New Scenario Available - WP&P

[WPandP]

I finally got around to uploading my own map/scenario for your enjoyment.
http://wpandp.com/RRtycoon.html - look for WPPscenario.zip

It is a "historical" scenario which puts you in charge of the Paston Valley Lines, which will one day grow up to become the proud Winchester, Paston, and Portsmouth... at least, until it gets merged into the Norfolk & Western (which, in my fictional alternate universe, happened in 1967). You begin the game as a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Baltimore & Ohio... in game terms, you're separate companies, but your options are a bit limited, especially in terms of motive power choices. You can play through and remain a B&O property, or you can claim your independence, or you can even fall under N&W's sway!

The B&O's Potomac mainline is faithfully represented, as is a sliver of N&W's Shenandoah Division, so if you just like watching trains run you can click on one of theirs and tag along for the scenery. I fear that many of you will find that this is not a challenging scenario; I built it more as a way to test the viability of my fictionalized railroad. The major challenge comes in finding a low-gradient route across the state line, going from West Virginia into Virginia. As I crafted the topography, I wanted it to be as accurate as possible, and I suspected that I would discover that there are no realistic routes through these mountains. I was very surprised to find, in all my playtesting, that there are actual several viable routes, which can be built without exceeding a 2% gradient. So, for maximum challenge, you might try to meet a 2% or even 1% target (aside from bridge approaches).

Please note that this map will require some additional content, particularly engines, but it's all stuff I downloaded here. Enjoy, and please give me your feedback!

[Hawk]

I've moved this to the Reviews forum.
I think it's a better place for it.

[wsherrick]

Cool Can't wait to play it.

[Canadian Viking]

I built it more as a way to test the viability of my fictionalized railroad.

Good for you! I have the same idea in mind for my fictional railroads which, if I ever built a large model railroad, would be the center of attraction. I want to try your game out, but I'm deep in the middle of the events for my next game (Building to the Great West) so I want to finish that first. I'm hopeful that RRT3 gives us an interesting and realistic way to "try out" fictional railroads. Maybe you could start a thread on that topic in a more appropriate section and tell us what you think of your experiment.

[WPandP]

CV-

My hope is that as players give this scenario a whirl, they will show me how they did it... with comments or screenies in this thread. I picked out my fictional route based on checking out USGS topo maps at the university library, back in the days before there were such great resources available online and free, and going through rolls of tracing paper as I pencil-surveyed my way through the hills. Having done so, I am of course biased towards my own route, but I'm guessing that there will be quite a few eye-opening deviations from the "real" route, and I'm eager to get the feedback.

One thing that was cool, though, was that going through the exercise of assigning industries based on regions and cities forced me to think in much more depth about the traffic base that really serves my model railroad. As a consequence, I now have specific named industries picked out for all the sidings on my layout. I did change history/geography in one important aspect, in that my fictional universe is one in which there is an abundant and profitable coal seam near the headwaters of the South Branch Potomac River; in truth, the two West Virginia counties that form this region are the ONLY two counties without any significant coal mining! B&O actually did build a branch line here, which still operates as a shortline, so even without the coal there was enough traffic to justify the line. My model railroad tweaks this by saying that there actually is some valuable coal there, which would have been enough to make this branch line turn into a Class 2 like the Virginian Railroad.

[wsherrick]

First of all, you did a great job on the scenery. The mountains look like West Virginia. I played it twice on medium, once starting in the 1890's and the second starting in 1921I believe. The first go round I followed the historically correct map but there was no industry to support my railroad and even after I had hooked up Winchester and the N&W my railroad ran millions in the red which frustrated me so I started again at a later date. On the second try I got silver in 1948, by directing my route where there were some industries to ship to. I also built branch lines to mines, logging camps, etc, to get the traffic for some decent revenue returns. I used the loans from the N&W to build tunnels through some of the worst ridges I had to cross. The coal hauling to the N&W was easy, finances were not.
This is a good map for experienced players who are patient, I don't see how you can get the 20 million in 20 years for the gold if you start during the earlier start dates.
I noticed that you substituted some modern engines for steam such as the SD70 for a Hudson. I'm wondering why you did that since there is a good Hudson available here for download and I guess you lowered performance on the steam locomotives so you could recreate the realistic effort needed for grade climbing.
I liked the game very much other than the modern engines being out of time, but I know you had a good reason for it.
I also like how you get the AI's to follow their own unique motive power philosophies. Having ridden on a J Class Northen and the A class you know which railroad I favor.
I also liked the way you limited industry profits in the game with the dividend payouts, that was quite creative. I have always felt that in a railroad game industry buying should be secondary. I have tried to balance this with taxes, high industry purchase prices and insanely high amounts for the gold and silver medals in the maps I have made.
Overall an excellent scenario which I will whoe heartedly recommend to all.

[WPandP]

wsherrick-

Thanks for all your feedback! I'm kinda glad you didn't find this too easy... actually building the rail is not all that difficult, after all. That's why I added in the $20M goal, since without a lot of the free-wheeling tycoon types of things that you do in other games, this is much more difficult to achieve. But that is certainly something that can be adjusted, and is rather arbitrary right now.

The SD70 substitution is not intentional, not at all! I'll have to look at it again... it may be that I referenced yet another locomotive mod, one that was not in the loco pack nor mentioned in the ReadMe. I suspect that the game is making this swap for you, though I expected that the game would just crash if it didn't find the right engine. Of course, it is possible that this was just a loose end, a place where I intended to use a custom engine but just built the game around a proxy instead! You got me curious now.

The industry dividends thing worked out pretty well. I came back to this map after doing a lot of reskins, and I had forgotten about that aspect; I launched a new game, spent all my initial cash on some apparently good buys of industries, as I always do. Then, I watched as my bank account failed to grow by much at all, year after year, despite the high profitability! But, what it did do was it made my books look a lot more solid, so that I was able to take out favorable loans. So, buying industry can still be a way to get ahead... just not a way to break the scenario.

[wsherrick]

At first I thought the engines might be a fluke, then I checked the events out and found the SD70 had been selected. Another question did you make this in the 1.05 patch or the 1.06 patch? Which ever one it shouldn't make a difference.

[WPandP]

Well, I checked the original on my own computer and the events do not have any late diesels referenced or selected. I specifically examined the ones which provide the Hudson as a choice, because you mentioned it was showing up there (I assume you mean NA-90D when you say SD70). The events call for the Royal Hudson locomotive, which perhaps needs to be downloaded separately.

I have built this in 1.05; I have yet to download the 1.06 patch, actually! My main reason is that, as I develop mods, I want to ensure maximum compatibility.

[wsherrick]

Ok that explains it I think. The earlier locomotive patches don't fit exactly with the 1.06 which I have. I don't know if the NYC Hudson is in the new patch or not because I downloaded it when Bomber first brought it out. I think I remember the Royal Hudson in the earlier locomotive pack, correct me if I am wrong. All I have to do is go into the editor and make an adjustment to give me the NYC Hudson which I already have. I went through this with my first version of Big Valley as I had events that limited locomotive availability and the first 1.06 beta patch had serious bugs with that. The newest patch corrects that problem, but if one doesn't have the correct engine in the stable the game will stick in some bizarre substitution for it. I apologize for the error in thinking you purposely put the SD70 in you scenario. My mistake. I hope we can clear this up as this will obviously happen to others who are on different patches. What I have done is provide the extra engines in an extra file with the scenario map so they can be added if someone doesn't have them. Perhaps you can think of an easier solution, I just hope I haven't caused to much fuss over this.

[WPandP]

Your comments are extremely helpful - no need to be red in the face! I knew that there might be an issue like this, and I tried to think it through prior to releasing it, but you're sort of the guinnea pig showing me what other pitfalls I need to caution others against. Unfortunately, I won't be able to edit and re-upload this map until next week, so hopefully others that take a look at it will pay attention to this thread and make the same adjustments you had to; either that, or just avoid choosing the Hudsons when the events fire.

[belbincolne]

Gave this two tries - both starting at the original early date and rapidly gave up first although this did help me understand what was happening. Probably should start later as I'm also doubtful if Gold is possible from early start date. However both starts I went on my own and was unable to get bonds to help me build so maybe I'll try the other route. On my first try I forgot and bought a Mill which did give near 20% return on capital - although that must have been only half what I'd normally have expected. I'm on the 1.06 patch as, I suspect, most of those posting here are. A few comments:

Fully agree its a great map and the game idea is both different and good although a little hard to keep track of whats needed.

The first choice of locomotive is hard to pick because I didn't know what each did. The second had some helpful hints. Anyway having taken my first choice I then bought it it - can't remember what it was supposed to be but when I looked at it later it was an American 4-4-0 which wasn't one of the engines available and is a good deal cheaper than what I'd paid for it ($40k against $120k). After the second choice the train selected didn't arrive. I wonder if this is because starting at the early date the train is not yet in production?

Third thing is that I was so broke after some 15 years that I went with one of the other companies to get $3m. I then used all this and was told I hadn't enough cash to pay the interest (I hadn't realised there was any) and that they were taking preference stock instead. Nothing of this appears on the stock market and I don't understand what this is doing to the 50%+ ownership necessity.

Stations are an inflated price - hadn't taken this in until I tried to spend my last $200k on a big one to be told I couldn't cos it was $360k. Very annoying cos buildings around towns are wide spread and you need big ones.

Downloaded your new trains which haven't appeared yet - again presumably because I haven't reached the year they were built.

There was something else but my memories gone no doubt it'll come back and I'll bring up later. Thanks for the scenario anyway it's great fun.

[WPandP]

Fully agree its a great map and the game idea is both different and good although a little hard to keep track of whats needed.

I created some reminder events which just give a message in the top left corner, plus the status page should list everything. If you can suggest something else I should do, I'll be happy to - maybe it just means editing the status pages a bit.

The first choice of locomotive is hard to pick because I didn't know what each did. The second had some helpful hints. Anyway having taken my first choice I then bought it it - can't remember what it was supposed to be but when I looked at it later it was an American 4-4-0 which wasn't one of the engines available and is a good deal cheaper than what I'd paid for it ($40k against $120k). After the second choice the train selected didn't arrive. I wonder if this is because starting at the early date the train is not yet in production?

I'll have to look at this. One thing that might be happening is that, by choosing a later start date, the event fires and makes Loco X available. Then, soon thereafter, the natural end date for Loco X hits, and it gets removed from the available pool. Thus, even though you just recently chose it, it doesn't stay available.

For the AI companies, I got past this by making their roster events fire monthly, enforcing the roster despite the natural engine life cycles. But the player choices must be one-time-only events, so if I want to do a similar thing then I need to code it differently.

BTW, the American 4-4-0 is one of the few engines that is available to all companies; I left at least one such engine in there to cover all years, so that no matter what goes wrong with your choices/events, you always have at least one option. Consolidation 2-8-0, Pacific 4-6-2, and GP-9 are the other common engines, just off the top of my head.

Third thing is that I was so broke after some 15 years that I went with one of the other companies to get $3m. I then used all this and was told I hadn't enough cash to pay the interest (I hadn't realised there was any) and that they were taking preference stock instead. Nothing of this appears on the stock market and I don't understand what this is doing to the 50%+ ownership necessity.

I've never had much trouble with staying profitable, but then that's probably because I know just how all the industries are set up. I didn't expect that players would have as much trouble as they seem to be; I did dial back the industry settings a bit because this is rural West Virginia after all!

The Loan gets paid back in $30k monthly installments, and if you can't pay then N&W "buys" a stock. You're right, this doesn't show in the game's stock market, because the game has no provision for one company owning stock in another. The scenario basically creates a hypothetical market, saying that N&W owns some percentage of the publicly-held shares (the game just tells you that "the public" owns those shares). So, your confusion tells me that a bit more explanation should be given, though I don't know whether that should be in the ReadMe or if it should be scripted into the game events.

Stations are an inflated price - hadn't taken this in until I tried to spend my last $200k on a big one to be told I couldn't cos it was $360k. Very annoying cos buildings around towns are wide spread and you need big ones.

This is something that could use fine tuning, I recognize. You start off as a subsidiary, and the main benefit of that status is that track and stations are cheaper. But then, when you go for independence, the cost must go up. Chances are, I don't have the math quite right, because it shouldn't go that high. But it seems like I've seen inconsistent results - I've played it where, as an independent railroad, my stations were still 10% discounted, when they should have gone back up.

Downloaded your new trains which haven't appeared yet - again presumably because I haven't reached the year they were built.

Those engines are scripted in to be available to N&W during certain years, so your guess is probably right.

If you have any other comments, please do share them! This is great feedback.

[belbincolne]

Had another go this time as a subsidiary and with the latest start date. Stations fine - only $200k. Trains seemed o/k. However I connected the first two stations straight away and (unlike in 1st game where it took maybe 10 years so their goods had built up) there was so little to carry that I just kept going deeper into the red and I've rapidly abandoned

My directors were VERY annoyed with me (and I don't blame them) however this reminded me of the missing thought:

In the first 5 (?) years of earlier attempt when I was doing pretty well and making reasonable profits my directors hated me and cut my salary to $3k. I think this is the only scenario where this has happened unreasonably. In most scenarios if I'd been this successful I'd have expected a small rise in pay. I only started being loved 10 years in when I connected to town 2 (the first town with route symbols).

[WPandP]

I've never seen the board of directors go all political like that, as many times as I have played it through. My technique has always been to use my initial cash to connect to either Old Fields or Sunnyvale, and Sunnyvale is almost always the better option, even though it goes west not north or east. Maybe this is another way in which industry investments can be good for you, even if they don't flood you with cash, because they show up as Board-satisfying profit. The dividend payout will keep you an honest railroader, but at least the board will stay quiet.

Also, my technique is to connect to Sunnyvale and then just run one train. I set its route such that it makes a freight-only trip each way, then it makes an express-only trip each way (with a diner tacked on). There seems to be enough traffic to keep this guy busy and profitable; the industry base on either side of the ridge between these towns is complementary. I did this specifically to help you out when starting, and Old Fields also has some complementary industry weightings though not as lucrative as Sunnyvale.

I dropped in "Coal Marshall" warehouses as a stand-in for a new building type I want to create, to try and encourage long overland deliveries of coal. They are not as subtle and effective as I wish they were, but they expose a problem with the economic model in that it starts to break down at certain geographic scales. My map is fairly well zoomed-in compared to most others, so there's long trips between stations, and demand propagation can be a problem. So yes, I know it's got a different feel to it, but it seemed to work okay for me.

[Wolverine@MSU]

I can't "save" this one. It starts OK, the map comes up fine, but when I try to save it, it gets about halfway through and then crashes to the "Send Error Report" window. Same thing happens if I play until the first autosave. I have all the logos in the UEC folder, and just installed the Loco Pack and update. Playing 1.06. Any ideas? Am I missing a loco that wasn't in the Loco Pack?

[steelm]

The scenario chrashes with the pur patch 1.06, when I try to save.

After hours of analysing I found that you need the Penn G5 loco to play this, available on the user content page.
Now its working! For gameplay you should also install the Prairie and Royal Hudson of the loco patch v-1.0.

/cu steelm

[Wolverine@MSU]

I added the Penn G5 and it still crashes. I'ld love to give this one a go, but it's just not working right.
Does someone know the names of the files in the "Engine Types" folder that correspond to the other required Locos:

Norfolk & Western Class J 4-8-4
Norfolk & Western Class Y6 2-8-8-2
Norfolk & Western Class M2 4-8-0

The "Readme" says they're in the Loco pack, which I have installed, but I'm having trouble identifying what names should be showing up in the folder in order to verify that they are there.

Thanks in advance.

[wsherrick]

Wolverine, you've got to add those separately. Go look in the extras section and you'll get them, they are not in any of the patches or add ons. The praire is'nt in the 1.06 patch either or the ROYAL Hudson. If you have the NEW YORK CENTRAL Hudson go into the editor and fix the event that gives you the Hudson. This hopefully will fix all. The game shouldn't crash though, you should just get a wierd engine in place of one you don't have in your roster, see above posts. Hope this helps.

[Hawk]

I can't "save" this one. It starts OK, the map comes up fine, but when I try to save it, it gets about halfway through and then crashes to the "Send Error Report" window. Same thing happens if I play until the first autosave. I have all the logos in the UEC folder, and just installed the Loco Pack and update. Playing 1.06. Any ideas? Am I missing a loco that wasn't in the Loco Pack?

Do I understand you right that you installed the LocoPack on top of the 1.06 patch?
Some of the locos in the LocoPack were updated in the 1.06 patch. I don't think it's a good idea to install the 1.06 patch then install the LocoPack.
If someone can verify this as true I'll make a note of this on the Extras page.