Rails & Riches

[Viconius]

Hey guys!
So, the time has come. I'm laying it out here at FED and Hawk & Badger. I'll probably pimp my warez on some of the Steam forums but not right now.

My name is Franz Felsl, I worked at PopTop during most of it's existence; as well as other places too. While the other places are important, I'm going back to my roots, or at least trying too. Strategy games. A hated and unaccepted word by most large publishers. Some of you guys have talked with me before while at PopTop and others since. I've been milling the idea to do a spiritual successor to RRT series for a long time and now's the time for my friends and I to give it the old college try. I say SPIRITUAL SUCCESSOR because I'm not cloning RT and I have no rights to the title. I only claim the right to want to play a good railroad game. If I can't play one, I have to try and build one. I've heard others here say that before too so I know I'm not alone.

Our team has started a new company called Combine Games and the game Rails & Riches.
Here's some links:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Rails-Ri ... &ref=br_tf
Twitter: https://twitter.com/RailsAndRiches
Also I'm adding a link to our Kickstarter Page as a Preview
Rails&Riches : http://kck.st/1AXOhrv
It's only a PREVIEW, some more art is coming to replace a few things. However the information is there and it will give you a pretty good idea of what we'll be doing. We're hoping to get it up live next Wednesday 27th. Yeah, we need a lot of money but we're trying to be real honest and upfront about it and what we plan on doing. We're not new at this and what it costs is what it costs. We'll see how the chips fall.

If you want to put money in at the Kickstarter, great! That's not the main reason I'm here however. I'm here to ask your help in spreading the news however best you can. The railroad gamer community is pretty connected even if it's not a huge online presence and we'd love to have you let your contacts know we're around. Feel free to shoot me some questions, Like us at FB and let publishers know you're here.

[obertran]

Very good initiative. I'll be happy to give you a hand if I can.

[Gumboots]

Sounds interesting. I've read the preview page and will be looking forward to more detail. The devil is in the detail, as the saying goes.

[Blackhawk]

Good luck to the project. It's about time another decent railroading game makes it out. We'll see how it turns out. I know while many like the steam era, I prefer the diesel era. Well good luck and hopefully a good game gets released. Many of these kickstarter games have been released and called a final version when it should really still have been in beta.

[Viconius]

Thanks guys. To be sure, we are only launching with steam locomotives. However, the platform we make will allow us to add new assets without constant overhauls and provide some consistency. I'd love to have electric and diesel at launch but it would be something of a financial bridge to far. How much time after launch is more dependent on funding.

[Gumboots]

Being able to add new assets (comparatively) easily would be immensely helpful for popularity and durability, IMO. It's one of RT3's downfalls. The RT3 team did implement some of the ideas they wanted to include, but were constrained by time and budget. For what it's worth, my 2c goes like this:

If you are going to be primarily concerned with online multiplayer,I think you would be more inclined to concentrate on the eye candy side and less on the built-in strategic side, since with multiplayer all or most of the strategic side is automatically dealt with by the human players.

If you want the game to have a solid standing as a solo player RTS, with AI additions when required, it would be helpful to build in as much scripting flexibility as possible. RT3 is quite good in this respect, but anyone who has tried to think up new scenarios for it has probably run into scripting limitations that can severely limit a scenario author's options. One of my pet peeves with RT3 is that many of the game-wide options would be much more useful if they were also selectable as company-specific or territory-specific. One example out of many would be locomotive availability by company or territory, to add greater realism and/or challenge. So, I'd be putting a lot of thought into which scripting limits you feel you cannot avoid, and how many options you can reasonably add before the bloat starts scaring you badly.

The next thing with RT3 is the horrible way that WIP maps degrade when saved. This is just ludicrous and it really should never have been done that way. It make map creation far more tedious than it needs to be, and/or finished quality lower, so a non-lossy algorithm is definitely going to be desirable for any WIP maps. The final version could still be compressed if necessary, but I'd say it's essential that there is a WIP save option that is not compressed.

Regarding adding assets: it would be immensely helpful if the required modelling could be done via open source apps. Expecting hobbyists to outlay thousands of dollars on closed source modelling apps is really going to out the screws on. If anyone can model and import assets for the cost of a six pack or less, you'll have far more community interest and therefore a far wider variety of assets. This would mean you could release with just a basic steam roster and have the gaming community expand it to suit themselves, without requiring immense costs for the core dev team.

I'd be inclined to build in a far greater range of slots for assets, and cargoes, than you initially think you need. The slots don't have to be used by default, but it'd be good to have them so the game can be expanded without needing to hack the exe. If you do a really good job of the basics, just like RT3 people will always end up pushing the limits further than you thought possible when you were coding the original. Allowing room for this would be good for longevity.

The other thing is that for solo RTS I think it would be essential for the game to be able to run without an online connection to Steam. If it's cloud-based by default, that will definitely limit interest IMO.

You may well have thought of this stuff already, but I thought it was worth putting out there. Most people here have flogged RT3 to death, and are well aware of all its limitations and bugs, and have given a fair amount of thought to how it could be improved. If you make the mistake of asking for input here, you're unlikely to lack for it.

[RulerofRails]

I agree with Blackhawk and Gumboots on the above. Furthermore, a new railroad game could potentially be so much more than RT3 was and even more than the persistent individuals around here have improved it to be. I don't know how closely you keep an eye on this site, but in case you missed some things, may I suggest you take some time to see what has been done with a mod un-friendly game?

Don't know if you ever tried 1.06, but the few features that were painstakingly added may be worth noting, even if you don't have time to play maps. Trainmaster is a little more complex for the novice but some of the small selection of scenarios available have really pushed the potential of the events available.

Regardless of these "patches/mods", you may be impressed with the way Gumboots has built RT3 models from scratch just using a hex editor. I would also recommend you try some of the scenarios that have been made for the game especially those made by Oilcan which aren't solely for fanatics but remain a fun game while adding more strategy to the original gameplay. One of my favorites he has made is Yellowstone. I realize that it may be hard to see everything clearly in a short time, but don't hesitate to ask for good examples of how the game has been taken to the next level. Think of it as research.

As I know you worked on RT3, I am really curious if there was an algorithm used to determine how fast a companies' economic growth could occur? It seems to be almost exponential, and I am really interested in how you built that? If you are not at liberty to reveal this, maybe you would share how you are planning to handle the company economic growth model in the new game?

I like to think that I have gotten within sight of some of the limits of standard company growth in the RT3 economic model. If you look at some of the forums, you will see that the majority of scenarios I can complete in half the time or less, including many so-called "difficult" ones. Striving for my companies' economic growth has almost become 3-dimensional for me, with time coming into play a lot. This involves time-till-return for every dollar I spend (investment), and really supercharges the way that train revenues can help fund growth. In RT3, a train's main purpose is to eliminate price imbalances on the map. By timing new expansion of my rail network to wait for, and then take advantage of as many consecutive imbalances as I can, I end up doing better financially from rails than industry as long as a map isn't resource poor. Maybe this sort of play wasn't intended when RT3 was programmed? Nevertheless, it has kept me entertained for hours seeking improvements and "discovering" an algorithm for absolute growth that is so amazingly complex that I could never hope to actually figure out except as I experience it. I hope that your new game has aspects for discovery within it, that don't seem like holes to the average player, but will allow dedicated fans to discover great, intricate possibilities that are actually the best way to play the game and grow your company. By contrast, RTII and Railroads! don't have such a complex layer in their economies. I have always felt that these growth models are more linear, in the sense that an average person could with some effort work out all that is occuring and make an algorithm to solve the best possible way to play the game.

Thanks for your time, and good luck with the new game!

[Hawk]

The other thing is that for solo RTS I think it would be essential for the game to be able to run without an online connection to Steam. If it's cloud-based by default, that will definitely limit interest IMO.

This has been one of my main gripes about new games. Having to buy it from Steam. I won't. Period. I have a Steam account but never use it anymore. I don't even have it installed.
I can understand developers wanting to go through Steam. It makes distribution easier and advertises to a larger community, but the Steam implementation on the user end is not user friendly - IMHO.

My experience with Steam was with Railworks, now called TS2015, not to be confused with the Auran Trainz. One of the problems was if you did any editing in your instal of the game, the next time Steam updated the game it would overwrite any edits you did.

There's several problems with the game that are directly the cause of Steam. One is not being able to play if you have an iffy Internet connection. A lot of the problems related to Steam can be read about at TrainSim.com and RailworksAmerica.com (a site I built and eventually turned over to someone else due to my lost interest in the game because of Steam and the game itself)

Then there's the fact that Steam can close your account for any reason, whether legitimate or not - like having your account hacked (which happens more than people are aware), with basically no chance of getting it back. Hence losing the ability to play any games bought through Steam.

A lot of people love Steam. A lot hate it. I don't believe there's a middle road on the issue.

[AMD 103]

Very cool project. I do hope you succeed. The only really good railway-related game as of late is Train Fever. (Now on GOG!) It's got more of a Transport Tycoon Flavor though....

Reading the posts on the Terminal, I appreciate that you might be going for more of a RT2 flavor.

There's one thing that bugs me though, and I know it's not final, but the art style seems too artsy. It doesn't have a good grasp on reality. I'd like the locomotives to be blue-print based.

I'd like it tied much closer to the real thing...







Bunch of Howard Fogg paintings for reference.

If you guys need help, I've got access to a library of GN/NP locomotives. I also have two high-quailty HO scale steam locomotive models of the correct era. (Both USRA designs.)

[Lone Cat]

May this new Railroad bizsim reaches its destination ON TIME

=^.^=

[AT41B]

Like Hawk, Blackhawk, Gumboots, and RoR, I have a dislike for any games that REQUIRE you to be connected to the Steam game site. I am in a geo location that is not always accessible to the internet and can not play the games that require a Steam account. I am an amateur that likes to edit an existing map and save it to replay later, but come to find out that Steam has set my edits back to the original game. Its MY game, I bought it off the shelf. But then come to load it on my computer, I had to join Steam and more or less ask them IF I could play it.
So, if "Rails & Riches" is released thru Steam, I will not buy it.

[Gumboots]

Yeah it'd be no good at all to have Steam screwing around with your settings or edits. Ditto for creating and importing new assets. If that can't be done without going through Steam, I'd regard that as a major PITA. People should be able to make their own and share them, without jumping through extra hoops.

[Hawk]

To the best of my recollection, you can add new maps, rollingstock, etc, and Steam won't mess with it. If you change any of the default files in any way though, Steam will revert them back to default.

[Hawk]

I believe that if Rails & Riches were developed in such a way as to make it possible to buy it from Steam and then copy the whole Rails & Riches installation folder to another location on your computer, outside of the Steam installation, and be able to run it from there without requiring Steam, then it might not be so bad.

Personally, I still don't like Steam but for others that can tolerate Steam it might be OK.

[Gumboots]

Yeah that might work.

[Blackhawk]

Some of my recent purchases have been games off humble bundle and occasionally they have games that you can download on steam or download the DRM free version. Obviously a direct download that doesn't require Steam is preferable.

[Lone Cat]

Sounds promising. I hope that the 'auto consists' feature in RT3 showns up here too!

Will there be the oil-firing Southern Pacific Cab Forward steamers in this game?

[Viconius]

Hey guys,
We are using Steam for a few reasons, let me list them here quickly:
- Distribution of launched game
- Distribution of DLC
- Management and Distribution of player created content
- Feedback and metrics
- Cost of these things is LOWER than traditional publishers and distribution channels
- Steam has a rather high concentration of PC gamers

They aren't perfect by any means, but for us it has the best combination of features we need. That said, we know that some companies don't go through enough steps to manage content well on Steam which can cause issues with how Steam handles information associated the game. Hopefully, you'll get to know Darrin our CTO. At the risk of inflating his head, he's really a top notch data and software architecture guy. He's also a gigantic open source advocate. Our goal is to make use of the Steam option to play off-line as much as possible. As for things like Mac and Linux, we are open to it, but it'll really depend on getting funding beyond our initial ask.

If Steam is an absolute NO for you guys, I'm REALLY sorry. I very much want you guys involved even if it's not as backers. We'll do what we can to make it possible, but right now, we can't afford to build Steam's infrastructure and R&R's too.

[Gumboots]

It's not an absolute no for me personally, providing that a/ I can play offline without a connection to Steam and b/ Steam does not screw around with anything I edit in my installation and c/ I can make stuff and use it without having to jump through Steam's hoops and d/ even if Steam cancels my account for whatever reason, I can still play the game I bought and e/ as part of d/ I can still import new assets whenever I feel like it.

If playing the game offline, even after a Steam account had been cancelled, is not going to be possible then I would not be interested. If I can't import assets without going through Steam, I would not be interested. If Steam screws around with any of my edits or settings, I would not be interested.

Basically, people here are used to RT3's ability to import and change stuff without anyone screwing your around over it. Naturally, we would like more freedom, not less. On the other hand, I quite understand where you are coming from. Hopefully it will be possible to come up with something that makes everyone (or almost everyone) happy.

ETA: I suppose the short version is that personally I wouldn't care if you chose to distribute your stuff via Steam, as long as anyone else (meaning me) doesn't have to rely on Steam for anything once the game has been purchased.

[Viconius]

Gumboots, I think at this moment the one aspect that may cause an impasse would be the sharing of player content at least during development. I'm not certain at this point if it will be possible to collect assets from multiple locations. However, it will be an early issue as we go forward. We've set up projects on Steam before but never had a big a content load for post launch assets. We'll do what we can, I promise.