Canyon Lands - BETA Version

Discussion about reviews and strategies for user created scenarios made for RT3 version 1.06.
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OilCan
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

RayofSunshine wrote:I did find an obstacle with the terrain at "the Pulpit". Laying track along the "incline", I was not able to get over the "flat" terrain. After a number of attempts, I Just used the Editor and lowered that edge. This must be about the steepest terrain to gain access to a site. A real challenge. Well at least I found it so.
Let me suggest that it is easier to build 'backwards' off a pinacle, such as Pulpit Rock and Steamboat. By this I mean it is easier to first place the station at the scenic site, then to run track from the station towards the main line. This helps make sure that the bridge coming off the pinacle is level.

I also suggest that you do not use 'passenger only' trains, but let all the trains run on 'auto consist' with a dining car. I think you will see more profit and more passengers being hauled this way. Late in the game, you may want to set up passenger only trains between the cities, but I noticed that these trains don't make a lot of money.

I too have toured this area, actually several times, but I was only a wee lad the last time I went to Bryce Canyon. I'd like to see that spot again.
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Hawk
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

OilCan wrote:
Hawk wrote:Sometimes those guided tours are profitable, and sometimes - not so much. !*00*!
I think the same thing happened to my retirement 401K last week. :shock:
^**lylgh I heard that.
OilCan wrote:I also suggest that you do not use 'passenger only' trains, but let all the trains run on 'auto consist' with a dining car. I think you will see more profit and more passengers being hauled this way. Late in the game, you may want to set up passenger only trains between the cities, but I noticed that these trains don't make a lot of money.
That's probably a good tip. I tried a second time, this time on expert level, and I had dedicated express and dedicated freight and I'm doing terrible. ^**lylgh
I think I'll go back and start again, on expert, and run auto consists.
OilCan wrote:I too have toured this area, actually several times, but I was only a wee lad the last time I went to Bryce Canyon. I'd like to see that spot again.
I hiked down into the Grand Canyon back in '67 for about 3 days. It was great. We did a lot of cave exploring. I'd love to go back there, but I'm not so sure about hiking back down into it these days. I'm not as young as I once was and my legs and back get a bit upset with me if I use them too much. :mrgreen:
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Hawk
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

Another thing I noticed. In the weak engines event you ask about removing 7 engines from the selection list, but 5 of them are not even in the selection list. They aren't even checked in the loco list in the editor.

Class P8
Class S
Class S3
Class A1
Mallard - Class A4 4-6-2

I probably wouldn't mind having the Mallard available, even though it's more expensive than the Zephyr because it's another ultra cool engine and it's available until 1968.

The Class S3 is only available until 1925 so it wouldn't even be an option in this scenario.
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OilCan
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

Hawk wrote:Another thing I noticed. In the weak engines event you ask about removing 7 engines from the selection list, but 5 of them are not even in the selection list. They aren't even checked in the loco list in the editor.

Class P8
Class S
Class S3
Class A1
Mallard - Class A4 4-6-2
Very odd. The Class P8, Class S, Class A1 and Mallard are checked in the loco list in my copy of BETA2.
The Class S3 is odd as well. You are correct, it becomes unavil in 1925.
I must have been half-asleep when I wrote that event! :-?
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

That is strange. **!!!**
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RulerofRails
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

My loco selection is fine. Don't know what to suggest. Do you have another install to try the map in and compare?

I played this through again, this time hauling freight and using lots of Zephyrs. I forgot that I could buy access to Arizona right away, so flubbed it pretty well. Still useful from a testing perspective.

I noticed this:
The second and third info messages fired for me even though I chose "skip the rest of the info." Using CV1 for the subisdy as well is fine, but they need to not interfere. I got the message because the subsidy check (from the previous year I made >3.5M) had made CV1=1 and I had an event choice in that year. I am sure you know a good way to do this, but CV1=10, CV1=20 and then reset would work fine for the info notices. I had to look at the subsidy events for this. A question about them: should the notice for end subsidy also include an "OR" condition for if CV1=5 to take care of all possibilities? For example if the player made >3.5M for the third time in a bad economy, and then after two subsequent years of >3.5M CV1 will be 5 and the subsidy will stop on its own, but without any notice thereof.

Small spelling/grammar niggles:
Advertising Info: "bring in the tourist."
Ad campaign 3: "Colors ads in travel magazines"

Grand thumb connection newspaper:
"terrifying ride to pinacle point"

As I was playing I was thinking about events to help the late game. The idea of sitting around waiting for the Hotel and Restaurant profits to come in for 5 or so years at the end of the game (depending on how much money a player makes) isn't all that appealing. I don't suggest to make the map harder per se, but surely there are ways to keep the better player engaged for longer without having too big an impact on the average player. An idea for this would be that depending on how many scenic sites are connected in the first 10 years the cost of track would rise by an amount (for example, 75% if more than 30 scenic sites are already connected, but 45% if 20-30 are connected) , the cost of Hotels would rise as well (200% for >30, 120% for 20-30). The idea is that increased track cost should slow down the players advance up into the high mountains and increased Hotel cost should dampen the appeal of building multiple Hotels in the cities. Also, all the upgrades are good, but the player will end up choosing them every time. There isn't much strategy involved in those decisions. Perhaps the cost of these could be roughly equal to industry profits in the last year. These events could increase the cost of building Hotels and Restaurants as well as they will now earn more. To prevent a big loss of cash put an option to finance but make sure the interest rate is high enough to make it a strategy decision (I would suggest 20%+).

If you want a test for players trying the express only route, perhaps Lifetime Average Freight Speed=0 can be used so they don't receive many track and Hotel cost increases.

Did you ever think of making seperate territories for the cites vs. the scenic sites vs. the rest of the map? If you did, did you think of trying to adjust the passenger production rates differently for those regions? This could help make a player think twice before founding "unauthorized" scenic sites at the random houses that 1.06 will seed no matter what as output of passengers there could be very low. Also Hotel and Restaurant costs could be different in the different areas. For example, cheaper at the scenic sites, more expensive in the cities and really expensive thorughout most of the map (at any "unauthorized" scenic sites).

Just some ideas. Don't use them if you don't like them. But if not, maybe you could find another way to work a mid-game price increase for Hotels and Restaurants into the game. They are a big part of this game.
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Hawk
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

RulerofRails wrote:My loco selection is fine. Don't know what to suggest. Do you have another install to try the map in and compare?
I just added them in. Easiest thing to do since OC's version is fine, and now since your install is fine, no need to worry about it anymore. :mrgreen:

I do have a couple other 106 setups I could check in if necessary.

Edit 1: I did put this map in another 1.06 setup, a default setup, and the Class S, Class P8, Class A1, and the Mallard are checked in the loco list in the editor. The Class S3 is not checked, but it isn't available after 1925 anyway.
In the setup I had this map in originally, the Mallard was labeled Class A4. My guess is the setup I was playing in had some loco customization installed at some point.
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OilCan
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

ROR - those are great ideas. Thanks for sharing them. You will probably see them appearing in the final version. And, as always, thanks for the spelling / grammar assistance. I can look my own misspellings over and over and never see them.

I'm on the road for a while this month, I will probably not be able to work on the final version for a couple of weeks.
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

Okay OilCan,
I had previously indicated the problem of gaining access to "The Pulpit", and that I eventually had to go into the Editor and "round off" the access to the "table top". In that play attempt, I was making the approach up the "gradual incline" on the left side of the table top. It required a "big ass curve" and lot of revenue cost for the incline. Well I went back to study the map in RoR or whoever, to see that there was an indication of access from the right side of the table top. That was considerably much more advantageous and considerably less costly, even with the steel bridges. Just thought I would bring that to life for other members. :salute: {,0,}
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

Okay, I did manage to get the Gold in the Medium Level, but have a few questions. I use the "custom" for the passengers, and the "regular" for the freight. However, on the initial "run", the majority of the time I am only hauling a diner, but the freight could be hauling a passenger. Even though I check the depot supply, and show that a specific destination "to or from" the original depot of supply, the majority of the time the haul is mainly that of a diner. **!!!** *!*!*! Any comments?
Oh. My settings are "0" with a consist of 5. Appreciated. :salute: {,0,}
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

RayofSunshine wrote:Okay, I did manage to get the Gold in the Medium Level, but have a few questions. I use the "custom" for the passengers, and the "regular" for the freight. However, on the initial "run", the majority of the time I am only hauling a diner, but the freight could be hauling a passenger. Even though I check the depot supply, and show that a specific destination "to or from" the original depot of supply, the majority of the time the haul is mainly that of a diner. **!!!** *!*!*! Any comments?
Oh. My settings are "0" with a consist of 5. Appreciated. :salute: {,0,}
As OC mentioned about 10 posts back, don't use custom consists for this scenario, but if you must, and you use any express then it's probably best to mark the freight trains as any freight.
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

Hey Hawk,
I never gave it a thought to "custom" freight as "all cargo". Thanks for the suggestion, as well as the mention of OC suggestion of not using "custom" consists. I do recall a mention of "not forcing passengers" comment" so will have to give both an attempt. I really like this scenario, as I spent some vacations of that area. Did not realize that there were that many sites of which I was not aware. Too bad, as now the wife and I don't have the physical capabilities for such outings. So, I relive those days during which I was able. Oc has done a real good job with both the "theme" and terrain. Of course the selection of engines do help to make the scenario desirable for my type of playing. :salute: {,0,}
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

RayofSunshine wrote:Hey Hawk,
I never gave it a thought to "custom" freight as "all cargo".
Not all cargo. Use any freight.
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

RayofSunshine, I don't want to confuse you with my advice as well. But "any freight", and "any express" are in my opinion a type of "custom consist". As always, a discussion comes down to what you are doing to make profit and what you are doing to make the goals and win the game. Basically, "any cargo" is going to make more revenue while "any express" will ensure that all passengers available at the station are transported helping towards the goals. As always it is up to the player's strategy. Normally, concentrating purely on making money for the first few years pays off in the long run as you can expand quickly and have a solid revenue base for future expenditures. Then with a good size network which will produce passengers fairly quickly start building Hotels and making Express-only routes. I tend to not make a sudden switch, but gradually spend more on the goals and less on investments for pure profit. It's a balance thing.

If there are no passengers wanting to travel it doesn't matter what settings you use, none will travel. As far as I know the game only checks for whether a train is stopping at a station regularly and which towns are coming up on its route when deciding which passengers want to travel (as you have noticed many aren't looking to go anywhere). It doesn't look for use of a custom consist or if the trains on that route is Ultra Cool (this affects revenue the passengers will pay however). The more often that train/s travels on a route, the more likely the game will give some passengers from a stack a desire to travel on it. Once a route is established by frequent service you will see some passengers waiting to travel that particular route. The more passengers you haul, the lower the fee paid by passengers traveling that route, but remember that Hotel and Restaurant revenue is necessary for the goal and since it is high in this scenario it will easily make up for any train losing a little money. In this stage of the game, as long as the whole route setup is break-even it can be a good investment in terms of the medal (remember that with passenger routes it takes a little time for a route to be established, so after 2 or 3 years). It's a matter of checking the passenger map a couple of times every year (later in the year is better) to see where there are demands for passengers to travel that you aren't fulfilling. And buy any trains you need.

When I played the second time with freight, I mainly used "any express" trains. The others were "any cargo". I only had the "any cargo" trains on particular routes. Mainly between the towns which have warehouses and industries supplying cargo. I put some on selected routes to scenic sites, the idea was that these were short routes mainly in the west of the map early on to distribute warehouse cargo there (started with a station in Camelback and hauling warehouse freight there). By limiting these "any cargo" trains to shorter routes I saved on fuel while increasing the cargo density in those portions of the map which means that price swings (read profits) will be higher than if the cargo was randomly distributed in small amounts all over the map.

The main argument for using "any express" trains is this: under a certain price point (depends on strategy, but let's say $10k per load) it is actually detrimental hauling freight. Either it is stealing supply from industries that will now suffer production irregularities (not such an issue on this map with little industry) or for consumer cargoes (Meat, Goods, Cheese, etc.) there is far more benefit from less frequent service when that same haul could give you $20k per load (less a small amount of cargo which has been consumed) while also costing less in fuel and train maintenance costs as less trains are used to theoretically maintain a higher price point. As you haul plenty of passengers especially on short trips, their price point will go below the price point at which you want to haul freight ($20k for this example). A train on "any cargo" will now mainly fill with low value freight instead of the passengers you want to haul. Increasing the number of trains will hurt further as more freight miles will be hauled at lower revenues and higher cost.

As always, this stuff is a little of the theory and in practical terms it can seem to be only a small thing. Didn't want to confuse but maybe some new ideas. ;-)
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

Good perspective RoR.
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

There's a village/town southwest of Page that's named somethingorother ALTER. There's a small mesa next to it, and if it's supposed to refer to a sacrimental table, the correct spelling is ALTAR.

I got Gold on Expert with a few years to spare. I was just waiting at the end to get Hotel/Restaurant profits up to the required level; got PAX a year or two before. I had connected all the sites/cities, but the status page showed only 49 connections. I searched and searched the map for any little dots that weren't connected or places I missed but I'll be darned if I could find any. A more careful station-by station search (zooming in on each station to look at the footprint) revealed my problem: one station, although the footprint included the one building that was there, it didn't go all the way to the city center, and was thus logged as "not connected". Couldn't upgrade the station size 'cause the Hotel and Restaurant were built right next to it, so I ran a little spur track into the city center and built a small station there to get the connection. I think there was a warning about this in the Readme.

Good map. Could use something to hold interest in the later stages. I bit on almost all of the tourist incentives except a couple when I didn't have the needed cash. I may replay and deny all of these and see how it affects thing. From what I've read above it may only slow down completion slightly, which may be able to compensated for by running more trains. I only ran a couple of "Express Only" trains late in the game to shuttle some PAX from big cities to nearby sites, but mostly just mixed consist on Automatic. Later in the game I was running max-load trains between the big cities to supply freight loads to distribute to sites (I mostly used the Hub-and-Spoke method) and the few cars of PAX that wanted to make the long trips. All trains had Diners but no Caboose. Started with Ultra-Cool locos, but when the U-1 became available I used that almost exclusively, except for a few Big Boys for lines with higher grades (5-8).
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

Wolverine@MSU wrote:I may replay and deny all of these and see how it affects thing.
This is a good idea. I suspect a good challenge can be had from doing this. Please let us know how it goes. I suspect the idea could eat away at me, so might have to try it too, but I have other things that I need to do first.
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

I'm only at 1943 right now. I spend a lot of time at the beginning of the year plotting strategy and laying track, and with limited time to play it takes a while. I'll let you know how I fare and give a comparison to my first try.
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

So I finally finished and due to an economy downturn for the last few years and my poor management (i.e. weeding out) of non-profitable trains I ended up in 1966 with about $3 M in debt and got no medal. I did manage to meet the PAX goal (3,274 loads) but fell way short on the Hotel/Restaurant profit ($27,403,018). In my previous play I was able to achieve the profit goal by October of 1958, so while denying the incentives doesn't have a big negative impact on PAX loads, it has a huge impact on H/R profits. In addition to not coming close to the profit goal, there is another important consequence of lagging H/R profit: it took much longer to expand the rail system to connect all 50 sites due to lower cash amounts at the end of the year. This is only made worse by the lower bonuses paid at the end of the year for H/R profits. I had 19 Hotels with negative earnings (-$3k each) and 13 Restaurants at -$2k each compared to only 3 Hotels and 2 Restaurants in the red when I played with the incentives. So the take-home lesson is that any offer that increases H/R profits is a worthwhile investment and it would be next to impossible to meet the H/R profit goal without them.

Still a very nice scenario, and I too have travelled extensively in the area back when I was much younger and unmarried. One thing that's missing is the inclusion of Canyonlands National Park, and the nearby Arches NP. I realize that the map would likely have to be enlarged to encompass those areas so it's not likely to happen without starting from scratch, but one area that I think could be included in the current map is Monument Valley Navajo Tribal Park Although not part of the US Parks system, it is, and was then, a popular tourist spot and could be made a part of the Navajo territory. Just a thought.

Nice job. !!clap!!
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Re: Canyon Lands - BETA Version Unread post

That's as I suspected. H/R profits are low. Just wondering, did you build more than one H/R in any city? How many total? Also, What year did you buy access to Arizona or did you wait for cheaper access?
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