score Gold.
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I finally beat this hateful scenario by simply building a track completely encircling Niigata, and putting 4 stations at cardinal points on the circle. I found that this resulted in price differentials among the 4 stations, and set one train to running just on the circle, stopping at each of the 4 stations. Thereafter, whenever a load of meat reached Niigata, it was often counted more than once as it moved from station to station around the city. A nasty trick, but it saved me from depression.
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wrote: this hateful scenario (...) it saved me from depression.
Hmmm... Just trying to get all the medals or enjoying the game?
I try to see the challenge in every scenario - some are not that nice (like Japan), but I always remember why I'm playing: fun.
BTW: saw some interesting ideas how to be more successful in this scenario. Thanks everyone. Edit: I just made it - gold. Pretty easy if you ship meat away from the place (sometimes even moving the stuff between two places far apart!).
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A good point. I guess I should have added a smilie or two to lessen the impact of those words "hateful" and "depression."
In truth, I have been enjoying the heck out of this game, and all the challenges therein. But I have to say this particular scenario knocked me about a bit and tested my sanity. I was going along great guns in the Campaign, thinking I had acquired some small degree of mastery of the game, and then Wham! During the first 5 or 6 tries, I was exulting in the challenge. By the 10th try, I was getting a bit steamed. By the 15th, the fun factor was, well, sort of strained, to put it mildly. One thing, though - I got a good and thorough lesson in humility!
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If you think that's hard, try K's Grand Bank map. A major cause of insomnia!
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Why does the June 16th earthquake happen May 1st?
To fix this and get the quake to happen on June 15th I thought up a little change. As close to June 16th as I can get.
1. Change the event that does the first quake. I think it is 'a-Niigata tremors.' to game year-month = 196406. Schedule to trigger at the beginning of the week. Add also another condition ' AND territory variable 3 = 3.'
2. Add another event right before the above one. Schedule this event for beginning of a week. Condition of game year-month = (196406) AND force test against territories. Select Niigata as the territory. The Effect should be Territory variable 3 +1.
Hopefully territory var 3 is not used for anything else. I didn't check too closely.
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There never seems to be any demand for meat and clothes in Niigata! I have stations with meat and clothes but the warehouse demand in Niigata does not match the 10-5 listed for annual demand. Did the quake wreck the demand? Have I missed something?
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I am having a similar problem with the Pennsylvania map. I have a distillery in Baltimore, there isn't any other alchohol source anywhere close. I notice this and buy/upgrade the distillery. There are a bunch of produce farms, outside of Gettysburg and Frederick. There is a 20-30 dollar positive price difference for produce in Baltimore compared with Gettysburg or Frederick. There is no produce stockpiled in Baltimore. The price for alcohol there is very high, so the distillery should be pumping out the booze and making me money right? Wrong. I'm loosing money on it, and although there is a decent price difference, when I look in the details for the gettysburg or frederick staions they say Produce: Baltimore +$22 demand 0.0

Why on earth is there no demand for produce? There is no sugar anywhere on the map. The produce is just sitting there, but it refuses to get on my trains. The distillery isn't producing anything, or very little despite the high local and regional demand. At first produce loaded as I would expect, but then it just stopped, and has not resumed after several years. What gives?
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Sometimes it take a while every year till the demand comes up, the system is very slow.
May be there a little bug with the demand -> production model, as it is with the recycling plant. I found this in the Hollandis scenario.
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Actually production at the distillery did seem to get to normal, but it was only after many years, like 6 or 7. That was frustration and unexplained. My company could have used the revunue for those year, and I had good trains running from supply to demand , both of which were owned by me.
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I can't find any cotton to make the clothes. Is there a way I can Import more cotton?
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wrote: There never seems to be any demand for meat and clothes in Niigata! I have stations with meat and clothes but the warehouse demand in Niigata does not match the 10-5 listed for annual demand. Did the quake wreck the demand? Have I missed something?
I had similar problems and I didn't think that I would get the gold on this one (but I did ). Once I had the routes set up, I used custom consist with a minimum load count to sit at the stations with clothing or meat. Once the price raised in Niigata rose slightly it would load these goods on the train. I added quite a few of these and they were all big money loosers but at least I got the cargo moved.
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But where did you get the cotton and the livestock to produce the clothes and the meat? Maybe I just have a bad map, but I have hauled almost every load of meat that the game produced, and I am not even close.
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The only cotton on my board came from a port (I can't remember where) and it was very minimal. Most of my clothes and meat came from ports as well. You may have a bad board, but make sure you look closely at each port on the board as they differ in what they supply. Then make sure that your station is set to capture that port so your products don't drift.
Also, try to avoid shipping these items to anywhere accept Niigata. By having the trains waiting there, you can ussually capture it as it arrives.
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I was wondering if Any of you had trouble with Japan Quakes? I am having troubles hauling the 100 loads of meat, and the 50 loads of clothing. In my first try, there wasn't any cotton or livestock to supply my meatpacking plant, or my textile mills. the ports didn't have any either.
In my second try, I was doing ok until later in the game the prices went down where I was hauling to, and up where I was hauling from. The trains wouldn't haul my cargo because it wasn't profitable.
I guess will try one more time.
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Well I finally got it, but I basically cheated. I had no problems getting the 50 loads of clothes delivered, but there was no way I was going to get the 100 loads of meat. There just wasn't that much to be found. What I did was have a train wait at a station next to a port that supplied meat. The price at the port was about the same as where I wanted to deliver it so the train wouldn't take any. But for a split second, the price difference was enough for the train to load a few loads of meat and than it would just sit there saying, (meat not profitable to haul) I then sent the train to where I wanted it to go and it unloaded the meat and headed back. I paused the game and had the train turn around and pick up the meat , and changed the route to somewhere it would deliver it. The train took off with the meat and I would stop it again and change the route again. The train would go back and drop off that same load of meat and reload it. I think I dropped that same load off 5 times before I got the 100 loads.
I was wondering if any of you had this same problem in this scenario, or did I just get a bad map. Or maybe it's a bug?
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Yes, it is hard to keep the demand for meat and clothes up at Niigata (or how it's spelled). I basicly had a direct train from any port that gave me meat or clothes, and when there became a price difference the meat or clothes usually got on the train. There is also a meat packing plant in the town next to Niigata and a few livestock farms around it.
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I used the meat packing plant you talk about but the problem was there were only to cattle ranches to supply it. I tried hauling fertilizer to a grain feild, then grain to the ranches to help the production, but I ran into the same problems doing that.
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Look at your industry chart. I am pretty sure that cows don't want grain in RTT3, they want corn now
I've seen your post elsewhere about this campaign. It was one of the more difficult campaigns for me as well. Initially, I thought that it was similar to Argentina where you had to haul goods anywhere. Then I realized it was just to Niigata and had to really change my strategy. I basically did the same thing as Besterik, by having trains waiting for the price drop to be able to ship the items.
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Your right. They want corn. No wonder it didn't help.
I did the same as you guys did. I had trains waiting for meat and clothes the very first year. It just wasn't going to be enough though. I think I just got a bad map.
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I did pretty much the same thing as everyone else. From turn 1 had train sitting to grab meat or clothes and run them to Nagiita (sp?) Fell short by 2 loads of meat
I think you have to play a bit cheesy to keep the demand high; this may have been built in. Since you're trying to meet a gov't set quota, I don't think it matters much what you do to meet it
Next time I add a train whose sole purpose is to haul meat AWAY from Nagiita!
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I have just started the map but I think the last post has the correct idea. If you don't carry away the meat the demand will drop until all meat is consumed. So drop your meat and cloths in Niigata and then ship it to another city. That's what I am going to try.
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Something that will help is trains hauling clothes and meat away from Niigata. Try setting up 2 trains just like your meat haulers at the ports; takes a lot of attn and goofing around because you have to keep checking the trains to give them somewhere to go.
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Warning: Some might consider this post a spoiler, I used the map editor to examine the scenario. I dont think there's any info here you couldn't get by spending a lot of time poking around on the map.
Niigata has a warehouse that demands 10 meat and 5 clothing.
There's one already plopped in the map file, so you always get one there.
Has anyone gotten two warehouses in Niigata? That would solve the
problem of not being able to haul meat or clothing there. It should be possible, but because the game reduces the chances for an industry once there's one in the town, it should be not uncommon.
Clothing is the main pain, because there are no cotton farms, ever.
You can get clothing at ports in Mito (1/year) and Hamamatsu(2/year).
Without these ports I think you'll have a hard time getting enough.

You can also convert plastic to clothing at Osake. Must be that modern stuff made from recycled plastic bottles. To get the plastic you need oil, which must be imported. Yokohama and Mito can supply oil.
You can also get cotton using a pair of wierd conversions. Toyama will convert Produce to Cotton, but that doesn't work too well because the townspeople eat the fruit you drop off! Hamamatsu converts Autos to cotton, go figure. The port at Hitachi will convert Rice to cotton, except there's no rice anywhere! That's just really wrong. There are plenty of places with textile mills to make clothing once you have cotton.
I think this scenario was either hastily put together (they sure didn't spend a lot of time when they laid the initial track, there's whoop-de-doo's all over the place). Either that or they tweaked it for 1.3 in some minimal ways. I say this because there's a definition for a port at Kanazawa, but Kanazawa has a 0% chance of ever having a port. So that's useless, sort of like the Rice-Cotton rule at Hitachi.
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Anyone else have this problem? I'll drag the cursor along, laying the track and it suddenly won't go any further. Nothing blocking it, no problems with water, no buildings in the way ... it just won't go any farther. I had two pieces of track that I wanted to bring together, again nothing in the way, but it just wouldn't go.
Any thoughts?
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Yep, I've had this occur quite often, it could be that there are reserved cells that cause the block. I find the only way past is to lay in short lengths & work round it.
Thank goodness for the undo button.
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In Japan Quakes you have a limited amount of track. The number of "pieces" left is shown when you're laying track (I forget where on the screen). As you stretch a piece (but haven't laid it yet) the number gets updated to show the number of pieces remaining assuming you lay the piece you have stretched out.
When you hit zero you get exactly the behavior you described, you just cant stretch any further, even through completely open terrain. You just dont have the track to do it.
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the track ... suddenly won't go any further
you have a limited amount of track
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Yes you're right! See my thread "I give up on Japan Quakes". I just figured it out about ten minutes ago.
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Anybody else noticed the lack of cotton (and subsequent lack of clothing) on the Japan Quakes level, i took four goes at it, and finally got the bronze, but was miles of getting silver due to the distinct lack of cotton farms. As anybody else managed to get the required amount of clothing to the Fiijgitiusatumanutu or whatever it is called? if so, how?
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Clothes from harbors, not cotton from farms.
use the trick of selling the same stuff twice to the Niigata customers...
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pm me ur link for naked japanese people! -pass protected area?
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That scenario was the hardest one in the campaign for me. Its not easy on easy!
You should restart it a number of times before playing. Start each game, but before any time elapses, save it and look around. Check out all the sources of cotton and clothing that generate (mostly ports & warehouses) Then play the saved game with the best starting position. If you think its ok, you can go into the scenario editor and find out where all the ports & warehouses might be and what they generate.
If you get a good enough initial map you can generate enough clothing to win the scenario. The problem you run into then is a lack of demand for it at Niigata, where you need to send it. There's nothing more frustrating in any scenario than having to ship clothing to Niigata to win when Niigata take it. If you can get a start with 2 warehouses at Niigata you'll have an easier time, but I've never seen that happen.
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Clothing and meat almost take care of themselves once you set up for it. At each port that has clothing or meat have trains waiting for just those cargoes; keeping demand in the target city can be harder but if you dedicate a train to hauling the stuff away things should work. It takes micromanagement, but it does work.
A somewhat lazy but workable method is to keep track of the trains hauling the stuff in; as soon as they hit the city see if they can haul away either of the required goods to somewhere else-if its on the way back to the port so much the better.
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wrote: keeping demand in the target city can be harder but if you dedicate a train to hauling the stuff away things should work.
In scenarios with such target cities, I set up the target city as a hub, for the entire map, if you like. Victory cargoes start in their source cities with the cargoes specified. The second stop is the target city, which can turn around with general cargo and depart full or empty. After that the train comes back to the source by way of several intervening cities, preferably that also demand the cargo. On the entire trip back, the train is allowed to proceed emptyor with general cargo, so it can return to the source city in good time.
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like da guy said ports man not cotton farms .
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I read some other comments about this scenario. But noone mentioned the bug I was suffering from. The scenario only acknowledged my Niigata station when delivering goods. But regarding my network connectivity it got ignored.
Only Silver on hard
How many quakes did you experience? I had only 2.
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I had 4 quakes.
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After the initial two quakes, that was it. There wasn't a single quake for the rest of the scenario.
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Same for me.
Quote:
But regarding my network connectivity it got ignored.
Could you please elaborate on that? What goes wrong?
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Quote: But regarding my network connectivity it got ignored.
Could you please elaborate on that? What goes wrong?
The ledger told me that Niigata was unvollständig verbunden (engl. incompletely connected) . The goods delivered to Niigata were counted correctly. I was playing with patch 1.04 and German version of the scenario, unlike the others. who commented on this scenario.
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I have the German version and 1.04b too, it worked for me.
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wrote: I read some other comments about this scenario. But noone mentioned the bug I was suffering from. The scenario only acknowledged my Niigata station when delivering goods. But regarding my network connectivity it got ignored.
Only Silver on hard
How many quakes did you experience? I had only 2.


I may have found the solution to your problem. I experienced something very similar to what you've described, I had interrupted service even though all my tracks are connected, I found out later that although I build my station very close to the city, it's not connected despite the game is counting the cargos trains deliver to Niigata station, so make sure the station is connected to the city.
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Sure its easy to win by sending meat and clothing right back Niigata, but how to win without resorting to cheesy tactics.
Trying to get more clothing going.
So Toyama has a port which can produce 4 cotton which I should be able to produce 4 clothing with. If only the 4-8 produce I have sent there to be converted to cotton would be converted!
The best I can do is get about 2 cotton/year out of the possible 4(if I'm lucky) , in my map I can send heaps of Produce easily to Toyama, just it doesn't seem to get converted properly.
Anyone have any ideas how to make the port produce the 4 cotton it should?
I'm running 1.03 , could it be a bug?
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If you leave a train permanently waiting for cotton, the port will produce
The problem for me in this map is that rare good get somsumed/transported to places where I don't want. So I had to resort to lots of trains waiting forever in ports to minimize this effect
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Toyama could be a victim of the halved production that Mobius is talking about.
http://www.gathering.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22879
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Further analysis on this scenario
Using an idea posted elsewhereI constructed a double track circle with 4 large stations all covering Niigata(and that warehouse)- this led to gold-hard in 1981 with 100 clothing and 101 meat(I didn't pay that much attention to the meat considering clothing the most important)
The interesting thing was however that I was able to keep a total of ~>10 units each of meat and clothing continuosly in the 4 stations(total) but still that warehouse would only consume a fraction of the 15 promised(10meat and 5 clothing) the best consumption/year was 6.6 total. I wonder if the warehouse suffers from the same ailment that ports do( for ones which have multiple input/outputs)?
BTW the cotton port production is not needed, in fact using only the primary sources I still had trouble keeping the price in Niigata high enough to send to it. For this reason I think the scenario is basically flawed, though perhaps it played correctly in version 1.00. I assume one primary object is supposedly for the player to get at least one of the secondary production chains especially for clothing up and running.
Does anyone know if this scenario was easier to play in 1.00 rather than 1.03? Or played differently?
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Hey all,
I'm (still!) using whatever version came out of the box (I wanted to finish all the campaigns & scenarios before I upgraded). The problem is basically the same in my earlier version. I was able to get gold, but it was a nailbiter right to the end. I think the chain is produce-cotton-clothing-final delivery, yes? It was getting produce to exchange for cotton that was so hard...
So, no I don't think this is a product of later versions.
I remember liking this map, though...it was a challenge. I, for one, think that if I can get gold on hard(campaigns) or expert (scenarios) on the first run-through, then it wasn't hard enough, and I didn't get my money's worth.
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For every port or warehouse you program, there is one of the other (port or warehouse) that will be programed exactly the same and act the same. (12 sets)
When you set the maximun yearly produced at a port in the editor, I believe it applies to the total of all cargos produced at that port. If the port is set in the editor to produce a maximun of 4 loads per year, then that will be the total that the port can produce no matter how many cargos are delivered to the port to produce other cargos.
I believe you can deliver too much cargo to a port and the port will store the extra cargo for the next year and production will take place the next year without more deliveries. Cargo can be hauled away by wagons, so the cargo could be gone by the time you check it.
I often preplant one port and let the city build another type of port.
Doing this, I can reduce production to one or 2 types of cargo at each port. Of course the maximun production of a port can be increased to equal or be greater than the total of all individual productions.
I seem to remember that when a port doubles itself (upgrades) all cargo quanities (production) are increased by 50%. Not sure on this point.
There does seem to be some random at times in a port or warehouse production. But, this may be caused more to the timing of the end of a years tally of production and not random at all.
Of course this is all available in Casper's Game rules for RRT3.
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you are right about the max production, however the problem of reduced output still appears well below this limit.
I beleive it is very similar too or the same bug as for multiple inputs to other industries. The problem only manifests itself when there are more than 1 'swapped' cargo at a port irrespective of what it produces on an annual basis. I first noticed this problem with v1.0 when I first played the France scenario which had a shortage of iron on the map. You could only get extra iron by delivering cheese or plastic or something. I also posted a thread at the time...anyway I couldnt get the extra iron as there was always < 0.5 at the port station due to the low production.
So...I made a quick test map and put 2 port types, each producing 2 cargoes and each also swapping the output of port A for the input of port B and vice versa. I also set a high production limit eg 12. I set 3 as the annual output for the 2 cargo types each port produced without inputs. This leaves 6 slots available for swapped production on average.
I setup a train between both ports and watched what happened over a period of 5 or 6 years. You get very little 'swapped' cargo. If the port only has 1 swaped cargo all is OK. So for me this always has been, is still and probably will continue to be a simple BUG.
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I also did my own trial
I modified the Japan trembles and played it as a scenario on expert(is this the same as campaign hard?)
I split the warehouses in Niigata one for clothing(5needed) and meat(10)
I was concerned that the warelouses weren't consuming as they should because if split needs,
The result was that both warehouses never consumed more than 50% that they asked for/year. So back to the drawing board on that theory!.
I also made the Toyama port produce only cotton for produce(max 4)[eliminated the second chain], Well this kind of stuffed up as it upgraded to max(! and cloned a second port with the same characteristics! the result was heaps of cotton for the textile mill in Nagoya. That mill produced its max output(4) most years. I'm not sure I proved anything though.
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I'm playing Japan at the moment, too.
my biggest problem is not the strategy, but some general....I'd call it a general setting problem (read more of this over at Heineken & Pacific's Forum, see 'testing going on'
It's the price level of the products...i know it's different in each case...
I have meat somewhere in the south, Toyama, or whatever....the only source of big quantities of meat. BUT: I can't haul it to Niigata, because, there's exactly the SAME PRICE LEVEL, and the AI does not allow the haul...

that's a problem in some othere cases too....e.g. steel mill (let's say it's the only one on the map): 2 different raw materials, one supplied sufficient, the other can't be hauled to this city, because it's the same price level
Anybody thought of a solution to this problem? Let's find a solution between the old, easy & convinient system of RT2 and the new, realistic, excellent made system in RT3!
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wrote: It's the price level of the products...i know it's different in each case...
I have meat somewhere in the south, Toyama, or whatever....the only source of big quantities of meat. BUT: I can't haul it to Niigata, because, there's exactly the SAME PRICE LEVEL, and the AI does not allow the haul...
that's a problem in some othere cases too....e.g. steel mill (let's say it's the only one on the map): 2 different raw materials, one supplied sufficient, the other can't be hauled to this city, because it's the same price level
Check here:
http://www.gathering.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22912
or here
http://www.exdx.net/RT3/page17.html
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wrote: I can't haul it to Niigata, because, there's exactly the SAME PRICE LEVEL, and the AI does not allow the haul...
Haul meat and clothing from Niigata to the other cities. If you can keep down the amount present near your Niigata station, you can keep the prices up. A strategy that I use for load haul missions is to haul from everywhere to the destination and from the destination to everywhere. I make that city the hub for my whole railroad.
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I think Fook is a cereal .
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Final thoughts on Japan Trembles strategy.
Having replayed and dissected this one I guess its the hardest of the campaigns IMHO. So I thought I'd record my musings about it and see if anyone had further thoughts to add.
Japan Trembles.
#1.The huge problem is to keep the price differential for clothing and meat between several supply options and the delivery place(Niigata)so trains will continue to be able to deliver these goods.
#2.A smaller problem is ensuring an adequate supply of these goods(assuming a price differential exists), ->not really a problem with custom consist trains. Make sure the supply towns send their clothing and meat only to Niigata(or Niigata loop-seebelow)
#3.Keeping alive and making money is no problem at all, there are heaps of express only options and profitable industry.
So my musings really only relate to #1- the big problem.
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Continued-analysis.
Possible options to affect price differentials.
1.Raise price at supply target(Niigata)
2.Lower price at supplier (eg. Hanamatsu for clothing).
Variations I considered
1. Small vs large stations
2. Stations close or far from source or target
3.Multiple stations
4.Waiting trains-both at source or target
5.Multiple consist trains away/back to source
Analysis-- PLease comment if you don't agree
1. IMHO it seems the station size affects several things
-Averages the price over the station area(so small station averages over smaller area)
-power of attraction- large stations attract goods better than small ones
-large stations because they attract goods more are not as good at SENDING goods away to be consumed eg. by warehouse at Niigata(not sure about this just a feeling).
2.If you want to attract goods the best is to put your large station as close to source as possible, eg rearrange Hanamatsu to do this.
3.Multiple stations( at one town). This gets a bit tricky , it seems to me that they just average over the goods present in their own area, that is they will record duplicate goods that in reality arn't really there if two stations overlap. However placing a small station close on either side that warehouse yielded the best consumption by that warehouse!.( to about 70% of theoretical max.) presumably because both samll stations sent stuff to the warehouse.
4. Waiting trains. Keeping a train waiting at source to capture all available goods seems a good idea, unfortunately once loaded these goods are not counted towards keeping the price low at source so the exercise is self defeating as the price quickly soars if you say want a max load of 8 before departure. Imho, I think at most 1 or 2 forced loads before departure and allow supply to build up to force down price before the train(or duplicates) return.
5.The last point concerns taking the goods away from the source as quickly as they arrive so the price is not forced down by excess unconsumed goods. Of course if you can then redeliver these(legitimately without turning round the train ), then victory is much closer.
So in summary my best effort was 2 small stations close on either side of the warehouse at Niigata with a joining line to a station just beyond the Niigata city bounds and then joined to the rest of the network.
Dedicated trains to these 3 stations to keep the goods cycling between these and not allowing any meat/clothing to go beyond this Niigata loop system. I also mooved the station at Hanamatsu closer to the port by demolishing house/factories to improve capture by that station. Ran 2 dedicated consist trains (without forced loads) to Niigata from each supply town and isolated these town with regards to general cargo trains
Victory-gold-hard jan 1979.
I've tried to keep it brief but its quite a wordy post, I can elaborate if asked
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one thing- stations use the price at the cell they are on, not an average of the area.
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At the beginning:
1. Buy existing cattleyards. They are cheap and you don't want them to disappear. Make sure there is a meatpacker nearby.
2. Place stations wherever you already have track.
3. Run the two existing locos auto consist between the cities on relatively flat ground, Gifu to Utunomiya.
4. Buy an E18 or two to take produce to Toyama, and cotton back to some textile mills.
After the Niigata quake:
5. Re-establish connection asap and get the relief trains rolling.
6. Buy E18, as many as you can. They are real cheap, and perform well at everything except fuel economy. There will be no better loco for quite a while. Ship from each city to Niigata and home again, autoconsist 5/5 to, 0/5 from.
Midgame:
7. Keep on hand enough track to make repairs after random quakes. You need a little over 100. 120?
8. Connect to Nagaoka. Since this city's loco has such a short run, you can give it a little loop to do in Niigata territory.
9. Keep an eye open for new cattleyards and buy them so they are not lost.
10. Gradually connect to more and more cities, especially those that supply meat or clothing. But any city is good because it can take away clothing and meat from Niigata.
11. When it is available buy the 6E for its hill climbing ability. 5/6 to, 0/6 from Niigata. Depending on the city you will want two or three trains going to Niigata.
12. Gradually double track from Niigata to Tokyo, being sure enough is held in reserve for quakes.
13. Run passenger (Shinkansen) and mail (VL80T) on the flats so that it doesn't all have to go to Niigata to get to its destination.
With lucky seeding, but making a couple of mistakes, I earned gold hard in April 1977. With bad seeding (I had to build a meat packer), better play I earned gold hard in July 1978. The only custom consist was produce to Toyama.
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Interesting, do you think that the critical strategy is getting the goods AWAY from Niigata. ?
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Both to and from; they are both important. I seem to do best when I have fewer trains that do not have Niigata on the itinerary. That makes it so that any clothes or meat that go by train go to or have been to Niigata, nothing goes sideways. Everybody gets fed and clothed, but only after Niigata. Maybe I'll do a test where all freight goes to Niigata, while I set up something different (hub & spoke?) for express. Niigata gets pretty crowded so there is no point in sending all the mail and passengers there.
Part of my thinking in sending everything to Niigata was to see if I could build the city up faster, making more houses to consume meat and clothing, but the impact seems to be minor.
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I've read somewhere else making a better hub to raise consumption is the way to go, but that warehouse consumes 10 meat/5 clothing whilst a house is only 0.02 or similar so you need 50 houses to get 1 full consumption so that warehouse equals 250 houses for clothing, ....or am I missing something here?

[Elliott]

Sorry for digging up an old topic, but I'd thought I'd give my views on this scenario after having read through this topic and had several goes myself.

I initially had much difficulty with this scenario, but once you realise not to build any track until the first earthquake has occurred, I didn't really find it that challenging! Albeit I was playing on medium, but I finished it on gold in 11 years, nearly half the 21 years available...

Basically, I used the ports supplying meat and clothes to their fullest extent, also taking advantage of the livestock in the north-east of the map, and the produce to cotton change in the north-west, but not to any of the same extent as the use of the ports. I suppose I cheated really, but first time I did it I did it accidentally and figured it was only fair given the unbalanced nature of the scenario whereby Niigata doesn't have the demand required. I did this by taking the meat and clothing to other stations and then redirecting it to Niigata before it reached whatever other city it was.

Cheating? maybe? But the game allows you to do it, so why not eh!

Many said this was the hardest scenario of the campaign. I'm sorry but this has nothing on Orient Express!

[Hawk]

Sorry for digging up an old topic,

That's what they're here for.
There isn't the problem here of replying to old posts as there is at other forums. We don't mind a bit.

[Lockhouse49]

Many have commented on the difficulty of propping up the demand in Niigata. I wondered what might happen if demand in Niigata was ignored entirely. What would be the outcome if the goals of the scenario were viewed as a humanitarian mission and the necessary meat and clothing were delivered without profit? The short answer is that the scenario goals were reached in the 15th year on the hard level the first time I tried it.

The long answer is more complicated. As everyone knows, trains won’t load for a destination that has no demand. Instead, I set the destination for a city which had demand. Once the train pulled away from the loading station, the destination was changed to Niigata. When the train arrived in Niigata its cargo was unloaded, stacked in the warehouse and counted toward the victory conditions.

This is just a different trick to achieve the scenario goals. I liked it because: a) I didn’t have to take the same cargo to Niigata multiple times; and b) there was something appealing about removing the profit motive in helping the struggling people of Niigata get back on their feet.

While this approach has its advantages, it also has its drawbacks. It requires a significant amount of micro-management of the train listing. As others have pointed out, dedicated trains are useful in this scenario. I used two dedicated trains for hauling meat – one at the port Yokosuka and one wherever the meat packing plant appeared, which was usually Fukushima but sometimes Aizuwakamatsu. I also used two dedicated trains for clothing – one from the port Hamamatsu and one from the warehouse at Mito.

Loading the trains is where the tedious micro-management occurs. For example, when the train at Hamamatsu began to load, demand for clothing existed in, say, Oyama. I would set the train destination for there. After a car or two of clothing had been on-loaded, but before the train was full, Oyama stopped accepting clothing – and the train stopped loading cargo. The destination had to be changed to another city. Often, this had to be done multiple times before the train was loaded. And, of course, once the train was full and rolled out of the station, the destination had to be changed again to Niigata. I spent a lot of the game with the train listing on the screen – far more than any other scenario.

And if that were not enough, there were periods in the game where not one city on the map – even the unconnected ones – demanded clothing. The clothing just piled up in the port and warehouse. However, when demand was re-established there was plenty of cargo to take to Niigata. I never encountered this issue with meat – there was always someplace in Japan that wanted it.

Understandably, it cuts across the grain of a tycoon to forego a profit. There is, after all, something very pleasing about the sound of those coins filling the coffer. However, since this scenario has no CBV or PNW requirements, making money is secondary to delivering the goods. One only needs to make enough money to keep both the trains rolling and the board of directors quiet. There are other places on this map besides Niigata where this can be done.
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Some random notes on this scenario:

What do others think of the Shinkansen Series 0 engine? My experience has been that it invariably crashes before it is ten years old. I had one crash in only its second year – and that’s with a two-car-plus-caboose consist!!

The uranium at Hitachi provides a nice mid-game income boost.

I agree with the person who said the cotton train from Toyama isn’t necessary. However, using it probably knocks two years off the game for me.

About every fifth time I have played this scenario, an earthquake wipes out the station in Niigata. Toyoma has also occasionally succumbed to quakes. Otherwise, the quakes occur where I haven’t built any track or stations, so they aren’t too troubling.

[RulerofRails]

That's a great first post. Lots of details and a good explanation of the strategy you used. And, Welcome to the forum!

The first time I played this one I also used the trick of diverting trains headed somewhere else to Niigata. I like the story about "humanitarian aid" you wrote. It's great if you enjoy this method. Maybe you should try Trainmaster, the RT3 mod with much more complex production chains that require more micro-management even though it has the 1.06 feature that enables trains to load unprofitable cargo.

What do others think of the Shinkansen Series 0 engine? My experience has been that it invariably crashes before it is ten years old. I had one crash in only its second year – and that’s with a two-car-plus-caboose consist!!

Hauling only express with a caboose it's fine. Reliability is affected by car weight. Freight cars weigh 48% (13/27) more.

I agree with the person who said the cotton train from Toyama isn’t necessary. However, using it probably knocks two years off the game for me.

Did you have a Textile Mill in Toyama, or surrounding cities at game start? If you need to build one, it will take two years or so to get price up enough for much production to occur. This conversion isn't profitable, the price of Produce is higher than that of Cotton. Unless many Produce deliveries swamp the demand there, I'll be surprised if this port hits full production.

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This map can be won without any micro-management and only one station in the Niigata hidden territory. I agree with previous posts that point out Niigata's weak demand. Also, the solution of hauling the cargo away is what I do. Strategies good for this one:


Grow the ports that supply Clothing and Meat.
Deliver the cargoes that ports consume whether they convert it as in the Produce->Fertilizer at Hamamatsu or just consume as in the Alcohol demand at Yokosuka and Choshi. After about 5 years of consistent supply, the port will probably upgrade doubling production limits. NOTE: Only target ports that have profitable conversions. Price of output cargo must be at least 10% HIGHER than that of the input. The conversions that produce Cotton are unprofitable, they may still grow but it will be more effort.


Build Hotels and Post Offices.
Hotels thrive on passenger volume. Dense cities and high-speed Shinkansen service ensure that volume is high. Post Offices good for the high mail volume. Each well-utilized Shinkansen can earn over $400k per year. Only a couple are needed. NOTE: Restaurants and Taverns are less profitable, but still provide decent income.


Control the price map. (advanced)
Most imbalances in price are caused by train deliveries and the effect that stations frequented by trains radiate into their surrounding areas. By restricting the flow of freight in general or of only Clothing and Meat, desirable price differentials can be maintained.

For example, trains north of Utsunomiya/Hitachi may not deliver freight to the south (exception: trains returning from Niigata). This is intended for when a Meat Packing Plant is located in Fukushima. If trains are allowed to haul any freight south, Meat demand in Fukushima and Koriyama will end up higher than Niigata. Restricting the flow keeps the price in these cities lower (think of it as less market exposure). Meat will have a consistent desire to head towards Niigata (assuming local demand there is currently moderate or better) throughout the game.

Another example, trains arriving at the ports are unrestricted, any cargo is allowed in, but only some cargoes are allowed to leave. At Yokosuka, Meat and Alcohol are not allowed to leave. This is accomplished in a round-about way using the custom consist feature with express and freight cars of any type EXCEPT Meat and Alcohol. Fertilizer and Tires are likely candidates to add to the custom consist in this way.


Avoid price islands at Niigata's station cell. (advanced, somewhat theoretical)
Price islands form when a train on an established route makes a haul to a destination, but the price at the destination drops (infrequently if it rises) during transit. Upon arrival, the game equalizes the prices between the stations. If there is a large change during transit time, the source station's cell will appear a different color from the other surrounding cells. Price islands eventually unwind after a time delay. I approximate this at 9-12 months.

Tips to avoid them:
The destination for the hauls that depart Niigata need to be places like Oyama which have a good background demand influence (un-challenging local geographical features allowing nearby to cities lighter-green demand radii to surround it) that will ensure quick price recovery should price fall at all. In addition, such a city should have frequent service to major demands giving cargo many options to leave as soon as price starts to fall. In this case: Tokyo, Yokohama, Chiba, and Mito Hauling straight to Tokyo isn't as good because price there is at highest level. In order for the cargo to be hauled away, price MUST fall first.


In conclusion, those are the types of play decisions and economic management techniques that I currently enjoy. But really just a different way to do the same thing.

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PopTop had some good artists. Did you see any of the whales?

Whales.jpg (5.49 KiB) Viewed 8638 times

Or ships?

Ship.jpg (9.94 KiB) Viewed 8638 times

[Lockhouse49]

That's a great first post. Lots of details and a good explanation of the strategy you used. And, Welcome to the forum!

Thanks -- I wore my copy of RRT1 out many years ago. Purchased 2 when it came out but never quite got the hang of it. Recently saw the package offered by Steam and said, "What the heck?" So I am tycooning again. I started with 2, but moved onto 3 and haven't looked back. I really enjoy attempting to master the economy in RRT3. Maybe once I have earned gold on every map at the hardest level, I will take another swing at 2 -- but I have a hunch I will be downloading user maps before that happens!

As I was having some trouble understanding the demand flow, I started looking around and found this website. It's a great resource for learning about and appreciating the complexities of the game.

Did you have a Textile Mill in Toyama, or surrounding cities at game start? If you need to build one, it will take two years or so to get price up enough for much production to occur. This conversion isn't profitable, the price of Produce is higher than that of Cotton. Unless many Produce deliveries swamp the demand there, I'll be surprised if this port hits full production.

Yes, there was a mill in Tokyo. The price differential made the cotton a profitable cargo, too.

[sbaros]

I cannot even load the Japan scenario in 1.06 and Trainmaster.
Are there some compatibility issues I'm missing?

[RulerofRails]

This scenario is part of the PopTop campaign. I just tried now and I can start it fine in 1.06. Are you sure your install of 1.06 is stock?

TM has a new campaign mainly with blanks for most of the campaign slots. TM omits some of the default buildings and cargoes. If a map uses any of those it will not load.