Cargo & Industry fixes for 1.06

[sidekikd34]

This probably means tedium out the wazoo, but if I read correctly, a good fix for manually placed industries remaining compatible forward-backward is to make tiny regions, i.e. just a hair bigger that the desired building, with that one industry maxed out probability, so it is generated by the game each time? I mean, when designing new scenarios with the same "building" with the new skin.

[Blackhawk]

It has been awhile since I have looked at the editor but I'm not sure that method would work. I know you can control regions and cities but I don't think you can change the production in a territory, and the smallest "Region" you can make is too big to limit just 1 industry building from appearing.

[sidekikd34]

Which is why I don't build maps. I have ideas, and things I think would be cool, but it's too involved, and I lose interest in fiddling and I go back to playing what I have already.

Back to the Furnace/Quarry issues, do you know what maps are good for testing the situation? I got the impression it varies from map to map, which is what led me to believe it may be more of a map problem than the industry itself.

[Blackhawk]

This post and the map from Oilcan below it may be of some use for testing/seeing how it works. Also the Chili map uses both but the high mountains have an effect on cargo prices.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3641&start=210#p36946

I think one of the issues is that nothing demands ingots early on in the game until the machine shop later. (I could be wrong on this it has been a few months since I've looked at the supply chain). Which is why I changed the church to now demand an ingot.

[RulerofRails]

I would also suggest trying one Arop's maps such as Tasmania or The Deep South. The Chile one has production and price modifiers that distort the normal situation of the quarry. Oilcan's map should be representative also. Adding the Ingot demand to the church fixed much of the problem as the crux of the problem was that Ore was worth almost the same or less than the finished Ingots. Remember to try testing with both inputs (Ore and Rock) present. What you will find is that if Ingots are worth less than Ore, the Furnace will still produce as much Ingots as it can at the expense of Ceramic production. But this does nothing for a normal demand for Crystals. Some maps such as Novia Scotia by Arop and L.A. & L.A. by Stoker have used warehouses to bridge some of these gaps, but there is no in-game fix for it.

The best map makers have balanced the seeding out pretty well. Probably they use the city settings. These things have come a long way from maps such as Mississippi Valley/Germantown that end up littered with bad industries. Will have to delve more into it soon.

[sidekikd34]

FYI I just tried this out in the editor, and a region can be painted (carefully) as small as 1 "region square", which is 4x4 grid squares, the same size as the largest industrial building footprint. The brush usually paints 2 "region squares" but you can use the surrounding region to paint back over the extra space. This might mean best practice for map making is to do manual placement this way instead of actually building the buildings.

If a region is described to have one industry (quarries) at 100% weight, does the number of buildings spawned depend on the footprint of the buildings? I just tried out "Rebuilding the Deep South", and it spawned 16 quarries right next to each other in the quarries region. Other raw materials spawn at MUCH lower concentration, except the coal mine, and coal is demanded by everything up until 1910, when the Electric Plant shows up with its large demand to compensate. If we're going to have such a huge amount of Crystals and Rock available, they need a demand source. Or is my map spawning wrong because I shrunk the quarry building from a farm size to the Uranium Mine size?

[RulerofRails]

Depending on the situation there will always be a small chance that there is a municipal building in the region that will block industry placement. Even at 0% weighting houses and other municipal buildings will appear on the map. See this thread for info: viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2371&hilit=1.06+houses

I just tried a seed of "Rebuilding the Deep South" with the standard 1.06 quarries. I ended up with 28 on the map. 8 in the western part of the Quarries region, and 10 in each of the other two parts. I was a little surprised to see that two quarries were on the same map square, but think I remember seeing it once before. (I think that the footprint is actually the aluminum mill not a farm.) Since the density is maximum (400%), the footprint may make a difference later on simply because of how many more will fit into the space before it is full. I don't know for sure, but at lower density levels in larger regions I don't think there would be a significant difference (maybe get more success for attempts to place them close to mountains) in quarries that get seeded.

The way Arop made maps was based on real world locations of resources. Generally mining is done in small defined regions, hence the small concentrated areas such as the Coalfields based on real Coal mine distribution on the map. This gives a strategic twist to his maps. The abundant supply makes it easy to make a profit from them, but also makes collection easy for shipping to other parts of the map. This is nice and he set his maps up well for this. The more complicated 1.06 industries like the Machine Shop almost need a decent supply to draw from to minimize using custom consists at a loss.

10 Quarries sounds like a lot, but an upgraded Furnace can process 16 nominal loads that sometimes stretches to over 20 in the right conditions (boom times, good profit margins). On maps such as this which are missing a crystal demand till 1910 when the Electronics Factory becomes available the drag of producing Crystals for nothing will weigh down the maximum output also.

Yes, demand for Crystals is a big problem. Demand for Rock also isn't that strong. Building the Furnace is the only way to get it. This could definitely be improved.

[sidekikd34]

OK, here's another question: Industries can turn 2 things into 1, i.e. 2 Lumber+ 1 Dye=3 Furniture. Can they turn 1 into 2 equally well? i.e. 2 Rock=1 Ceramics+1 Ingots? (I think TM has the Meat Packing Plant turning Livestock into Meat and a tiny bit of Hides or Fertilizer or something.) And then change the Electronics Factory to demand Ceramics the whole way, and either drop Crystals entirely, or come up with another independent industry stream? I don't quite understand the hex editing of bca files, or I would try it. I got the bty files ok, but don't get the bca.

edit: I looked in the book in front of me and found my answer. RYFM!

So what do you all think of that change?

[RulerofRails]

No. Two inputs can become one output, but not the other way round. I am not exactly sure what TM does to balance out the production of Meat versus Fertilizer. I haven't looked at the bca file. I do know that Hides are produced whether the Meat Packing Plant has a supply of Livestock or not. This leads me to believe that it has a supply function for Hides as well as the displayed conversion which never produces anything because the profit margin is atrocious. I have even built a Meat Packing Plant next to an upgraded Furniture Factory simply to supply Hides with no Livestock anywhere close by. This stretches my lumber further and increases profit.

[Blackhawk]

Industries can't produce 2 cargoes from the same production chain. Yes, the TM Meat Packing Plant makes hides and meat, but really it is 2 separate production chains. 1. Livestock = Meat, 2. Livestock = Hides. This is why sometimes in TM you may notice you're getting a lot of hides but not a lot of meat. It's not a big deal in TM, but it is essentially creating the problem of the furnace again. (Although in TM's case it's generally a little more balanced).

[sidekikd34]

RoR, ROFL! Way to scam the system! I'm full of ideas; apparently they're not very good.

[RulerofRails]

RoR, ROFL! Way to scam the system! I'm full of ideas; apparently they're not very good.

I like to explore all options available. TM does have a few honey spots in the industry model. Keep the ideas coming! If you don't try, you will never succeed!

Forget to mention, some map makers use small territories and an event for that territory with a destroy-all command to clear the path and then a build such and such an industry command. This works well, but it can waste a territory for no good reason. Re-placing pre-built industries isn't that much work. Virtually anyone who goes into the editor could first remove the old one from an install with the original buildings, then open it with the install with the new buildings and re-build them. Easy, no-fuss.

The TM Meat Packing Plant doesn't suffer from the same problem as the 1.06 Furnace. The reason being that no matter what it gets converted into, Livestock will always be used and demanded there. The Furnace has two totally separate conversions. If one side of the conversion is the same it will work. With the same output (standard 1.05 Textile Mill) the cheaper input will be favored but both will be consumed. With the same input (TM Oil Refinery) the more profitable conversion (chemicals) will mainly be used with a little output of the other (diesel). I must say that the TM Meat Packing Plant is really well balanced with Meat versus Fertilizer. My guess is the Meat and Fertilizer conversions are very similar profit wise.

The problem with the Furnace is that it will always try to use both of its conversions. Even when one is very unprofitable. It will then go into running at a loss slowdown. Enough to hurt, but not a real money pit. This grinds production of the profitable conversion down to a trickle. Given the original 1.06 lack of demand for Ingots, this was common. BH's small fix helps.

The bca file is pretty easy to understand. The second page of the "Hex Editing Building Planner Spread Sheet" by WP&P has a nice diagram. Basically there is some surrounding information and then a set of coordinates in the middle is duplicated with a few changes for each production recipe or supply/demand function. I managed to understand it ok. Well enough to add production increases to logging camps, mines, and quarries when they are supplied with Machinery. I didn't make final adjustments to output etc. but they work pretty well.

In the middle of this thread there are many ideas to potentially fix some of the cargo problems. One of these was to change Crystals into Silica. This could be used for glass and electronics manufacturing. Glass would potentially replace Ceramics and the Concrete Plant would become a simple Rock-Cement conversion. We sort of agreed on this, but it actually ends up leaving Rock as the new useless cargo. Everyone agreed that the Ceramics to Cement conversion was bad. We need all the ideas possible and then a consensus to try to gel everything together.

[sidekikd34]

Speaking of taking advantage of TM, I usually exploit the BioMass Hemp Plantation. The BioMass Plantations are the only buildable natural resources, and I can build Hemp out of nowhere, plunk down a Bio-Diesel Plant to boost production, throw a Paper Mill and Textile Factory or Explosives Factory along side, and BAM! Money!

About the fix, Blackhawk said the Church is supposed to demand 1 Ingots per year, but it shows 2 demand in the editor and scenarios.
I'm hugely in favor of changing Crystals to Silica, or Sand since the icon already is included in 106. In fact, I noticed today that 106 has a LOT of extra icons. Were they from PopTop, or the 106 development?

[RulerofRails]

Yes the Hemp Biomass is a real money maker. The Bio-Diesel Plant gives a x3 conversion. Combine half a load of Hemp with 1 of Petroleum gives another 2x conversion to Explosives. From 2.5 loads of Hemp you make 9 of Explosives with profit all along the line. You could build these all over the flat areas of a map, demand for Explosives being the only thing holding you back. Well done to spot this sweet spot! Some of the more serious scenarios have the Biomass Plantations disabled for obvious reasons. Personally, I find Pulpwood for Chemicals the most restrictive part of the TM industry chain. Of course, the Oil Refinery is a better source for Chemicals if there is enough Oil, but I never seem to quite have enough Chemicals.

I think the Church was originally 1 Ingot per year and later Blackhawk changed it to two. I don't know about the icons, but I think they probably were added for 1.06 in the hope of having more cargoes. (There is a limit by the way, and all the slots bar one are taken in 1.06. This last one has been reported to be buggy.) I don't know where you found them, but you could try checking if your 1.05 install has them.

[sidekikd34]

I found the icons in \Data\PopTopExtraContent\Cargo106.pk4, which is all stuff dated 2006 or newer, which means it's all 106 stuff. Pretty ambitious, coming up with all those extra cargoes! I missed the entire 106 development, only discovered this site a couple years ago. Anyway, there's a lot of good material to work from in those pk4's, and PopTop was kind enough to include the PK4Unpack/PK4Pack system for making train skins and logos.

[Blackhawk]

I actually dislike how the Biomass farms (hemp/corn) are buildable in TM. I disable them from any TM scenario I create because they can be exploited and simplify the production chains, and in one of my scenarios it required food to be hauled which meant if corn was easily available, the amount of cereal that could be created would be increased.

I think many of the cargo icons were created by Pure Al. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=396&start=30 But I think a couple were extras that didn't make the cut in RT3.

The Church ingot demand - It may very well be set at 2. I know I was going between 1 and 2. I may have went with 2 to see how well it worked and if it worked too well, it could be reduced to 1, or 1.5.

[sidekikd34]

Just read a bunch of milo's mostly-undecipherable notes from 106 development, and I have only one comment: HOLY CRAP THAT WAS A LOT OF WORK! I have a whole new appreciation for 106. Mental note to stop thinking things like "this seems like a rush to production not very well polished". Unbelievable effort involved, and by a pretty small team, it seems!

[sidekikd34]

Thinking about Crystals demand. Is there room to add a fractional demand to housing? Or retail?
edit: Better idea, if we're renaming Crystals to Sand, add demand to Construction Firm.

[RulerofRails]

Blackhawk, I like what you did disabling the Biomass farms in your scenarios. They should probably be way more expensive to build. Shortcuts are fun to discover, but I feel wrong about using them extensively.

sidekikd34, I appreciate what was done with 1.06. Those involved put in tons of effort. It was released before the industry skins were ready, and I am inclined to believe that the industry side wasn't tested enough. Milo decided to go ahead and release it with the industry guys adding their stuff later. There were plans to make a whole new game called Rail Mogul. Also there seems to have been some problems running 1.06 on Vista at that time. Eventually someone made the Vista fix and people could play it again. These things were not favorable to 1.06 and the smaller touches needed to finish it. (BTW, are you running the blurry textures fix? It can improve the graphics on some machines a lot.)

Adding Sand demand to the Construction firm and maybe even to the Oil well, works for me. About the houses, someone said that they have as many demands as possible. I don't know if this is because no more can be displayed, or because no more can be added period. This is why there was a suggestion to re-purpose and re-name some of the cargoes such as Toys, Cheese and Medicine. Ultimately those changes are more optional. What to do with Rock seems to be the main snag. BTW, I believe Rock was added because Cement was in RTII and people wanted it. You will notice that TM doesn't have it at all.

[sidekikd34]

I'm running 1.06 with Blackhawk's building fix, no other fixes, on Windows 7 Ultimate with no updates. Little p|r4cy issue with the guy that gave me Windows...

Play testing takes a long time, I'm just laying buildings out in the editor and building tracks to represent cargo flow. I see a cargo volume problem, compared to other industries. One Furnace, not upgraded, takes 8 supplies (4 Quarries, 4 Ore Mines) and 33!!! demands to operate properly. (1 Concrete Plant => 4 Construction Firms, 4 Machine Shops => 24 industry buildings) Cutting the output in half would be at least a start, IMHO, to get prices reasonable.

I'm going to suppose Ingots are any metals that aren't Steel or Aluminum (Copper, Titanium, specialty metals). I would not think they include gold or silver, so I would move the demand from the Church to the Construction Firm.

Here's a thought: Drop Oil from the Machine Shop, cut base production to (2 Steel +1 Ingots=3 Machinery). That reduces the demand needed to 3 industries each, which is better than 6 each. Cut base production of Furnace to (8 Rocks=>8 Ceramics & 4 Ore=>4 Ingots, which supplies 2 Machine Shops and a Construction Firm.

This would change the overall flow to this:

Code: Select all

4 Quarries   \                      /=> 1 Concrete Plant => 4 Construction Firms (in 4 Cities?)
                    => 1 Furnace <
2 Ore Mines /                      \=> 4 Machine Shops => 12 industries
                                            \=> Or 4 Construction Firms, combinations possible.