LA & L.A.

[Stoker]

I have a new scenario ready for release (I hope ) . It's called "LA & L.A." and is based on the Poptop Southern Pacific map. It is a 1.06 version map, and employs all of the cargoes available for the time period. Please give it a run through and give me any feedback that you have - positive or negative, so I can deal with any issues and have this one posted in the maps section.

Good Luck and Happy Railroading!

Edit: The finished scenario is now available in the map download section.

[belbincolne]

Have played this through for first time and got nothing. Realised now that I've re-read the other posting that I'd confused the issues there being discussions on two scanarios there

Anyway (1) I liked the scenario - bit different though I couldn't understand how my PNW kept increasing.
(2) Big problem is that in the Almanac you're not told how long remains and I for one cant remember start year so cant work out how long is left. Think I could have made PNW cash as I could have sold off shares in AIs but got nowhere near any of haulage requirements - zilch steel.
(3) Couldn't work out a strategy for taking over an AI. They were all bar one exceedingly profitable and others kept buying there shares so playing on a conventional basis it took me 3 years to get a majority stake in the one which (obviously) was in a useless place so far as the rest of the game was concerned.
(4) Couldn't make enough money to connect LA and NO in 12 years nor anything like enough to take over a second company.

Will give it another try using what I've learnt and see if I can do any better!

[Stoker]

Thank you for the feedback Belbincolne. This scenario is definitely harder than most, but I assure you it is possible to meet all of the goals, at least up to Hard level. I have yet to get Gold on Expert but I think it is possible. I see how you confused the tips for this scenario with the outline for my next one, so I will post the tips here as well to straighten that out.
Now to answer your other comments:
(1) I liked the scenario - bit different though I couldn't understand how my PNW kept increasing. Your PNW keeps increasing in the early years before you have a railroad as a bonus for chairmanship of all the industries that you own. It is explained in the Briefing and a more in depth explanation is below in the tips.
(2) Big problem is that in the Almanac you're not told how long remains and I for one cant remember start year so cant work out how long is left. Think I could have made PNW cash as I could have sold off shares in AIs but got nowhere near any of haulage requirements - zilch steel. The scenario has a fixed start year of 1870, and you have 12 years to connect New Orleans and L.A.(1882) to qualify for the Gold, which has a 25 year limit(1895). Silver can be met in 25 as well, without the 12 year connection , and Bronze has a 30 year limit (1900). This is of course explained in the Briefing, which can be pulled up at any time during the game, but I will add a readout to the ledger as well in the final version. Steel is the hardest haulage to meet. Getting connected to L.A. early and starting right away is the key there.
(3) Couldn't work out a strategy for taking over an AI. They were all bar one exceedingly profitable and others kept buying there shares so playing on a conventional basis it took me 3 years to get a majority stake in the one which (obviously) was in a useless place so far as the rest of the game was concerned. 3 years sounds about right. However, the startup railroad can be taken over in 1 year nearly every time.To meet your PNW goal however, it is better to wait a few years, collecting your industrial bonus to build your wealth. Not sure what you mean by useless place- the key is getting a railroad charter so you can build your own line, or letting the AIs build one then buying them out.
(4) Couldn't make enough money to connect LA and NO in 12 years nor anything like enough to take over a second company. It sounds like your not utilizing all the resources on the map. This is a VERY rich map with all of the 1.06 cargoes in abundance. Check the resource map for opportunities for industries.
Again for the feedback, and good luck on your next try!

[Stoker]

Here's a few tips for playing La & L.A. :

1. You can let the AI's build track(they are set to expand fast in beginning) for a while before merging with one. But dont wait too long, or you are in danger of not meeting the 12 year connection goal. Merging after about 5 years seems to work out the best. It is possible to take over one of the weaker AI's after 1 year, and I have waited and managed to get all 6 in 11.(I dont think it is possible to merge with one the first year, but I could be wrong) I have also managed to lose a few times by getting greedy and trying for all 6 and falling short. After you merge with the first railroad, the AI's slow their expansion, and merger costs increase (in hard and expert levels the merger costs continue to increase annually).

2. Decide on your first industry carefully, as your first year income is important, as it gives you the largest bonus. Buy the most profitable existing one that you can find on the map. Usually it is a textile mill. Sometimes a furnace with good profits exists, but not always, and some of the really profitable ones are too expensive to buy the first year. A meat packing plant is sometimes a good choice, but not really the best, as they cost more to upgrade, and profits are about the same as a textile mill. The industry discount lasts 2 years and 2 months- so try to make one last buy after the new bonds are available at the start of the third year.

3. If you get a railroad early, make the L.A. to San Diego line first. It makes good money and starts the passenger haulage to L.A. right away. If you get railroad after 9 or 10 years, you usually need most of your track (purchase all you can if you buy railroad late) to complete the LA-L.A. route in the required 12 years for Gold qualification. Also, making the connection to Bakersfield early starts the lumber count early on. After you acquire a railroad, keep in mind that you must have the cash on hand ($800k for the maximum 400 sections) to purchase track at the start of each year. No Cash= No Track.

3. Steel is the hardest haulage quota to meet. Start it early. Check the warehouses to find which supply steel. Utilize the Coal & Iron available to make more. There is lots of Coal in the high desert area- making a steel mill where it is accumulating there and shipping in the iron from the east makes the trip to L.A. with the steel much quicker.

4 Make Hotels Restaurants and Taverns a lot as they are set to make good profits.

5. There are several passenger generating buildings available to build. Commercial buildings-Churches-Stadiums-etc. Putting some of these in key cities (especially in L.A.) will really help you meet the 200 passenger goal. Most are money losers so build them and then sell them.

6. Make sure that in the years before you have a railroad, that your company has the cash on hand to pay your personal bonus.The bonus is based on a fraction of the years industry profits-using the difficulty level +1 as the base # then adding 1 to the divisor each year. Example: on expert the first years bonus is 1/4 or 25% of YTD industry profits - 1+3+0---3 being the # for expert level. The second year would be 1/5 or 20% - 1+3+1- then 1/6 and so on until you acquire a railroad- on easy the first years bonus is 1/1 or 100% of YTD industry profits- 1+0- zero being the # for easy level then 1/2-1/3-etc. Check the Ledger, it tells you how much you have coming so you can have the cash ready at years end to pay it. Missing the bonus payment in one of the early years makes it tough to merge early.

I have tested this map quite a few times, so f I can get just a few feedbacks from you all after trying it, I will have Hawk post the finished version.

Good Luck and Happy Railroading!

[belbincolne]

This came through just as I "finished" my second (third) attempt. This time everything went very well having understood the requirements better. I decided to buy into the N O company but on the 2nd try although I virtually owned it all it got to be worth nearly $15m and I couldn't get $5m cash to add to max bonds. Third go I wasn't so greedy and contented myself with 51% took out maximum bonds and bought it.

Making good money and followed your advice first building in LA then extending west from NO to join up in the final year for Gold. Would have been a year earlier but I was 4 miles short!! Then started hauling freight etc. Steel was pretty easy - built a steel mill where the coal/iron are and hauled away - took three years to get there but theres a ton of it unlike some of the other items - and boy is that mill profitable.

Then came the crunch - up pops a note saying I've lost Gold - do I want to play on - I did but just to check that I wasn't bonkers. Yes every bit of line between the two stations was mine. So why wasnt it recognised - it was on the first attempt and the only difference was that I took over the NO station not build it myself - any ideas?

[Stoker]

I don't know why the connection isn't registering, I never had that happen even when taking over the NO station from the AI, but I am interested in finding out.Try routing a train from NO to L.A. and see if there is a break in the line. Also,you must own ALL the line forming the connection between the two stations for the cities connected to trigger. If even 1 section of the track connecting the two is AI owned, the cities connected will NOT trigger. If you can send me the save game(my e-mail is listed or in a PM) I will take a look at it and see if I can tell what the culprit is.
Again, thank you for the feedback, and I hope your enjoying this scenario. Make Uncle P.P. proud and develop that real estate!

Edit to add: I put a lot of effort and testing into the track allotments and pricing, it warms the cockles of my heart that you fell just 4 short of connecting a year early . I really wanted to make a challenging scenario, most seem too easy, and once you win them once it easy to repeat. This one is pretty difficult, I fall short sometimes, even though I know the scenario inside out. BTW, I removed a couple of random events (LA earthquake, and Floods) that were REAL buggers!

[belbincolne]

There's no break cos I've set a train off LA-NO (hugely profitable - except that as it will take perhaps 3 years to get there the profit will probably disapear). Will try to re-check minutely that there isn't a small section of AI anywhere - shouldn't be because as I was connecting each bit I tried to ensure there wasn't - but maybe I got careless - I do connect AI stations just to get them to use my lines (got perhaps $500k in some years from them - not as profitable as in many other scenarios - and often because they use my lines the AI runs at a loss so they become easy to takeover - not here!).

Will get back - probably tomorrow now.

[belbincolne]

This is just stupid. In the Almanac it now says connected whereas before when I lost it said not connected and I haven't done anything but close and reload the game - nor added any lines in the area between the two for many years. At times computers are beyond me!

[Stoker]

The Ledger will continue to display the connection status after the "Lose GOLD" event which only excludes you from winning the GOLD. So it is possible that you actually did fail to make the connection in time and then you got the "Lost GOLD" message, and now you are playing with only Silver and Bronze available to win. This is exactly what should happen and it sounds like this is the case here.

[KevinL]

Maybe the computer isnt checking for the connection between LA & L.A. until later in the year, after it checked to see if you won the gold?

I realize you might have the event written as "when station or track is placed" but its just something I thought of.

[Stoker]

The station to station connection test is a pre-programmed item and it registers nearly instantly for the display in the ledger . The variable that handles the status of the connection is checked for at the end of each week, and the events are extremely simple. The most likely explanation for Belbincolne getting the "Lost Gold" message (choice actually) is because the connection was in fact not complete in the time allotted and the event fired correctly, but without a save game I cannot tell for sure.

The line from New Orleans to L.A. is extremely long and I have several times thought I had it connected, when in fact a small (even single) piece of AI track was somewhere in the line, which is not acceptable to trigger the "city connects to city" event.Another explanation for being able to program a train route from NO to LA , yet not have the cities connect trigger is that the "main line " built appeared to be complete but was actually not connected completely with his track, but a connection WAS made through a section of AI track somewhere.

I have tested the connection / qualify for Gold events repeatedly, including several times today, and the event sequence appears solid. I tested the connection trying every combination of acquiring the existing New Orleans station from the AI, and every test worked fine. If this happens again, or to anyone else, please save the game and send it to me so I can examine the situation.

Again, from what I was told, my analysis is that the connection test actually worked as it should.

Edit to add- BTW, I finally managed to win Gold on Expert level today, so it too is indeed possible.

[belbincolne]

I'll have another play later today - its throwing it down here so wont be going out!

Connection status. I've now connected twice - didn't check ledger either time but at year end (normally some 10 months later) each time I've had a newspaper message to say I've connected. This second try I was 4 miles short at year end and got the message to say that as it was my last year I could buy extra line at a ridiculous cost which I did and immediately connected (presumably in Jan of that year). As I've said I didn't get the connected newspaper till year end and didn't check ledger. Could the last extra line message be firing up a year late?

Several years later I was told I couldn't get gold because I wasn't connected and sure enough the ledger said I wasn't. I'd already entered Gold or nothing so lost but played on just to look at ledger - unconnected. Still Jan 1 as play was stopped. Switched off and reported. When I then re-opened the auto save ledger said connected. Its beyond me and, I suspect, won't be repeatable so I shall now just hope to be able to get gold - on Normal incidentally.

I'll also make a note of the years so that I know better what I'm doing Incidentally in most RT3 scenarios there is an error in that you are told that you must reach your target BY xxxx implying 31/12 of the year before but in fact you have until 31/12 of xxxx. When I last checked this 2 or 3 years ago it applied to the majority of both PopTop and User made scenarios because the Editor leads you that way - don't know what the position is in this scenario - as I've said elsewhere its so ong since I've made a scenario that I've forgotten how to use the Editor

[belbincolne]

O/K this attempt played totally accurately. Used same strategy - i.e. bought N O railroad shares and took over after about 4 years and connected a year early. Then I tried to send required loads. Hopeless I'm afraid. I got about 60% of each - passengers particularly bad although I built lots of churches/schools etc as recommended. I had easily 60 loads of steel on the move but train took about 5 plus years to get there so again only had about half. Didn't really understand the new Industries so can understand why they failed to have enough carryings but Goods failed miserably - again as T&Ds were built near steel mills they took 5+ years to arrive. I had also double lined to avoid congestion.

Almanac showed connection almost immediately. Newspaper at year end.

Personal cash dead easy - I had about double - and I was worth three times that.

Hints on how to get required loads moved would help although have now reached saturation on the scenario for a while Still it is a nice, different which is good, play.

[Stoker]

It sounds like the scenario is performing as it should. From your last post I think you are about 1/2 way to figuring out how to balance the industries, load requirements, and personal wealth goals to win. Your comment about having so much excess personal cash says a lot. That extra money should be being used to acquire more of the other railroads, thereby opening up more sources for all of the haulage items.Also, trains that are hauling non-goal related loads can be sent to L.A. or even retired, thereby leaving more loads available to meet your goals.When I acheived Gold on Expert level yesterday, I BARELY squeaked in to achieving the Personal Cash of 25 Mill, pumping money from the Company by way of dividends and stock buybacks, increasing my own shares value- which I then sold at the last minute.

Most of the haulage items can come from short haul sources, the only one that really requires long hauls is the steel. The Ceramics, Concrete, and Goods for instance can easily be entirely supplied from Pheonix. The lumber can be supplied almost entirely from Bakersfield(build a cheap and steep route and use Shays here) and the Passengers quota can be met from cities from Phoenix westward. The Passenger related buildings all have a demand/supply aspect to them, so you need to build some in the "supply" cities as well as in L.A. to make them produce.

I also suspect you are having congestion problems in the mountains east of Phoenix, and on the pass (El Cajon) over the mountains to L.A. itself. Again, use the extra cash you have later in the game( I commonly reach Yearly Company Profits in the $10-15 Million range in this scenario towards the end). Build some well placed tunnels. For instance, a complete tunnel cutting through the mountains starting near Palm Springs and coming out near Mission Veijo usually costs around $14 Million, but is worth every cent, as it drastically reduces delivery time. A few smaller tunnels in the Mountains east of Phoenix are also well worth their large pricetags. Also keep in mind that the area for L.A. is large and you can put several separate stations there to further relieve congestion. I generally put in my first one which has my "steep and cheap" initial line over to Phoenix, then when I add the Bakersfield and northern line I give it its own station, then when I punch a tunnel through I give it its own station in L.A. and in Phoenix as well, leaving the old Phoenix to L.A. line operating with Shays.

In your previous post it is unclear what you are referring to(31/12?- do you mean 12/31 or December 31?) . I will therefore guess that you are referring to whether the goals are set to the beginning or end of a particular year. The answer is that they are referring to the END of any particular year, meaning for instance that the 12 year connection goal has until the END of 1882 to meet it. I originally was going to make the start year variable in this scenario, but elected to make it fixed as the scope and complexity involved in this large map mushroomed. I have read all of the goal related messages, and all but one state that you have "until the end of" except the briefing which says "you have 12 years". I will re-write all of these so that they state "to the end of 1882 or 1890- etc" to clarify exactly what is meant there.

I again for your feedback, it is greatly appreciated. I hope you are enjoying this scenario, and I am certain that you are on the right "track" to victory, so keep trying!

[Stoker]

I managed to get Gold on Expert again today. I saved a few screenshots which are attached below. I went for the Phoenix and Gila Bend company, getting it the third year. On Expert level, the merger costs keep rising every year after you get a railroad, and I managed to merge with one other after a few years, and another in the last year after I had sold off everything my company owned and barely got enough to merge, and this, along with selling off all my stock,put my personal cash over the $25 Million mark in the last year to win Gold(1895). The "Early Merger" strategy makes the connection by 1882 and haulage goals easier, but the Personal Cash goal harder.

[Stoker]

I have refined the year messages and fixed some other messages so they display better. I would certainly like at least one more review of this scenario before I post the final version, but thus far it seems that everything is functioning as it should, so if I dont get any additional feedback I intend to send the final version to Hawk for posting tomorrow.

Good Luck and Happy Railroading!

[belbincolne]

Phew. Where to start?

Personal cash. I can easily buy enough shares to have a majority in AIs - but (after the initial buy) I never have enough company cash to take them over. Nor do I have enough company cash to build tunnels. To make the LA - NO connection takes every cent I have using the cheapest possible lines (i.e. building over hills). Each time I've played I've then had a brief highly profitable period before the economy goes downhill again - I suppose I could tunnel out of LA during that time but I've always used it to connect elsewhere (Mostly to the north-east where the only iron/coal/steel is) and, in particular, to build the most incredibly profitable steel mill - because the one that appears isn't where the raw materials are.

Loads - ceramics/goods/concrete. Well Phoenix didn't produce enough to half meet the target. Should I spend some money building these industries there? Switching non-target goods trains - well most of the target ones make very little profit so I'm relying on the others to bring it in. Steel would be the exception but the trains take too long to get there. Maybe I should be concentraing more on building Industry than railroading but (after the initial period) I seem to need all my cash to build lines to where the required goods are located. Incidentally what counts as Goods? In RT3 mostly its T&D but there must be extra in RT6.

Loads2 - Passengers. This is a disaster. I've built every dept store (6?) at least 2 churches/schools/sports halls etc. Still they don't come. Hadn't occured to me to build them in other cities - most have very few passengers anyway so which ones to choose. Lumber - nearly as bad - most of the timber is north (Bakersfield?) and I've had two lumber mills up there supplying a bit. NNE is another timber area but I never have enough cash to get over the mountains to it.

31/12 - I'm English so its only got one meaning (can never understand 7/11 cos I was flying to USA that day and thought it was in my July hols). Using good (UK) English by 1932 means 1/1/32 not 31 Dec 32 but 90% (?) of scenarios give you the extra 12 months

PNW - I don't really understand this in this scenario. O/K I get loads from my share of Industry profits in the early years and thought this was supposed to dry up - but it continues to pour in. I never pay any dividends nor share buy backs but meet the cash requirements easily despite using it (and going into the red) to buy shares in AIs until there are none left to buy. This is usually somewhere around 15 years in. My intention was of course to sell them just before the deadline to get cash. But I've never needed to - after the AI chairmen have bought up every single share (incl my company) enough has kept coming in to meet the $25?m without selling any. It looks as though its playing differently for me. Why? I'm playing on Normal whereas you're on Hard/Expert but that shouldn't make any difference.

Phew again. Anyway I'll give it another bash using your hints partic on tunnelling and extra LA stations.

[Stoker]

Hi again Bel, thanks for the reply. The things you mention in your last post are basic gameplaying issues that you already brought up in previous posts and which I have already addressed, and without giving actual click by click instructions on how to play the game I don't see anything else I can add to the scenario tips. I have thoroughly tested this scenario on all levels, trying many different strategies to achieve the goals and I am certain that the game is winnable on all skill levels using several completely different strategies.

My goal when I began creating this scenario was to make it challenging and that it offer replayability, without having one "secret" that once discovered could simply be repeated to win every time. With this in mind I had two basic concerns when I posted this beta version:

1. That there were basic flaws in events.
2. That it was too easy, or that there were unnoticed strategies that would allow easy victories.

Thus far I have gotten no indication that there are flaws in any events, and from the tenor of Belbincolne's posts it sounds like the scenario is indeed quite challenging. I have re-written all game messages to make them as concise as possible, and am now in the process of making the higher levels of the game more difficult by adding in a few more random events. When I have retested the game with the extra curveballs thrown in I will send the final version to Hawk for posting.

again for the feedback, and Happy Railroading!

[JFMarvelous]

Hi Stoker, Just a few items you might check out. After merging with one of the Al's that used electric track, every time I tried to lay any new tract I had to turn off the electric tract function.
Also after merging with another AI, I noticed that they had a DD80(last engine availible)around 1980,but never did show up in my loco's availible to use. Note that this happened after I had lost, but chose to continue to play. I run the game past year 2010 before I stopped playing.(I saved it because I sometimes will play a map past a thousand years).

[Stoker]

After getting the feedback from Bel that he thought that this scenario might be "unwinnable", and knowing full well that it actually is quite easily winnable, I decided to go back to two scenarios that I myself considered unwinnable and retry them. The first was Building to the Great West, which I thought might have track allowance and cargo flaws, not having enough of the needed haulage items to meet the Gold requirements. I was wrong. This scenario is in fact winnable, even on Expert level. The strategy to win BttGW is to focus entirely on your own company, getting complete ownership, and to ignore all the secondary objectives, which are actually just red herrings and are not necessary to win.

The second scenario I considered unwinnable was Denver & Western. The general consensus (which I agreed with)is that the event scripting in this scenario makes victory impossible, but it turns out that this one is indeed also winnable. In the case of D&W, there is a "secret" that once you discover makes it possible to win Gold. The secret is to play in an unconventional manner , using stock buying and chairmanship takeovers to gain control of the central company "Denver Rail & Commerce" in the first two seconds of the game. After this, you can get control of all but one other company - the Union Pacific, and meeting the company book value and connection requirements is fairly easy.The briefing and "ledger" might lead you to believe that you cant win if you lose control of "Denver & Western", but in fact doing a chairmanship takeover of Denver Rail & Commerce and then merging with D&W is the ONLY way to win this one.The event scripting in D&W is pretty buggered up, and some of the random events are mis- written and cause game crashes ( a few of which I have identified and am considering fixing ), but if you reload and keep playing you can make it all the way through. I have written a click by click method to gain control of DR&C in the first two seconds of this scenario, which is posted in the game strategies section here:

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