Cargo & Industry fixes for 1.06

[Blackhawk]

We'll have to give them some beans to go along with the rice they can eat! Although in actualitly, my diet is largely milk, meat, rice, and produce, with some cheese and cookies thrown in.

Apparently in Wisconsin, the trains haul cheese!


I can understand not going too broad with some of the things, but other cargoes I think would be fine broadening. While cheese is good, food allows for multiple industries to produce it. Which can be a good and bad thing.

But I agree with you in that I don't think the terms should be too broad, particularly if they are used in the creation of another cargo. A rough example: A cannery could be using Exotic goods/spices/food + steel/aluminum = food. If that were the case, I might stick with coffee as then that makes more sense to me seeing it's producing cans of coffee, which will be marketed as food. Where as, if I think of exotic goods as pepper, it would be more difficult thinking of packaged pepper as a food. Obviously not a perfect example, but just a rough possibility.

[Stoker]

A correction of something I see being assumed here: The addition of new industries that can bolster production of certain scenario required cargoes (like Cheese) in this patch will not change scenarios at all. The reason I say this is because any new industries do not automatically get added to existing scenarios. In order for them to appear in any existing scenario would require opening it in the Editor and manually enabling the new industry. If someone wants to do this and they see an issue with a certain cargo being produced at a higher rate than the original scenario was based on they can change the scenario goals or production rates, particularly if they intend to add new industries to the scenario and then distribute it.

P.S: I hope that the last car in that Cheese Train is Ex Lax, or at least Coffee!! Hopefully some sado-masochist did not slip in a car full of popcorn to be eaten with all that Cheese as well!!

[Blackhawk]

Right. I knew that from dealing with 1.05 to 1.06 to TM....but for some reason, it slipped my mind and I assume the worst possible outcome. For some reason I was speaking as if they may have gotten turned on and potentially become spawned by the game. I shouldn't happen, so it shouldn't be a problem.

[Gumboots]

By the way, who can currently see this board? I remember that this board used to be hidden from most people (Hawk gave me access at some point) and this is a topic where we really need maximum input. Is this board now visible to everyone? If it's not, perhaps the thread should be moved to an open board.

[Blackhawk]

I think this board is now open for all registered users to see as long as you are logged in.

[Gumboots]

Ok, cool.

[RulerofRails]

I just noticed this section as I have been checking for new messages without being logged on.

A correction of something I see being assumed here: The addition of new industries that can bolster production of certain scenario required cargoes (like Cheese) in this patch will not change scenarios at all. The reason I say this is because any new industries do not automatically get added to existing scenarios. In order for them to appear in any existing scenario would require opening it in the Editor and manually enabling the new industry. If someone wants to do this and they see an issue with a certain cargo being produced at a higher rate than the original scenario was based on they can change the scenario goals or production rates, particularly if they intend to add new industries to the scenario and then distribute it.

Well, does anyone know why Construction Plants show up on 1.05 maps when they are played in 1.06? This is the main thing that annoys me when I try to play 1.05 maps in 1.06. I have never been a big fan of them. To me they seem like a black hole. The idea is fine, but because they don't actually help to construct anything on the map they seem like a waste when they drag away and consume my processed cargoes.

Ceramics: The demand for Ceramics in most maps is actually pretty large, and I think there would be no problem as far as having Ceramics pile up, even if the Ceramics/Concrete production chain is changed. Many industries, and the Construction Firm demand Ceramics, and it is already a second tier cargo, so having it end here is not unacceptable. I can however, see an industry that would use Ceramics + something else to produce one of the higher priced cargoes like Luxury(ies) Goods, and perhaps replacing Crystals in the recipe for Electronics. I am open to suggestions for an industry or two along these lines.

I haven't found this "pretty large" demand for Ceramics. Which scenarios have a large demand for ceramics without the Concrete Plant? In my games the demand for Ceramics is far too low to be able to support the large output from the current furnace. The price is also too low (around $110-$130) for it to be more than marginally profitable to haul it to a demand as oversupply is a huge issue at some of these marginal demand factories.

I don't really like the idea of marginal demand. Especially in the modern eras it seems really unrealistic to be supplying an industry with a special consist train that demands one or less per year. I have a sneaking suspicion that supplying a Brewery or Distillery with Ceramics actually decreases the amount of profit I can make from it. (I tried to do a test for that right now, but I need to reload 1.06 as I messed up the install with the debug stuff and it's crashing now.) From a game-play perspective why would I want to do that?

Unfortunately, any industry/port that doesn't make decent money is borked. The Electric Plant is another good example (any plans for that?). Demand will not work right if the industry is not making money. If you guys like the Construction Plant, and want to keep it, how about increasing its demand to make it a better black hole for cargo that I don't have any better use for (ceramics)?

[Gumboots]

Must admit I've never really seen the point of the Construction Firm or the Electric Plant either.

[Stoker]

Many industries consume Ceramics, among them the Construction Firm, as you mention , ROR. The Construction Firm is classified as a "Municipal Building" and they spawn in cities along with the other buildings in this category like Churches and Schools. As far as which scenarios have a big demand for ceramics, I don't know. I also don't know of a scenario that has a big supply of Ceramics. In other words, the demand seems to be about right when compared to the supply in the scenarios I am aware of. Changing the Cement(Concrete) recipe will change things a bit, which is why I am investigating different options and looking for suggestions on the matter. Keep in mind that at this point I am exploring possibilities, and no changes or additions are set in stone as of yet. I can say that I have no intentions of altering the profitability of the Electric Plant, as this will change too many existing scenarios. I do have some ideas for that if I ever progress into a resurrection of King Coal, but that is way beyond the horizon right now.

[Blackhawk]

I don't really like the idea of marginal demand. Especially in the modern eras it seems really unrealistic to be supplying an industry with a special consist train that demands one or less per year. I have a sneaking suspicion that supplying a Brewery or Distillery with Ceramics actually decreases the amount of profit I can make from it. (I tried to do a test for that right now, but I need to reload 1.06 as I messed up the install with the debug stuff and it's crashing now.) From a game-play perspective why would I want to do that?

In a quick test, set up a test map with 2 breweries. 1 was supplied with grain, the other supplied with grain and ceramics. While the loads consumed at the 2nd brewery was a carload more, the profits (or lack there of in this case as I didn't make houses to increase demand) were only 2k off from each other. Obviously this was not a very in-depth test though.

The power plants are a handful in that getting them to produce at times can be difficult. Of course, it is very rare to even bother trying unless a scenario requires you to produce a certain amount of power.

[Gumboots]

Many industries consume Ceramics, among them the Construction Firm, as you mention , ROR. The Construction Firm is classified as a "Municipal Building" and they spawn in cities along with the other buildings in this category like Churches and Schools.

Fair enough then. I'd thought of it (CF) as an industry rather than as a municipal building. It makes sense as the latter.

[Stoker]

I don't really like the idea of marginal demand. Especially in the modern eras it seems really unrealistic to be supplying an industry with a special consist train that demands one or less per year. I have a sneaking suspicion that supplying a Brewery or Distillery with Ceramics actually decreases the amount of profit I can make from it. (I tried to do a test for that right now, but I need to reload 1.06 as I messed up the install with the debug stuff and it's crashing now.) From a game-play perspective why would I want to do that?

In a quick test, set up a test map with 2 breweries. 1 was supplied with grain, the other supplied with grain and ceramics. While the loads consumed at the 2nd brewery was a carload more, the profits (or lack there of in this case as I didn't make houses to increase demand) were only 2k off from each other. Obviously this was not a very in-depth test though.

The power plants are a handful in that getting them to produce at times can be difficult. Of course, it is very rare to even bother trying unless a scenario requires you to produce a certain amount of power.

So, if you factor in the profit from hauling the Ceramics to the second Brewery, it would then be producing more net profit for the company than the one which was not receiving Ceramics.

To answer the question posed by ROR: From a gameplay perspective, making more money is better.

[RulerofRails]

Ok, got my game working again and did a little test and it is obvious that Blackhawk is right. I wrongly thought that the used cargo would show up in the materials cost. Got confused with ports, sorry.

After studying a few saves, I noticed that many times a Furnace was doing poorly it was actually getting a trickle of Ore from far away. So making dedicated furnaces will solve some of the profitability issues I have had with them in the past. I don't know why the decision was made to have the furnace produce 8 per year, but when it only demands one input should it be scaled back to 4 per year? Was this someone's crude way of trying to fix the production issues?

Yes, I agree a company will make some money hauling the Ceramics to a Construction Plant, Brewery, or Distillery. I just don't feel I will have enough incentive (high enough ROI) to build a Furnace in too many games. Having Ceramics part of a second cargo chain at a Brewery such as 3 Grain + 1 Ceramic = 4 Alcohol, would increase my incentive to use it. Is it possible to do something like this without messing things up?

On the subject of names, what about something like Condiments instead of Exotic Foods? I know it isn't perfect, but have noticed that all the current cargoes have one word names. Then Packaged Foods could be just Food. Will two word names fit in places like the cargo list in the ledger or on some of the existing status pages?

[Gumboots]

Funnily enough I've just about always found furnaces to be a really good thing to build in 1.06 games. They always seem to make a good profit as long as they have enough raw material and as long as you can generate a demand for their output (ie: concrete plant or whatever).

[Hawk]

For whatever it's worth, I also like furnaces, but see no reason for a power plant.
Unfortunately a lot of arop's scenarios have power plant events. They don't have anything to do with the medals, but they're still in the scenario. I've always just ignore them myself.
I think I've seen one or two maps that require some sort of power plant production as part of a medal goal, but once I saw that I didn't bother playing that map.

I never paid that much attention to the construction firm, unless it was robbing other industries of deliveries. Then I'd just bulldoze it.

[RulerofRails]

My experience with Electric Plants is that they can be quite profitable, but they need to be supplied with both coal and oil and one of these needs to be cheap, (red or orange.)

Yes the furnace can be quite profitable too. Currently, when there is no Ore around they seem to pretty easily run profits above 25% of purchase price. I am still a little concerned about oversupply without the Concrete Plant, but I trust that the changes Stoker makes will not cause a problem.

[Stoker]

I intend to leave the existing Furnace intact because so many existing scenarios use it. Although the Furnace can make decent profits, it never functions as intended. It will generally make either one or the other output, not both, yet it demands both Ore & Rock so one or the other just piles up there, and it can be problematic to make it produce the output you really need. To deal with this issue, I am going to build two new industries to process Ore and Rock. One will be the Brick Kiln, using Rock+Coal=Ceramics, and the other a Smelter with recipe Ore+Coal=Ingots. I will most likely nix the idea of having both a small Smelter and an Industrial Smelter because there are so few open slots to use.

As far as making changes to the Brewery recipe, the answer is definitely no. Again: The overall goal of the changes I have in mind is to leave darned near all existing industries intact and add some new ones to tie up some loose ends in the production chain and add a little variety. The only existing industry I am considering changing right now is the Cement (Concrete) Plant, and whether this will work out as intended is not yet verified. One thing I can assure is that there will be no oversupply issue with any cargo with the changes made, more than likely the new industries will do the opposite by creating new demands that will leave players scrounging for raw materials to fill new demands. Regarding Power Plants, I agree that they are usually not profitable to build , but they are part of so many scenarios (usually as X Gigawatts of electricity enables Electric Locomotives or a price break for them) that they simply must remain.

Regarding names suggested by RoR: I am not keen on the Condiments name. Coffee and Tea are Condiments? No. Short two word names will fit, it has to do with the letter count, not whether there are two words or one. As for Food, I am actually considering calling it CannedFood. The name needs to describe the fact that this cargo has been processed and packaged . Please keep any ideas about cargo names and industries coming. I have shot down many dozens of my own ideas, so don't let that discourage you.

[Hawk]

By the way, who can currently see this board? I remember that this board used to be hidden from most people (Hawk gave me access at some point) and this is a topic where we really need maximum input. Is this board now visible to everyone? If it's not, perhaps the thread should be moved to an open board.

I think this board is now open for all registered users to see as long as you are logged in.

BH is correct. This board is now accessible by all registered users. It's still invisible to guests and bots though.

[Blackhawk]

I'm not a big fan of the condiments name either as it doesn't really seem to cover coffee/tea. Herbs&Spices seems semi-descriptive and more realistic for the region these coffee farms would generally appear in, but that too has a little bit of a stretch when thinking of coffee, although herbal tea may fall under that herb category. I'm not sure I'm a big fan of exotic foods either, if you're doing a scenario in the Caribbean, are exotic foods really exotic to you, or are they now common?

I'd think if you desire a descriptor for food, your initial use of Packaged is a better choice than Canned. Generally when I think of a creamery and cheese production, I don't think of it producing Canned Foods. Similarly, if you do end up having the bakery producing food, I wouldn't think of a bakery producing canned food.

[Hawk]

By the way, who can currently see this board? I remember that this board used to be hidden from most people (Hawk gave me access at some point) and this is a topic where we really need maximum input. Is this board now visible to everyone? If it's not, perhaps the thread should be moved to an open board.

I think this board is now open for all registered users to see as long as you are logged in.

BH is correct. This board is now accessible by all registered users. It's still invisible to guests and bots though.

I just changed this so guests could also see and read the forum.