Cargo & Industry fixes for 1.06

[Blackhawk]

Good to hear there's a new IP that hopefully isn't on any blacklists.

Ok that does make the 50% boost seem less ridiculous. Also I remember reading that you were thinking of changing the name of the Toys cargo. Why not change it to model trains instead of something general?

The idea behind giving toys a more general name like luxuries or valuables would be to allow it to be used in other industries. Most likely in this case a jeweler to convert ingots into something else. Many people don't seem to be thrilled with the Toys cargo so I thought it would be open to use elsewhere.

Edit: I think the idea of machinery giving a production boost to an industry is probably too complicated to be done. It likely requires some changes to the .bty file and potentially other files as well. Until I found this post: I never realized that the quarry said it would increase its production if supplied with fertilizer. It doesn't; but because of the "granite farmland" some code is saying if provided with fertilizer it would produce more.

[Blackhawk]

Okay in an effort to clarify what changes are possible at this point:

1. A printing press gets added with a dye + paper recipe = goods

2. A cannery is added with likely a corn + aluminum and coffee + aluminum recipe
-If the cannery is desired earlier, steel could be used
-Produce + plastic or coffee + plastic could be later recipes.
-Output could either be a renamed cargo for cheese or a renamed medicine or potentially "goods" but I'd rather not create lots of new industries that just create "goods" as it can skew the demand for goods then.

3. Either a Bank/mint is added or a demand of ingots is given to the church

4. Crystals are renamed sand and are still produced from the quarry, production may be increased to 2 loads.

5. A jeweler is added: Ingots = Renamed Toys or Goods

6. A glass factory is added: Sand + coal = ceramics (glass) or goods

7. A smelter is added and the ore = ingot chain is removed from the furnace

Questions now:

8 - Furnace? Is it kept?
-The Cement chain. Is it kept rock > ceramics > cement?
-Or is it now rock > cement which seems to make a little more sense than ceramics > cement.
-Alternative cement now requires rock + a fuel = cement
-The downside of removing the ceramics part of the chain would be that this cargo chain is now 1 less step.

9. Optional - Brick Kiln:
-Something like rock + sand = masonry or rock + sand + fuel = masonry

-Alternatively, it is kept as rock > ceramics > cement
-Then with the glass factory and sand there would now be 2 possible ways to create ceramics, which would be a waste of a cargo spot as both rock and sand would essentially end up doing the same thing in producing ceramics/glass. This would allow sand/crystals to be eliminated and some other cargo can be made in its place. (assuming a different cargo chain is used in the electronics plant)

10. If needed - Additional production of dye:
Option A - Chemical plant produced dye as well as chemicals after a certain date.
Option B - Chemical plant exchanges 1 coal = 2 dye, as many dyes can made from coal tar derivatives.
Option C - Chemical plant exchanges coal/oil = chemicals, another industry would then convert chemicals into dye. Some variation of these is possible.

11. Possible ethanol use:
Option A - add a separate ethanol plant
Option B - add sugar/corn = diesel to refineries

12. Machine shop:
Option A - 1860 start date
Option B - Use the proposed changes for a production recipe from this thread
1800 - 1876 1 Coal + 1 Iron + 1 Ingot = 3 Machinery
1856 - 1880 1 Coal + 1 Steel + 1 Ingot = 3 Machinery

13. Possible Landfill so the waste cargo can be available earlier. -- I'm not likely to add this industry right now.

14. Synthetic rubber - At this point no one has mentioned what additional uses there would be of rubber. I think 1 person mentioned they had ideas for it, but never elaborated. If synthetic rubber is demanded either 1. A new industry that changes chemicals and/or oil into rubber could be created, or 2. If the game has no additional uses of rubber other than tires, a chemicals and/or oil = tires cargo chain could be added at the tire factory.

I think the main thing at this point is deciding on the rock > ceramics > cement/masonry cargo chain and the use of sand. I don't want to have to rebuild the wheel in a 1.07, but if we have better industry ideas in mind and can use sand or medicine in more useful way and tie things into the existing industries I'm willing to listen to that as well. After all a 1.07 should have some meaningful changes to it or else it's not worth the effort.

[Blackhawk]

The attached files are a couple small changes that may help the furnace in 1.06 work better.

1. Church.bca -- It now demands 2 ingots a year. Its start date was changed from 1905 to 1830.

2. Machineshop.bca -- Start date changed to 1860 to maintain compatibility. The alternate one with recipes could be used, but then it lead to issues if any pre-1860's scenario demanded machinery production. Although using the alternate recipes would increase ingot demand. I'm 50-50 as to which route to go. If the ingots at a church provide sufficient variation and demand for ingots then a 1860 start should be fine.

3. Concrete.cty - Changed to a closed hopper car, price changed from 100k to 120k, rot time changed.

4. Ceramics.cty - Price changed from 40k to 70k.

Feel free to test these out with any 1.06 maps you play and to see if there are any improvements with the price of ingots and the likelihood of ore converting to ingots at the furnace. Obviously not a perfect fix since the furnace is still 1 industry instead of separated into 2, but it should be an improvement now that there is a greater demand for ingots.

If there are any improvements with this fix, I'll likely package it with the finalized 1.06 warehouse replacement buildings and release it as a 1.06.01 fix. If there are any 1.06 locomotives with improved skins or anything like that by Gumboots those could probably be added as well.

[OilCan]

Once again, I’m sharing my thoughts on this matter.

In my humble opinion, the 3 major weak spots in 1.06V industry chains are (in order of brokenness):
> The quarry – furnace – machinery / electronics industry chain
> The pharmaceutical – hospital chain
> The dye – plastic / furniture / textile chain

3 weak cargo demands are (in no order):
> Rubber
> Aluminum
> Paper
> toys (added later)

Allow me to address just the dye plantation in this post.
The demand for dye suffers from the fact that dye is not demanded by itself; it must be combined with oil, lumber or wool for a demand to exist. Demand for dye is dependent on the strength of demand for textiles, furniture &/or plastic, but these industries are not dependant upon dye. The player does not have to bother with dye unless he wants to.
Secondly, dye plantations are available in 1800, but its combination with lumber for furniture does not become available until 1880 and its combination with oil for plastic in 1945. Furniture and plastic are tertiary industries, twice removed from the raw resource of dye. The time lags and the teriary demand diminishes the demand for dye as well.

Dye is used in clothing and foods mostly. I don't see a reasonable way to create a secondary industry in RT3 which requires just dye alone. Dye has to continue to be used in combination with other cargos.

My recommended solutions:
> Allow furniture to become available in 1800 (after all, furniture manufacturing has been available for centuries).
> I second the motion for the creation of a printing press industry; this will help boost a demand for dye – albeit a combined demand with paper in a teriatry industry, but it helps.
> Add dye as a demand in retail (hair, stains, coloring) so there is a low background demand for dye in cities.
> Add dye as a demand in schools (ink, stains) for same reason.

In the end, dye will remain a minor player in the cargo game, but with a few modifications it can rise from being a faint contributor to about the same contribution status as rice, coffee and fruit.

[Blackhawk]

Thanks for your continued responses and thoughts.

I was just looking at some of the cargoes and dyes are tied into a variety of industries, but you're right there isn't any area they are critical and just the only input. I was actually thinking a little while ago, if a cargo slot was needed, dyes could just be replaced with the more vague "chemicals" and the production amount of chemicals could be increased or a conversion like your suggested pulpwood (or coal/oil) to chemicals could be used as a way for the player to increase chemical production. That said though, I think dyes may be best "new" cargo that the 1.06 crew tied into the old industries. One way to give it more importance would be a scenario designer could make a scenario with limited availability of lumber/cotton/wool and have a haulage goal for furniture/clothing, so the dyes would gain more importance.

-Adding demand for dyes at a retail location or a school would be a good idea. Maybe even the construction firm as the dyes would then represent stains and paints.

I see you list rubber, paper, and aluminum as weakly demanded cargoes:

Aluminum:
I just realized that aluminum is added to a later recipe for autos (1990) and a recipe to the weapons factory (1970). Most scenarios don't seem to take place in the 1950-2000+ range to take advantage of those though. I think a cannery will help give more use to aluminum earlier in the game. I also have some other thoughts on how to use it, but those are later uses and might not be needed.

Paper:
A printing press gives paper slightly more use. Perhaps schools should demand paper. Potentially a cereal plant/food packaging plant could use paper + rice/grain but so far the idea of a cereal plant/packaging plant is lukewarm. It would also become a question of what is the output of this plant then? goods? a renamed cheese cargo? the medicine cargo renamed?

Rubber:
I'm curious what your other uses for rubber would be, as you mentioned you had thoughts on its use earlier but were going to save that for a later post.

[OilCan]

2. A cannery is added with likely a corn + aluminum and coffee + aluminum recipe
-If the cannery is desired earlier, steel could be used
-Produce + plastic or coffee + plastic could be later recipes.
-Output could either be a renamed cargo for cheese or a renamed medicine or potentially "goods" but I'd rather not create lots of new industries that just create "goods" as it can skew the demand for goods then.

I second the motion for a cannery.

I especially like the use of aluminum. This cargo desperately needs a boost in demand. A cannery is an excellent choice.
I also like the idea of coffee being demanded by an industry. This gives a much needed option for map makers to manipulate the coffee demand on a map - besides the advantage it can give to game players.
I would not use corn simply because the demand for corn already seems to work very well in the game. I would not want to mess something up with the way corn provides a stability in the economy.
May I suggest produce (fruit) in place of corn. Interestingly, fruit is demanded by only one secondary industry (distillery) plus house demands. If there are none to few distilleries on the map, the demand for fruit can languish. A cannery that demands fruit allows a map maker to mix in another option besides distilleries for fruit - and again gives an advantage to game players.
May I also suggest cheese as a third cargo for a cannery. This is a stretch, I agree, but cheese needs a boost in demand. it has a faint demand in houses and that's all. I can understand if cheese is not selected for a cannery - but consider this: Australia is a major supplier of canned cheese.

I would name the cargo as "Canned Food" or "Canned Goods" in place of the cargo slot used for "Medicine". (Yes, this means I'd vote to remove pharmacueticals and medicine, but that's another discussion.)

Lastly, allow me to say that I would not change the cannery's ingredients from aluminum for plastic for two reasons: 1) there needs to be a solid and constant demand for aluminum besides T&Ds which a cannery can provide, and 2) we already have an industry which switches to plastic (toys) and the game does not need another one. I would think that switching from steel to aluminum in 1910 is a reasonable switch.

[OilCan]

Paper:
A printing press gives paper slightly more use. Perhaps schools should demand paper. Potentially a cereal plant/food packaging plant could use paper + rice/grain but so far the idea of a cereal plant/packaging plant is lukewarm. It would also become a question of what is the output of this plant then? goods? a renamed cheese cargo? the medicine cargo renamed?

We are crossing thoughts in our posts.
I'll provide my thoughts about paper since you mentioned this cargo.

I second the motion for the printing press idea. Paper needs a boost in demand (it now has commercial buildings & houses I believe), but not a super large boost. I have noticed that paper mills have good years and bad years - because it does not take much paper to saturate the demand of a town. I have to add ports or warehouses that demand paper to build a sustainable demand for paper.
I would allow a printing press to demand paper with or without dye. There would not be an output cargo. The printing press would act similar to a construction firm: providing a source of demand but no cargo. The player should be allowed to build a printing press for $300-$500K.

I would suggest adding a paper demand to stadiums, schools, churches & retail.

I would think that adding a printing press and adding the slight demands by support buildings would make paper become a solid cash maker for a player, but not a cash cow: and this is reasonable.

[RulerofRails]

Oilcan, thanks for sharing your ideas. Much appreciated.

I have been experimenting with adding a Machinery demand to various industries and also working on understanding how the farms function when supplied with fertilizer. Blackhawk has been a great help in this (thanks, BH!).

I have discovered that that the farm's "20% increase in production per year if supplied with Fertilizer" message is not accurate in the first place and is just text hiding a transformation chain of:
0.2 Fertilizer = 1 Grain/Rice/Produce/etc. with a transformation limit of 2 per year. The reason this appears as an increase in production is that the transformation limit doesn't include the normal supply amount. It is extra.

I learned this while experimenting with adding new production chains including a small amount of Machinery at Textile and Lumber Mills. For example, 3 Logs + 1 Machinery = 4 Lumber. Because I was adding larger integers in the production chains I noticed a small increase in production in ideal conditions in boom times. 8% increase in production was the maximum I saw. Profits were stable, but this didn't really seem like the best use we could make of Machinery as a cargo.

So I thought that I would try to replicate the Fertilizer-farm increase effect with logging camps, quarries and mines when they are supplied with Machinery. I haven't fine-tuned the conversion rates yet, but am pretty confident that they can be balanced ok even with the Machinery price being so high. Adding a 0.2 demand for Machinery wasn't attracting Machinery very well, but Blackhawk came to the rescue with the idea he gave me in a PM to have a demand only chain as well. This way we can get an acceptable consumption of Machinery and demand without breaking profitability. I have also removed the 0.1 Machinery demand per year that was added to all the production industries when 1.06 came out. The 0.1 demand gets overwhelmed far too easily. Currently, all one needs to do is let Machinery sit at an industrial town for a couple of months waiting for demand to turn orange and then haul it away again to a new town for a tidy profit. This can then be repeated again and again.

Oilcan, I know you suggested a Machinery demand at farms. But, what do you think of what I have attempted in adding it to the logging camps, quarries and mines?
You also suggested an auto demand at farms. I definitely agree that tractors and transportation increase crop yields at farms, but because houses demand them already it would be hard to attract and keep them at a farm long enough to be consumed. I don't think that a significant enough amount of autos (representing tractors, trucks, etc.) gets consumed at farms to risk messing up any of the current demands for autos. Maybe I am wrong though?

This might be a lot more work, but do you have any ideas about the current Goods cargo? To me the current Goods chain is really simplified.

Yesterday, I read some of Coruscate's ideas here viewtopic.php?f=68&t=1399&hilit=vineyar ... 120#p14994. He suggests multiple Goods cargoes and Metal Parts. That gave me an idea:
We could possibly rename Goods, Metal Parts and still make them at the Tool and Die and use the Toys cargo for Goods. The Toy Factory (rename to something else) will then make the new Goods and when Plastic is available we could make it immediately available to convert straight to Goods (Obviously remove it from the Tool and Die). The other conversions could use 2-input combinations between various second and first tier cargoes in many potential combinations and industries. Making a second-tier cargo necessary in all conversions would be good. It may be necessary to tone down the price of Metal Parts (current goods) a little. I realize that Toys are an integral part of some current scenarios but many have said how easy it is to unrealistically make dump-loads of Toys. And anyway after more in-depth changes like this the current scenarios wont play the same in 1.07.

This is essentially a bigger twist on the rename of Toys to Luxury Goods/Valuables idea that Stoker originally planned. I understand he was doing this to try to get a cargo to make using Ingots, but this way it can be combined with other things to make Goods. A demand at the Church and a possible bank as well as the possibility of including it in small amounts with Steel and Aluminum in Tool and Die recipes for Metal Parts should take care of the need for more demand for Ingots. Anyway, that's an idea, any thoughts?

PS. I am a slow writer and spent all the time thinking about and writing this since Oilcan first posted. I like the direction we are going here. This should turn out really good!

[OilCan]

Rubber:
I'm curious what your other uses for rubber would be, as you mentioned you had thoughts on its use earlier but were going to save that for a later post.

I do not have a strong opinion about rubber. I am still thinking about it and open to good ideas.
The issue with rubber is that it's removal as a cargo from the game puts the auto industry into question & of lesser concern, the weapons factory too.
The detraction with rubber is that it has a very narrow industry chain: rubber-tire-auto. Nothing else demands rubber except tires and nothing demands tires except autos (& weapons).

I assume that we want to keep the auto industry, then we have to find a way to expand the rubber-tire portion of the chain.
My latest thought is to introduce a new secondary industry that demands rubber: an appliance industry (washing machines, stoves, etc..).
The appliance industry would require rubber & aluminum or rubber & steel = 1 appliance. One could add electronics + aluminum + rubber as a third recipe to produce 2 appliances. The outcome would be an 'Appliance' cargo that would replace the medicine demand in Houses, plus new demands added to bakeries, hospitals, retail, barracks and other industries. The Appliance cargo would act similar to meat cargo; no further industry demand and most cargo would be taken up by houses.

A new demand for tires would be added to retail, schools (buses) and recycling plants. Plus any other industry which might use wheels.

Appliance industry gives map makers a second industry option for rubber. Increasing the background demand for tires should allow this factory to become more productive (profitable) than it usually is.

Lastly, if we do go with an Appliance industry, then Bauxite and Alum Mill should become available in 1900 (not 1910), the same year the rubber farm becomes available.

[OilCan]

I have discovered that that the farm's "20% increase in production per year if supplied with Fertilizer" message is not accurate in the first place and is just text hiding a transformation chain of:
0.2 Fertilizer = 1 Grain/Rice/Produce/etc. with a transformation limit of 2 per year. The reason this appears as an increase in production is that the transformation limit doesn't include the normal supply amount. It is extra.

Interesting! Good work.

Oilcan, I know you suggested a Machinery demand at farms. But, what do you think of what I have attempted in adding it to the logging camps, quarries and mines?

I think this is a good idea and a very realistic idea. Please explain to me the 'demand chain' verse the 'production chain' as they are coded for an industry.

You also suggested an auto demand at farms. I definitely agree that tractors and transportation increase crop yields at farms, but because houses demand them already it would be hard to attract and keep them at a farm long enough to be consumed. I don't think that a significant enough amount of autos (representing tractors, trucks, etc.) gets consumed at farms to risk messing up any of the current demands for autos. Maybe I am wrong though?

You are probably right: the demand for autos already seems to be constant and profitable. There does not seem to be a compelling reason to add extra demand. You are right to leave well enough alone.

This might be a lot more work, but do you have any ideas about the current Goods cargo? To me the current Goods chain is really simplified.

I like the Tool & Die -> Goods industry chain. It can be very profitable. Plus it is the singular best demand for aluminum in the game. I'd vote that we keep it intact.
That said, I have no reservations against renaming the cargo to 'Metal Parts' or something that better fits a tool & die shop. I always thought that 'goods' was an odd name for tools, dies, molds, cutters and other machinery parts that come from a tool & die. Metal Parts is a good idea.

...and use the Toys cargo for Goods. The Toy Factory (rename to something else) will then make the new Goods and when Plastic is available we could make it immediately available to convert straight to Goods...I realize that Toys are an integral part of some current scenarios but many have said how easy it is to unrealistically make dump-loads of Toys. And anyway after more in-depth changes like this the current scenarios wont play the same in 1.07.

Toys are another weak cargo in 1.06V. I should have included toys in my earlier list. I have no concerns about using the toy cargo slot for another cargo type. (Maybe appliances?)

This is essentially a bigger twist on the rename of Toys to Luxury Goods/Valuables idea that Stoker originally planned. I understand he was doing this to try to get a cargo to make using Ingots, but this way it can be combined with other things to make Goods. A demand at the Church and a possible bank as well as the possibility of including it in small amounts with Steel and Aluminum in Tool and Die recipes for Metal Parts should take care of the need for more demand for Ingots. Anyway, that's an idea, any thoughts?

I'm unsettled about the ingot industry chain. The whole chain needs a careful revamp. We need to stay away from 3 ingredient recipes unless there are already 2 ingredient recipes also offered for the product. Three and only 3 ingredients is a kiss of death for the product. Allow me to think further about the ingot industry chain before offering an opinion.

[Blackhawk]

Oilcan, I know you suggested a Machinery demand at farms. But, what do you think of what I have attempted in adding it to the logging camps, quarries and mines?

I think this is a good idea and a very realistic idea. Please explain to me the 'demand chain' verse the 'production chain' as they are coded for an industry.

There is a lot to respond to in the past couple threads but I'll start with a couple things and then respond to the others in a little bit. In the .bca files there are two types of cargo recipes. Type 1: It is a demand only cargo chain. The industry will demand a cargo and use up that cargo but it won't count towards the industry's profits/costs and will have no effect on its production. This type is most noticeable in the 1.06 brewery and distillery. They demand ceramics, but their use of ceramics don't lower their profits. Type 2: This type can be broken down into 2 subgroups. Type2A. A cargo is produced and that's it. Farms/mines/etc fall into this category. The second subgroup Type2B: This is the typical production chain. X cargo in = Y cargo out.

The way a farm works is that there is a max transformation/conversion value in them that determines how much fertilizer/corn will be converted. This is the number you see on a traditional industry, like the textile mill being 4 loads per year. The farm's main use is the production of a cargo, we'll say rice. This is a type 2a cargo chain. This type of chain does not affect the max conversion of the industry. This is why a farm can use fertilizer/corn as a "boost." Since the initial creation of the rice isn't affected by the "max conversion value" and only the Type 2b chains are. So behind the scenes it's really a .2 loads of fertilizer = 1 load of rice conversion. It looks like a boost on the outside, but in reality it's not. It's just its own separate conversion.

This is also why it would be easier to get machinery working at the places raw materials are produced at: mines, quarry, oil rig, chemical plant. Rather than a traditional industry. If machinery were used at a textile mill, it would fall under that 4 max transformation/conversion loads a year and without a lot of work, it wouldn't provide any "boost" to the industry as the max loads is set at 4 and as the "boost" is just coded as another input-output (type 2b) cargo chain, it will fall under that max conversion factor.

While it may be possible like RoR has done with the lumber mill by using a higher input to output ratio to confuse RT3 on what its max production value is, it's not easy to figure out the best way to balance it and likely takes a lot of testing to ensure its stability.

Edited to add part 2:
My latest thoughts on the rock > ceramics > cement chain and ingot chain.

This idea removes the renaming of crystals as sand as the use of sand to make glass/ceramics would be duplicative with the rock to ceramics. And if rock became directly cement it seems to be lacking depth.

Metal Ore > Ingots
Ingots >
1. church/bank
2. Jeweler > Valuables (formerly toys)
3. Wire factory > Wire (formerly crystals/medicine/new cargo if the last possible cargo slot doesn't cause problems)
Wire >
1. Electronics Factory = Ceramics + ingots/wire, replace crystals + ingots with wire + plastics
2. Machine Shop = Maybe throw in an additional possible cargo chain: Steel + electronics + wire, or something to that affect. Maybe an optional 2 cargo stream using wire like wire + electronics. The 2 cargo chain would be easier to get in that it only requires 2 cargoes, but also slower and more time consuming since the creation of wire would take an extra step.
3. Construction Firm/radio station/power plant could all be potential demands
[4. This one gets into a side issue a creation of a aircraft plant or shipyard -- Either could use wire in its recipe. Possibly Aluminum as well. This would necessitate renaming Autos to Vehicles.]

Rock/Clay/Limestone/sand:
1. Clay > ceramics - (rock only)
a. brewery, possibly throw in an optional grain + ceramics = alcohol chain rather than just the current demand only chain.
b. Distillery - see above
c. Construction firm.
2. Clay > cement (masonry) -- rock + coal/diesel
a. construction firm
b. demanded a houses
[3. If the cargo is limestone - potentially demanded/used in a cargo recipe at the fertilizer plant, although lime is more of soil modifier than fertilizer and the level of fertilizer in the game probably doesn't really warrant having another way to produce it.]

These cargo chains could use some careful reworking. The above may be a possible way to work it out, or maybe not. I know earlier in the thread Wolverine mentioned going specific like wire might not be a good idea but the advantage of this would be that it enhances the ore > ingot chain at a time when the cement chain has been reduced a step as the ceramics > concrete conversion didn't make the most sense.

[RulerofRails]

I think this is a good idea and a very realistic idea. Please explain to me the 'demand chain' verse the 'production chain' as they are coded for an industry.

Blackhawk did a great job of explaining the possible cargo chains. The term "demand only chain" can be a bit confusing considering this only causes an industry to consume cargo, but the section for these "chains" are mostly the same as the others in the *.bca files so please bear with us here.

I am sure you have noticed that the farms have tiny green triangles on the Fertilizer demand map overlay. This is because the demand for Fertilizer is so small (0.2). Demands less than 1 per year have a small effect on the price map, and some of the TM industries suffer from this problem. Fertilizer to the farms works fine because the price of Fertilizer is medium, there is never a great deal on a map, and farms are the only demand. Machinery, however, is a high value cargo so it is much more sensitive to demands and moves much faster over land on its own. So to keep prices more stable I have been adding a Type 1 (demand only) chain that consumes one load of Machinery per year without producing anything. Credit to Blackhawk, he thought of doing this.

I like the Tool & Die -> Goods industry chain. It can be very profitable. Plus it is the singular best demand for aluminum in the game. I'd vote that we keep it intact.
That said, I have no reservations against renaming the cargo to 'Metal Parts' or something that better fits a tool & die shop. I always thought that 'goods' was an odd name for tools, dies, molds, cutters and other machinery parts that come from a tool & die. Metal Parts is a good idea.

I wasn't suggesting to get rid of the Tool and Die or the Aluminum and Steel chains. Only the Plastic chain because it would already be used in the renamed Toy Factory to make Goods. It makes no sense to make Metal Parts out of Plastic. I noticed you used the word "machinery" in the list of things that Metal Parts could represent. So we would have to try to keep Machinery and Metal Parts different. Maybe requiring Oil with Metal Parts to make Machinery? Maybe leaving Ignots out of the Machine Shop and incorporating a small amount of them into recipes + Steel and Aluminum at the Tool and Die. As far as I can tell Ignots represent Copper, Zinc, Silver, Gold, and other rarer metals.

Have you looked at Arop's Novia Scotia map? He has used the feature added in 1.06 of renaming warehouses to make player-build-able Maple Syrup, Oil Shale, and Crystal Processing plants (this is a stop-gap to make Crystals into Rock and not just have them sitting on the map like they normally do). These basically function like region-specific customizable industries but have two limitations: (1.) They can only convert one cargo to another so 2 input cargo chains are out of the picture, and (2.) They look like another warehouse on the map. If you try them please note that the Maple Syrup plant needs tweaking to make 2 sugar from 1 load of logs as it is currently marginally profitable. This is the reason why Stoker was intending to make new industries mainly require two inputs. Something to keep in mind, anyway.

Blackhawk, I notice you have posted some more ideas as things are coming together. The Autos to Vehicles rename makes sense to me. I would try to see what effect you get when you tried adding the 52nd cargo. I read that Coruscate also had a problem with it, so might be wise to try it out before we have all these good ideas that then need to be axed! If we run out of cargoes that brings up the question of Waste and how little it does for the game. I know it is intertwined with houses somehow, but is it theoretically possible to nix it? Coruscate tried to do some things to make it more useful but I have not tried them out. I am yet to see a 1.06 map with Waste enabled as a cargo. The fact remains that most of the scenarios are in the time period from 1850-1950 and things outside that time period do little for the majority of games.

Oilcan, I like your ideas of making the Cannery like the RT2 one using Coffee or Produce. Would you want to include recipes with Steel to make it viable earlier as well? After all, all that Alcohol I normally make on my maps is seriously unhealthy for my inhabitants! Now they can drink fruit juice!

[Hawk]

May I also suggest cheese as a third cargo for a cannery. This is a stretch, I agree, but cheese needs a boost in demand. it has a faint demand in houses and that's all. I can understand if cheese is not selected for a cannery - but consider this: Australia is a major supplier of canned cheese.

Canned cheese? Yuuck! That sounds disgusting. The only canned cheese I can think of off the top of my head is that disgusting stuff you squirt out of a can onto crackers.
Even American Cheese is disgusting, probably because it's not really cheese. It's a processed product. Cheese should be - well, cheese. Made from milk, aged and packaged as such.

Rubber:
I'm curious what your other uses for rubber would be, as you mentioned you had thoughts on its use earlier but were going to save that for a later post.

I do not have a strong opinion about rubber. I am still thinking about it and open to good ideas.
The issue with rubber is that it's removal as a cargo from the game puts the auto industry into question & of lesser concern, the weapons factory too.
The detraction with rubber is that it has a very narrow industry chain: rubber-tire-auto. Nothing else demands rubber except tires and nothing demands tires except autos (& weapons).

I assume that we want to keep the auto industry, then we have to find a way to expand the rubber-tire portion of the chain.

The Autos to Vehicles rename makes sense to me.

You also suggested an auto demand at farms. I definitely agree that tractors and transportation increase crop yields at farms, but because houses demand them already it would be hard to attract and keep them at a farm long enough to be consumed. I don't think that a significant enough amount of autos (representing tractors, trucks, etc.) gets consumed at farms to risk messing up any of the current demands for autos. Maybe I am wrong though?

You are probably right: the demand for autos already seems to be constant and profitable. There does not seem to be a compelling reason to add extra demand. You are right to leave well enough alone.

Personally, I like the Auto Plant. I like it as is and we should keep it - as is. Renaming it to Vehicles doesn't work for me. The auto racks don't haul trucks and tractors, so adding vehicles to farms doesn't make sense to me.

My latest thought is to introduce a new secondary industry that demands rubber: an appliance industry (washing machines, stoves, etc..).
The appliance industry would require rubber & aluminum or rubber & steel = 1 appliance. One could add electronics + aluminum + rubber as a third recipe to produce 2 appliances. The outcome would be an 'Appliance' cargo that would replace the medicine demand in Houses, plus new demands added to bakeries, hospitals, retail, barracks and other industries. The Appliance cargo would act similar to meat cargo; no further industry demand and most cargo would be taken up by houses.

A new demand for tires would be added to retail, schools (buses) and recycling plants. Plus any other industry which might use wheels.

Appliance industry gives map makers a second industry option for rubber. Increasing the background demand for tires should allow this factory to become more productive (profitable) than it usually is.

Lastly, if we do go with an Appliance industry, then Bauxite and Alum Mill should become available in 1900 (not 1910), the same year the rubber farm becomes available.

Tires to a Recycling Plant? I don't get that one, unless you're thinking of recycled tires, which wouldn't come from the tire factory. They recycle in-house.

Adding rubber to an Appliance Plant also doesn't make sense to me. Appliances use so little rubber in making appliances, you would have to do somewthing like...

This is because the demand for Fertilizer is so small (0.2). Demands less than 1 per year have a small effect on the price map, and some of the TM industries suffer from this problem.

As mentioned above, making the demand minimal would be the way to go, but as also mentioned above, it changes things so little, would it even be worth it?

...and use the Toys cargo for Goods. The Toy Factory (rename to something else) will then make the new Goods and when Plastic is available we could make it immediately available to convert straight to Goods...I realize that Toys are an integral part of some current scenarios but many have said how easy it is to unrealistically make dump-loads of Toys. And anyway after more in-depth changes like this the current scenarios wont play the same in 1.07.

Toys are another weak cargo in 1.06V. I should have included toys in my earlier list. I have no concerns about using the toy cargo slot for another cargo type. (Maybe appliances?)

I agree. The Toy Factory can be changed to something else.

[Blackhawk]

When it rains it pours. So many things to comment on now at one time.

Cannery:
Canned Cheese:
It may be popular in some parts of the world, but for RT3 logistics I think I'd rule this one out. Cheese is one of the more expensive cargos, where as produce/corn are some of the cheaper ones. Coffee is slightly more expensive but still closer to the price of the cheaper cargoes.
1 produce/coffee + 1 aluminum = 2 Food is going to be much more profitable than a 1 cheese + 1 aluminum = 2 Food

Also of note, if cheese is renamed to packed food, then cheese wouldn't be available to use in the cargo chain. In addition, if a renamed cheese cargo is the output cargo, I would increase the demand at houses for cheese. Currently it's at .02.

Produce vs Corn vs Coffee
-Coffee seems like a given to use since it has no other purpose.
-Produce has a use at the distillery, while corn's use is to feed the animals. (dairy/cattle - 1 farm = 1 load of corn used per year). I have no problem with using produce here, but I think maybe some testing would be the better way to go to see which works best. Produce is only used by the distillery and houses (.03 per house), but the same is true of rice (brewery and .02 at houses). Grain is similiar except for the demand created by the bakery (.03 at houses). Corn's demand is the 2 animal farms and the houses (.02).

Steel v. Aluminum v. Plastic
-I think this may depend on the year that the cannery becomes available and how historically accurate do we want to be.
-Being historically accurate, I think it would be the late 1950s when aluminum started getting used for canning purposes. However, if aluminum only starts being used in the 1950s, then we've now introduced another industry that uses aluminum but only towards the later stages of the game. Albeit, 1950s is earlier than the 1970 and 1990 for the weapons factory and autoplant. Although even those dates are a little flexible.

Rubber
I'm on the fence about an appliance factory. Yes, it could give steel/aluminum another use and possibly a use for metal parts/wire if something like that was created. But as Hawk said, the amount of rubber used is relatively limited.
An alternative would be something like a shoe factory. Rubber = Clothes, Rubber + cotton = clothing, or Rubber + Clothing = Goods. If we were using hides instead of dyes, this would be a useful place for hides. This could be a stand alone industry for the hides. Leather hides > Clothing/Goods. And Rubber would be a second recipe chain. However, dyes seem to be pretty well worked into cargo recipes at this point.
A 3rd option of last resort if a cargo slot is needed -- Rubber is shipped directly to the auto plant, and tires are eliminated as a cargo and the cargo slot is used for something of more use.

Toys
I'm pretty sure I've voiced my opinion on this cargo as I was for the renaming of it to luxuries/valuables and using in a second industry. I like the current toys recipes, but I don't think they necessarily need to be called toys.

Waste
Gumboots said waste is useful in late game scenarios, although I can't remember one where I was shipping a lot of waste around.
-Option 1. Introduce a landfill to demand waste earlier than 1990. This means that essentially until 1990 when the recycling plant becomes available, waste would be much like the current state of coffee; it isn't processed in any way, shape, form, it is just shipped somewhere and that's the end of it.
-Option 2. Removing waste from the game and replacing it with a more advantageous cargo that would have more use in the 1850-1950 time frame when most scenarios occur. (Side note - people need to make more late game scenarios, I like using diesels!) This would require removing the first cargo chain from houses where .06 waste is produced by a house.

Tool & Die
-I like the current recipes of the T&D, although I can see potentially adding in a chain using ingots, depending on what alternative industries for ingots are created. If plastics are removed, then I think some alternate industry may need to have a demand for plastics to replace the lost demand.
-Renaming toys to become Metal Parts, and making the toy factory produce goods:
I prefer a more specific name like Tools or Fabrications (too long) over Metal parts, but I can see how metal parts could be more versatile and more useful. If they end up being used at another industry like the machine shop then it makes more sense. If the renamed cargo doesn't get used elsewhere then I'm not sure it is worth the hassle of changing it. The goods cargo is more encompassing and can be used as an output from a variety of sources.

If I missed something that someone wanted from the last few posts, let me know. There was a lot to go through so I may have read over it and forgotten to comment on it.

Edit:
I forgot to add, I do think the goods cargo chain is relatively developed. If you consider it Steel > Goods then yes it is short. But if you consider it Coal/Iron > Steel > Goods, or Bauxite > Aluminum > Goods, then there are a couple steps in the chain, compared to many things with only 1 step (milk > cheese, grain > alcohol).

[AdmiralHalsey]

Good to hear there's a new IP that hopefully isn't on any blacklists.

Ok that does make the 50% boost seem less ridiculous. Also I remember reading that you were thinking of changing the name of the Toys cargo. Why not change it to model trains instead of something general?

The idea behind giving toys a more general name like luxuries or valuables would be to allow it to be used in other industries. Most likely in this case a jeweler to convert ingots into something else. Many people don't seem to be thrilled with the Toys cargo so I thought it would be open to use elsewhere.

I honestly hate the more General stuff. I like it when you know exactly what a cargo is and where it goes. I don't like it when a cargo goes into 50 different things at any given time and you have to pick and choose which ones you feed and which ones you leave to whither and die. Plus why change toys at all? So long as you feed the factory with the cargo it needs it'll always pays good money.

[OilCan]

Just a quick post: then back to work.

I am fairly certain that Tycoonians are very fond of canned cheese, but I will withdraw that suggestion in consideration of the opinion of others. (I do wish Hawk would be more emotional about cheese, especially canned cheese. )

Where is rubber in appliances? Hoses, belts, gaskets, seals, very tiny wheels, iddy biddy somethings...Ok maybe there's not that much rubber in appliances. I was grasping for a second industry for rubber which produced a cargo that is carried by trains. Tough audience.

I'm back to work and will reply more fully later. And, hey Hawk, after the coming Apocalypse is over, I'll save a can of cheese for you; you'll probably like it by then.

[Blackhawk]

A slice of canned cheese, with some canned spam. Maybe they can freeze dry bread. Just add water and it'll be a fresh, tasty sandwich. If that's the meal to look forward to after the Apocolypse, I'm not sure I'll want to make it out alive!

[RulerofRails]

I have an idea to help out Rubber as a cargo. According to Wikipedia, roughly 70% of Rubber is used to make tires. Rubber -> Tires is a straight conversion, so maybe we should be thinking of about more ways to use tires as auto plants are not the only places that use them in real life. In fact, I believe most of them are used elsewhere, so why don't we make a municipal building called a Garage or something like that demanding say 2 Tires, 1 Diesel, 1 Metal Parts. Adding a demand to the Military Depot would also make sense.

TM uses lots of Municipal Buildings and they do have conflicting demands with many industries because they demand almost every type of cargo. But using them sensibly to create better demand for little-used products should be a winner. Non custom consists should be required. This is similar to Oilcan's suggestion to sensibly create more demand for Paper.

[Gumboots]

May I also suggest cheese as a third cargo for a cannery. This is a stretch, I agree, but cheese needs a boost in demand. it has a faint demand in houses and that's all. I can understand if cheese is not selected for a cannery - but consider this: Australia is a major supplier of canned cheese.

I was surprised by this. I don't know if it's true or not (I can't help thinking abut Ned's misconceptions regarding Australian bank notes) but I've lived in Australia for over half a century and have never seen or heard of canned cheese.

I would think that switching from steel to aluminum in 1910 is a reasonable switch.

I'd say that's too early for aluminium cans. In 1910 it was still quite an exotic metal.

[Gumboots]

Steel v. Aluminum v. Plastic
-I think this may depend on the year that the cannery becomes available and how historically accurate do we want to be.
-Being historically accurate, I think it would be the late 1950s when aluminum started getting used for canning purposes. However, if aluminum only starts being used in the 1950s, then we've now introduced another industry that uses aluminum but only towards the later stages of the game. Albeit, 1950s is earlier than the 1970 and 1990 for the weapons factory and autoplant. Although even those dates are a little flexible.

Let's face it: if we want accuracy then about the only way to get earlier uses for aluminium would be to introduce a plane factory. Even that wouldn't apply before the 1920's.

Waste
Gumboots said waste is useful in late game scenarios, although I can't remember one where I was shipping a lot of waste around.

This was mainly an observation for if we were worrying about backwards compat. Some of the later scenarios did use waste quite a bit. If not worrying about backwards compat, waste could be renamed or whatever.

Tool & Die
-I like the current recipes of the T&D, although I can see potentially adding in a chain using ingots, depending on what alternative industries for ingots are created. If plastics are removed, then I think some alternate industry may need to have a demand for plastics to replace the lost demand.
-Renaming toys to become Metal Parts, and making the toy factory produce goods:
I prefer a more specific name like Tools or Fabrications (too long) over Metal parts, but I can see how metal parts could be more versatile and more useful. If they end up being used at another industry like the machine shop then it makes more sense. If the renamed cargo doesn't get used elsewhere then I'm not sure it is worth the hassle of changing it. The goods cargo is more encompassing and can be used as an output from a variety of sources.

Metal Parts? Ugh. I think a better solution than that would be preferable. Question: if you have a variety of industries producing goods, isn't that likely to overdo goods production? It would also seem to make some industries redundant.

I think plastics being used at a tool and die is fine, but then coming up with other uses for plastics wouldn't be hard. The stuff is used everywhere.

ETA: About cheese. Additional demands for it could easily be added to things like retail, bakery, restaurant, hotel, whatever.