4-8-4 Northern

[Lone Cat]

I've played every Age of Steam series scenario and the creator, W. Sherrick wrote that the 4-8-4 Northern steam locomotive is dual-purpose road engine-- capable of highspeed passenger services and heavy fast freights. the Wiki said otherwise, that the 4-8-4 is not a good freight choices (for medium-sized steamers?) why? I don't think it's a bad design at all! 4 wheels in leading trucks for highspeed, eight coupled powers, and four wheeled trailing trucks supporting an extremely efficient large fireboxes (and if the locomotive has been optimized by post-war modern steam technologies, it can outperform any Diesels of the same size and class), so what's the flaw of it?
1. In RT3, the default 4-8-4 Northern is modelled after real life SP GS series Daylights. the tender seems to be fictional because SP rarely uses coal-firing, every GS class locomotives run on No.6 fuel oil, so who else in the US also uses the coal-firing 4-8-4 with the same casings as the Daylights?
its stats appears to be 'mountain king' though, which fits the 4-8-4s of the eastcoast RR instead :P
or can you say otherwise? that the RT3 4-8-4 Northern was modelled after a streamliner owned by someone else but not Southern Pacific?
2. if one said that the 4-8-4 is not a good freight hauler, so what else does he/she compares the 4-8-4 with? except the Mallets.
3. Does the GS5 (??) "Black Daylight" (built under wartime restrictions to not be a streamliner) dual purpose as Sherrick said?


^ The default 4-8-4 Northern from RT3, it looks alot like Daylight but the 'owner' appears to be an RR based on the Midwest and Eastcoast not SP
the paintscheme appears to be ones of modern day Caltrain

^ Southern Pacific GS class 4-8-4 Daylight, one of the last steams bought by SP, before GM salesman approached SP execs to convince them to buy F-unit instead.... there are 'ugly' diesel daylights too! hood unit diesels painted in Daylight scheme hauling the passenger train with the same name. mew!

[Gumboots]

Well in scenarios that offer the Northern, I've often used it for mixed and freight haulage, as well as express. I've found it to be reliable, with good pulling power, and capable of sustaining good speeds.

I'm not sure why anyone would say it wasn't good for fast freight. That's not to say it would necessarily be the cheapest freight loco available, so if someone was trying to minimise costs then others options may be a better choice.

I'd make the choice based on which other locos were available, and what the game aims were.

[Lone Cat]

Here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-8-4#Demise

Demise

The big wheeled 4-8-4 was at home on heavy passenger trains and quite capable of speeds over 100 miles per hour (160 kilometres per hour), but freight was the bread and butter of the railroads and in that service the Northern had limitations. The adhesive weight on a 4-8-4 was limited to about 60% of the engine's weight, not including the dead weight of the tender. Henry Bowen, the Chief Mechanical Engineer of the Canadian Pacific Railway (CPR) from 1928 to 1949, recognized this and after testing the first two CPR K-1a Northerns introduced by his predecessor, he designed a 2-10-4 Selkirk using the same boiler. The resulting T-1a Selkirk locomotive had the same number of axles as the Northern, but the driving wheels were reduced from 75 to 63 inches (1,905 to 1,600 millimetres) in diameter, while the additional pair of driving wheels increased the tractive effort by 27%. In a later variant, Bowen added a booster to the trailing truck, enabling the big Selkirk to exert nearly 50% more tractive effort than the similar sized K-1a Northern.

However, when it was demonstrated that a three-unit EMD F3 diesel electric consist that weighed a little less than the total engine and tender mass of a CPR K-1a Northern could produce nearly three times its tractive effort, even new Super Power steam locomotives were retired as quickly as finance allowed.

But the default Northern 4-8-4 while it looks like SP GS class Daylights, its aesthetic follows "Golden State" description, while its performance strictly follows "General Service". Wiki said that Northern suits Passenger trains better.

but I don't think so! Sherrick said that Northern IS dual-purpose locomotive, he even compared the 4-8-4 of the Streamline era with the 4-4-0 American of the Wild West era. that Northern 4-8-4 is American 4-4-0 of the 30s. in the last scenario of the Age of Steam series, the Phoenix Rising, if player choose to reintroduce modern steam in 2020 (started with Chinese QJ), player can have access to various (and modernly optimized) 4-8-4 , including the Northern (but no GS Daylights!). Citing that if someone is to reintroduce the Modern steam into regular railroad service. the 4-8-4 SHOULD BE considered first.
Too bad, several optimizations come just too late to prevent EMD F units to become the Modern 4-4-0 Americans. when the war is over, every RR in the US bought F-series, and Alco--who excels in Steam, had to go Diesels to survive to this day.

It is said that even a single standard 4-8-4 Northern can easily outperforms a full sets of 3 or 4 F units Diesel Electrics. correct?

[Hawk]

Why are you trying to compare the locos in RT3 to real world statics?
This is just a game.

[Lone Cat]

^ yes it's just a game but I need real world statistics so I could import some locomotives ignored by the developers into the game. (such as Garrats, also Mallets shown up too late! earliest Mallets in the North America appeared in 1907), and calculate its in-game statistics to match it.

so Hawk.
1. Do you like the RT3 standard Northern 4-8-4 to looks like Espee GS Class Daylights? (but wears Caltrain paint schemes instead :P )
2. And do you think the Northern 4-8-4 is a worthy competitor against GM F-Units?

[Hawk]

so Hawk.
1. Do you like the RT3 standard Northern 4-8-4 to looks like Espee GS Class Daylights? (but wears Caltrain paint schemes instead :P )
2. And do you think the Northern 4-8-4 is a worthy competitor against GM F-Units?

When playing RT3, those kind of issues aren't that important to me.
It's just a game. It wasn't designed to match real world counterparts.

[Wolverine@MSU]

It's just a game. It wasn't designed to match real world counterparts.

True, but if you're developing a historical scenario, and are driven by "realism" it can become an important issue. While RT3 is just a game, it CAN be much more than that, and can become a "teaching tool" on the history of railroad development, and its impact on civilazation as we know it.

[Lone Cat]

And what contributes to its superior 'stability' over the 4-4-4, 4-6-4 and 4-10-4 ? meow.