Greece 1857: for testing

[Hawk]

After reading BH's post above I realized I just wasn't getting a good seeding, so I kept loading the map until I got the munitions plant in Athens, without the weapons factory.
Now it looks like I'm off to a decent start.

Edit 1: Oh well. Still couldn't get VP2.

BTW Bruno. Don't make any changes to the map based on my experience. Then it will be too easy for others.

[OilCan]

Brunom:
I'd be glad to test the game. Sounds like an interesting, but tough game. Will have to wait until next week. I'm moving my parents from South Texas to a retirement home in Kentucky - closer to me- over the next week.
I'm back from an extended work assignment to the Gulf Coast but leaving again. After moving my parents, hope to regain a more regular lifestyle...which includes getting back to RT3 games!

[Blackhawk]

Hawk I have recently tried the start of the map a few times to see what other kind of seedings I get. I think the best option may be if there is just a tool and die in Athens and no other industry demanding steel there. Then before you even start the game build the short length of track between Piraeus and Athens. (I used a medium and large station). Then take out a bond and issue stock twice. In both of these starts this would result in enough money to buy the tool and die. Then hopefully you still have enough money to buy a locomotive, although it might not be the Crampton. I think I could have bought the textile mill once but then I wouldn't have had enough money to buy a locomotive, and while the textile mill may be the most profitable long term, or at least the most consistent in its profits, the tool and die seemed to give out higher profits early, until the price for steel started to increase on the map.

Then depending on how your game seeds probably depends on what you do from there, but I bought the fruit orchards south/southeast of Athens and I paid off the bond I took out at 11% (from some profits + issuing stock). Then in 1859 my economy improved and my company was more stable so I was able to take out 2 bonds at 9%, and I issued some stock and built a distillery out by the fruit orchards.

If you issue too much stock though it'll make it difficult to accomplish VP#8.

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Brunom as for VP6 I thought about the city-city condition being open to more "cheating" but with the requirement of a the track pieces in the territory, it seems counter-intuitive to connect the cities, but then also randomly build ~500 pieces of track in the territory and not have them connect to anything. If they cities connected but didn't go through the coastal territory you could always have a message appear saying you've connected the cities but not via the coast and still must build the coastal route.

As you say it would also seem a little awkward to have to use a second company to build this connection, especially if you had to start the company with your own funds and then have to switch back to the first company to continue the rest of the scenario. In my case I owned so little of my company stock it would have been highly unlikely that I'd be able to retake control over it.

The only thing I could think of maybe using a second company for in the scenario may be to do something in Macedonia. Possibly creating the railroad from Thessaloniki to Constantinople (in this case just the eastern edge of the map of Macedonia).

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Oilcan - I had noticed you weren't around much lately, I guess that explains why. Good luck with the move.

[Hawk]

The munitions plant didn't work out too well once the game seeded a tool & die in Athens. Also that seeding didn't produce the produce (now there's some idiotic American English ) farm down near the shore.
I might have to try again until I can get a tool & die seeded at the start.

You're right about the textile mill. If you buy that you don't have enough money left over to do much of anything else, and I doubt it would build enough profit to be able to achieve VP1.

So far, in my experience, the distillery, brewery, ammunition plant, weapons factory, and textile mill have been a waste of time for the first 2 VP events.

[Hawk]

In reference to VP6, how do you know how many track pieces you've laid? Do you have to count them as you lay them?
I made that connection but I'm not getting credit for it. I'm guessing it's because of the same reason you mentioned; I didn't use 550 track pieces.

So far I'm doing a lot better, thanks to BH's tip on the tool & die. Here's where I am in Jan. 1880. No outstanding bonds and 44 trains.

Greece2.jpg (31.43 KiB) Viewed 4287 times

[Blackhawk]

You've definitely connected to more cities than I did. Mainly you've connected most of the Peloponnese like the image Brunom posted earlier in this thread. I thought about connecting it but never really got around to it.

For VP6 I'm guessing either 1. you're under 550 track pieces (you'd either have to randomly lay some more track along the coast to see if you eventually get that point, or add # of track pieces in territory to display in the ledger for that event) or possibility 2. You have to build a station along the coast somewhere in that territory as right now the event tests for "city connected to territory" so it needs a station in that coast territory.

[Hawk]

OK! I wasn't sure if there was any way to check # of track sections other than what you said.

The VP to haul weapons got me messed up since it seems to be testing wrong. To get it to work as is, steel is hard to get to a weapons plant in Thessaly. I had about 35 troops hauled out of Thessaly but can't get any weapons built to haul out.
I realize the troops and weapons are supposed to be hauled in but I was trying to make it work as is.

I think I'll wait until Bruno corrects the couple of things that need correcting.

[Blackhawk]

I got around the problem with Thessaly by building the weapons outside of Athens (a branch route so no other trains would steal the lumber) and I brought lumber down from Trikala. Then I had a train with weapons start off towards Volos, but as it was in transit I directed it to Larissa first, then to Volos. I didn't have a weapons factory spawn anywhere so I had to build my own. For me as long as a weapons factory outside of Athens was supplied with lumber it was very profitable.

You may also be able to build a weapons factory in Patria (maybe Nafpaktos would work as well) and supply it with lumber from the Thessaly region with several trains. The port in Nafpaktos, though if it appears, will use up much of the lumber that is brought in so you'll have to bring in a large amount of lumber. Then send a train with weapons from Patria to Trikala or Larissa before going to Volos. Unlike weapons built in Athens, weapons built in Patria may have a low enough price that they can be sent almost anywhere in Thessaly for a profit. On my seed the price of weapons in Patria was very low, so I'd place a weapons factory, upgrade it, and sell it right away as it'll likely operate at a loss.

[brunom]

I have corrected all of the minor faults you guys found while testing - again, your help is sooo appreciated!

VP6 isn't triggering for you, Hawk, because it's poorly programmed. If you want it to trigger, you need to make a station (small is enough) somewhere along the coastline. Then, if the track count doesn't suffice, add some random spikes. Otherwise, just ignore that and remember you're testing a beta.

The same goes for the VP concerning troops and weapons. In the posted version it's counting troops and weapons hauled FROM Thessaly (don't confuse with Thessaloniki) instead of counting hauls TO. Next version will, of course, have this corrected.

I want to add a couple more VP's for the last years, but original ideas are yet to pop to mind.. Maybe another IP goal.. Maybe a YTD overall cargo haul... Maybe a YTD overall passenger traffic.. Maybe making coal mines in Chalkidis pop 50 years before historical date and have the player haul some Coal... That's why I'm refraining from publishing already a reviewed version - I want it to come out with these extra 2 VP opportunities.

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As for my concerns with VP6. I have now programmed it to check City to City and over 450 pieces of track. This raises one issue though. If the player already has Patrai and Corinth connected via another line further south, the event for completed VP may pop up before the coastline track is actually completed. This will happen only if he "de-selects" the track building tools with over 450 pieces, but it will look silly!
I like elegant, simple and 100% effective solutions for my programming (any kind of programming), so I'm still not satisfied with the current solution and will continue to fiddle with it!

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BM

[Hawk]

Could you maybe add a small town (Akrata seems about at the half-way mark) in that hidden territory between Corinth and Patrai and then set the event for city connect to city (Patrai to [small town]) and city connect to city ([small town] to Corinth) and have the message say to connect Patrai to Athens via [small town], or something like that?

BTW! I think some of the VP's are too easy. For the passenger haul I had about 64, and in 1890 I already had 35 troops hauled, and I ended up with 25 cities connected towards the 16 required.
Maybe make the VP requirements a little harder or set the events to award the VP when the current requirement is reached?
As BH mentioned, when the barracks are generated, there sure is an awful lot of them. Looking at the event it should only be one each at 4 locations. I think the reason for all the extras is because you have that effect to run in the ledger event. Maybe have the main event (VP Opportunity #4 & 5) set that effect.
If the event only generates one barrack at each location, then the haul 5 troops might be more reasonable.

Also, the PNW may be a bit too hard. For my personal play style, if there's no PNW mentioned at the start, I don't even mess with my stocks, other than issuing stock for more money. I didn't get that far in the scenario but that $7.5 mil may be unreachable if the only stock you have is what you originally owned, plus any splits.
Maybe a brief mention that a PNW may be needed for a VP in the briefing, or in any early message.
Just a thought.

As for extra VP's at the end; I don't know about others but I would appreciate it if you didn't make a speed goal one of them. I hate those speed goals.

Basically, once I got a good seeding at the start of the scenario, I have enjoyed this map. The key is getting the right seeding. As it stands, there's really only one seeding that will work (at least for me) and that required several re-starts.

Click on images below for full size.

[OilCan]

Brunom: I downloaded your BETA2, but it sounds like you have a BETA3 in the works. If you post your BETA3 on this thread I will download it next week when I return home.

[brunom]

Hawk

I like your idea of adding Akrata, even if it doesn't solve the problem.

The problem is how the game checks city-to-city connection. Suppose a player already has a Corinth-Megalopolis-Patrai line laid down. Then he goes on and starts laying track along the coastline for the VP. He starts at Corinth and goes the half-way to Akrata. Once he places the station Akrata->Corinth turns True, and because Corinth->Patrai is already True (via inland path) then Akrata->Patrai becomes True as well.
By this time there are about 200 to 250 pieces of track laid in the coastline. With the VP in mind, the player continues the line to Patrai... 250 pieces, 300 pieces, 400 pieces, 450 pieces. POP! The message saying the VP is awarded comes up... He will be confused.. Patrai is still a curve or two away..

I don't like it and I can't think of a way to avoid this.

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As for the VP's.. if you guys could please tell me what you think of these two:

- Both pop in 1900:

(1) Have a yearly company income of over $8M, but Cargo and Passenger must have a weight of at least 70%. This will force the player to focus on railroading, possibly having to choose between keeping industries or selling them to raise liquidity to expand. The numbers for this, obviously, may need tuning.

(2) Own 50% of the shares.

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Last issue in my mind:

I am thinking of adding some "corruption effect" for the second half of the game, taking away some standing cash whenever it peaks over... say... $2.5 M
This would not be announced before hand, but it has a counter - once you've been "robbed by employees" some 10 times or so, you would, THEN, be informed.

Thoughts on this?
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OilCan, I hope I can issue BETA 3 this weekend.

BM

[RayofSunshine]

You guys have left me in the dust, as I have just completed 1864 for the $2+M in LIP.
However, it's a comment on the 1st VP1.
The year end "ledger" or a notice just previous, states that I have obtained a VP. But then in Jan, it so states that I "failed to haul the demanded commodities to an from Preaous".
NOW, I don't know how that is possible, AS the Port "demands clothing". I watched in a test, that the port supplies "cotton", which is hauled to the Textile Plant in Athens, and thereby clothing is hauled back in return.
AS to the new LIP request, I checked the Meal Packer which has a $2.2M tag, the Textil PLant $5.9M, and even the inital revenue, and 2 bonds, the total is less than the $2.2M. Hence a good industry is the Tool & Die at $1.4M.
SO just to make sure that I made the initial connection of Athens/Preaous, I was able to """just""" make the purchase with 2 bonds. I upgraded it a couple of years later with my revenue, and a bond. Nip and Tuck, but it took some planning.
NOW, with the access to Poly and Greece, are there VPs with this version, as they were not in the initial version?

[Hawk]

The problem I can see with trying ti get 50% of the shares that late in the game is that if you aren't playing the stock market all along, other than issuing stock, it would be extremely difficult to gain 50% if you only have 8 or 10,000 shares and investors have 2 or 300,000 shares.
The company income event sounds reasonable.

I do see what you're saying about the track issue along the coast. That's a tough one and I can't think of a way to get it to work right.
I will add though, that if you don't know that you have to have x amount of sections of track, then one may not lay track in such a way that the goal is achieved, as you can see in the screenshot I posted. I made the connection but I guess I didn't have 550 sections of track so I never got that VP.

The 'robbed by employees' event sounds rather dastardly. You would see your money going away but not know why, as in real life.

[Blackhawk]

I'd add the small town and using city connects to city or city connects to territory along with the # of track I'd create an event that checks at the end of the month or at the end of the year. This would likely prevent most cases of building track and getting over 450 pieces and then "pop" successful connection, as players will likely finish the connection by the end of the year unless they run out of money.

I suppose a more complicated way to do it would be to use several territories and variables to test against. A Territory outside of Patrai, Corinth, and Akrata (and/or just the territory along the coast). Then test and see if there are enough track pieces in each territory. If so variable + 1. Have the event then test to see if variable = 3 (or 4 or however many territories need to have track placed through them) as well as cities being connected. It may be more unlikely a player would try building from both directions and not finish the connection. Even if they did if you have a small zone outside of Patrai that tests to see if there are any track pieces around that final curve as well as the test along the cost it would be a little more accurate and less open to an accidental triggering of the event.

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(1) Have a yearly company income of over $8M, but Cargo and Passenger must have a weight of at least 70%. This will force the player to focus on railroading, possibly having to choose between keeping industries or selling them to raise liquidity to expand. The numbers for this, obviously, may need tuning.

Is that able to be tested in 1.05 ? I doubt the player would have to sell industries for liquidity as if they owned enough industries they'd probably have several million stored up. It would definitely complicate my style of play though as I think I was making about 8 million a year around 1890-1900 (I stopped expanding) but I'd say at least 5 million of it was from industries. What I could potentially see happening is selling off industry so you have less revenue from industry to create the 70-30% proportion.

(2) Own 50% of the shares.
To me this seems a lot like VP8 in that if you don't know about this early, you won't have much of a chance at getting it. And if you get VP8 you'll likely be able to get this point as well in that you'll likely already own a large portion of the company. If you do implement corruption I'd imagine that would then make this goal much easier to achieve. As once you know you're being stolen from you'll either buy more industries and lay more track, or buy back stock to reinvest the money rather than lose it to employees.

[RayofSunshine]

There are certainly some great suggestions and comments for this scenario. However, and I may be jumping the gun, but I have laid track along the coastline from Patrai to Corinth, which is connected to Athens in the shortest or as direct as I belileve possible. The only way that I could follow the coastline more direct, would be to build a bridge all the way between Patrai and Corinth. Have hauled 5-6 train loads of consist, but have not been awarded in the year end ledger with a VP for the effort. Everything else seems to be working as per programming. Especially that the system has not crashed, which is a plus.

[Hawk]

Ray - The issue about laying track along the coastline has been discussed in several posts in this thread.
As the event currently stands, if you don't lay at least 550 sections of track, you won't get credit for the connection.

The discussion about this involves making changes to the event.
Go back and read a few of the posts in this thread.

[brunom]

Hurray, we MIGHT have liftoff, in the VP6 issue! Building on your ideas, I'll try the following:

- Add Akrata (if for not other reason, just to encourage the player to lay the track and place population in a coastline that isn't supposed to be barren);

- Create a territory composed of multipe this north-south strips, some "3 or 4 track pieces" wide. These strips will be spread along the coastline. Because these strips are narrow and almost perpedicular to the track the player will lay, the count of track will be much more accurate;

- Create a deadline for this VP and not test completion before that.

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The "robbed by employees" will definitely be implemented (you're mixed reactions are just what I expect from the player!! )

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I'm still divided about what to use for VP11 and VP12... More on this later

B

[RayofSunshine]

Guess I missed, or misunderstood the 500+ required track lay. Will have to wait until a solution, as I don't do very well at counting the track cells.
It took a few years for Athens to recognize that Larissa, Volos, and Trikala needed TROOPS. Once that happened, there was a good flow, and the quota+ was made.
Have run into another problem. In 1895 I unloaded 5 weapons at Volos. No credit. Then in 1896 I unloaded 10 more weapons at Larissa. I got credit to """1""". My lumber is coming from Trikala, and the steel is coming from Athens, with a Weapons Plant at Marousi(east of Athens) A good flow, but takes time and a number of engines.
There isn't any way that I can get the $7.5M in PNW. Back a few years I ran into a session of Recessions and a Depression, of which depleted all my stock.
To this point I have only accummulated 5VPs.
The plus is that I have not encountered any system crashes.

[Blackhawk]

Ray the beta map counts weapons/troops FROM the Thessaly territory rather INTO it. So that's why you've sent weapons there and it's had no effect. You may want to try sending them to Larissa and then from there haul them to Volos.

As for the Patria-Cornith line you have to have 550+ pieces of track but you also have to have build a station on the coast as well between the two cities. If you build a small station and still don't get credit, build some more track along the coast so you'll build enough track to satisfy the track requirement.