1.06 Subproject: Adding Cargo Types

[milo]

Perhaps more general cargo names, like "Ore" or "Building Materials"? SMRR seems to have used that approach to good effect.

[pure al]

Milo- bombardiere’s right, those numbers don’t match the cargo IDs, I don't know what those are.
bombardiere- Do I see the same principle with the engine imb, yes they are almost identical, and you’ve been doing it the way it’s supposed to be done. I’ve not really discovered anything new.

Currently the Industries I've made go like this:

Gravel Dredger -> Gravel -> Cement Factory -> Cement -> Construction site

Gold Mine -> Gold -> Mint Factory -> Money -> Bank

That's 4 cargos and 6 buildings. And the buildings are all fully functioning, demanding and producing cargos. The Gravel Dredger is a coastal building like the port, but I tried to make a Gravel depot that was a by-the-rail building, where Gravel could be collected and then delivered to stations. I'm still working on that one. I'm resisting the temptation to edit original files because it would make scenarios unplayable, so for now nothing new is going to be demanded by houses.

Maybe our resident programming genius will figure out how to increase the cargo limit :D :D :D There are also buildings that don't require new cargos, like electric pylon, fishing port or a wall. Am I right in thinking that anything which adds extra content is beneficial?

[Lama]

Am I right in thinking that anything which adds extra content is beneficial?

I don't know whether you're right, but I do disagree with that statement.
More is not necessarily better, especially if it leads to potential compatability issues, both between patched and unpatched versions running the same map in single player, and in multiplayer.

I am not convinced that we need any of these new cargo chains. What would they add to gameplay? How would they improve a mapmaker's ability to tell a story/create a problem for the player to tackle? How realistic are they even, as RR cargo? (Gold --> Mint --> Bank strikes me as particularly unrealistic)

In general, I would advocate a conservative approach. Just because something can be done (and believe me, I am in awe of what you guys can do!), doesn't mean it should be done.

[Wolverine@MSU]

Instead of Gold in particular (or Silver or Platinum) how about "Precious Metal Ore". This could be sent to a smelter to give Ingots that could then be sent to many places: Mint, Electronics Manufacturer, Jewelers etc. How easy is it to invent new cargo streams and make them demand new cargoes? That is, make new industries that demand new cargoes. It seems like the best bang for the buck would be for cargoes that could go to several different middlemen ending in a wide variety of products. For instance, the Sand/Gravel cargo could go to a Cement Factory or a Pottery/China Factory or a Building Materials Warehouse. Same with the Ingots example above, going to several demand sinks.

Would it be worth posting a message in the General Forum asking for suggestions for new cargoes/cargo streams.

[Grandma Ruth]

Boy, am I impressed with the technical stuff in here! Don't understand a word of it! But the industries/cargoes thing - I seem to remember we had people on the old forum specifically wanting particular industries and/or cargoes so asking for ideas in the general forum might be sensible.

I think we need to work backwards from the demand to the supply - ultimate demand for money, for example, would be workplaces, i.e. factories, (the mint itself???), steel mills, etc, for payrolls. Lots of scope for Wild West scenarios if we bring the robberies back as someone suggested. Demands for jewellery, pottery, would be houses and other city buildings.

I don't understand enough about the way the game works but I think it's all going to be down to demand. What about the buildings that appear in cities, such as department stores, commercial buildings,etc? I think offices already have a demand for paper if I remember right. Stores would want any kind of goods. These buildings and houses would need altering to demand the new cargoes. Maybe I'm drifting a bit, so that's enough!

[Wolverine@MSU]

I like your idea Grandma: work backwards from final industies/buildings/depots that will demand either intermediate or primary products. For instance, Department Stores/Office Buildings/Houses(?) would demand Electronics. The Electronics would be made by an Electronics Factory which would demand Plastic/Ingots/Sand(for silicon wafers). Plastic is already produced in the game, Ingots would come from a Smelter (which in turn demands Precious Metal Ore), and sand comes from the Gravel Pit/Dredge.

[pure al]

My biggest obstacle at the moment is getting consistent feedback. Therefore it seems wrong to give any cargos/buildings towards a patch, as that should be something everybody agrees on.

Wolverine I like your Precious Metal Ore -> smelter -> Ingots idea.

...ending in a wide variety of products.

There is a cargo limit unfortunately, and a variety of end products would decrease the amount of new production buildings. Don’t know what you guys think of that.

Grandma Ruth- I think we need to work backwards from the demand to the supply - ultimate demand for money, for example, would be workplaces, i.e. factories, (the mint itself???), steel mills, etc, for payrolls. Lots of scope for Wild West scenarios if we bring the robberies back as someone suggested. Demands for jewellery, pottery, would be houses and other city buildings

Editing these sorts of features would ‘probably’ corrupt all previous scenarios. Although I have no idea where those things would be found atm.

Could someone set up a thread in GD and ask people to give/vote for new cargos and buildings. Maybe a list of things discussed would also be appropriate. Whoever wants the job go do it

[Lama]

I like your idea Grandma: work backwards from final industies/buildings/depots that will demand either intermediate or primary products.

That approach makes sense to me, too.

Nonetheless, I am not really sold, quite yet, on the fundamental question: Why do we need new cargoes, and what would they add to gameplay?

If we can come up with a major type of cargo so far neglected by RT3, that might convince me.

Like, BNSF and UP are hauling tons of imported consumer electronics from the West Coast ports to the East, these days. But that could easily be represented by generic 'goods'. After all, why single out electronics?

For the longest time in the history of RRs, 'less than carload' (LCL) cargo was really important. This would behave much like mail, but would be a type of cargo, instead.

[Hawk]

Just curious, but has anyone thought to inform Ned of where he went wrong so he can update his Atlantis map?

[milo]

Just curious, but has anyone thought to inform Ned of where he went wrong so he can update his Atlantis map?

Did Ned leave any contact information? I haven't seen him post since the forum rebuild.

Maybe our resident programming genius will figure out how to increase the cargo limit

If you had a programming genius, maybe he could. :) Just fumbling around, I can't figure out how to boost any of the asset limits without either trashing backwards compatibility with existing scenarios or adding a lot of code. Problem's that the existing GMP format allocates fixed numeric ranges to cargos (60), locomotives (96), ports/warehouses (12), companies (16), players (16), and probably buildings (?); exceeding those numbers would require either redesigning part of the GMP or reassigning event IDs.

It may be possible to create 'secondary' ranges for the problematic limits. Effect codes 0160-01bf would continue to represent cost adjustments to locomotives 00-5f, while a new set of effect codes in the 0300-03ff range would represent the 'overflow' batch of locomotives. This isn't happening anytime soon, though.

A more feasible approach may involve having individual scenarios load 'extra' assets, such as particular locomotive or cargo sets, into unused asset slots. This is partly why I've been recommending that we not fill up all available locomotive or cargo slots. Won't happen in 1.06, but it's a strong possibility for 1.07.

[Lama]

The existing GMP format allocates fixed numeric ranges to ... companies (16)

This may be slightly OT, but why does my Isola Nova map work? It has 20 companies (though only 13 players).

[milo]

The existing GMP format allocates fixed numeric ranges to ... companies (16)

This may be slightly OT, but why does my Isola Nova map work? It has 20 companies (though only 13 players).

Umm... because I misread my own notes? Mixed it up with the player limit. There is an upper limit to companies, one you can reproduce by continually creating companies and resigning; eventually you'll get a company that has a zero stock price and that crashes the game if you try to continue using it - but it looks as if neither Pjay nor I have found the data structures determining the limit yet.

BTW, the game does not test for any of the asset limits. About the only sign you'll get if you exceed a limit is a CtoD.

[bombardiere]

In general, I would advocate a conservative approach. Just because something can be done (and believe me, I am in awe of what you guys can do!), doesn't mean it should be done.

I agree with Lama, we need to careful on what we introduce in to the game. Thus I would say no cargoes witht he patch. However, this doesn't mean that your work Al is for nothing. Perhaps it would be possible to introduce new cargo later, when we have more understanding how new cargoes fully work and affect the game.

I think I have missed something about the cargo limit. Could sombody explain more aobut it. Is limit of total cargoes, or Buildings related to corgoes, or cargo + building.?

If it is overall cargo type number I don't think we have a huge problem. Current cargo number is somewhere under 45.

I suggest a similar approach I am thinking with the new engines. Define a "standard pack" and add this with scenario/user based extra material. Thus we could indentifie 7-8 cargos, which could be added in the game. These should be as versable as possible. (for example gravel, which could be used in several products and different scenario types.) This would leave about 8 cargoes for scenario makers.

Milo can I ask more info about this engine limit? You said 96, but I run in to problem only after 104, and these are not fatal.

P.S. I like choices, If I would be happy with generic cargoes, I guess I would be playing with SMRR.

[Lama]

However, this doesn't mean that your work Al is for nothing.

Goodness, I hope you didn't take my comments that way, Al? If so, let me just say that I second bombardier's sentiment.

Bomber: Would you like to post your comments in the public thread on this issue? If we're going to have a public discussion about this, it might be nice for the entire discussion to happen in that public place.

[pure al]

So after spending saturday upgrading and patching everything on my main pc I turned it off normally. Next morning however all I could see was the blue screen of death with various errors, and safe-mode wouldn't work. Instead of repairing windows I'll first try and save the harddrives by placing them in an external enclosure and backup everything. I may have lost all my textures, including the TGV, but I've still got all the cargo stuff as I was doing that on another pc. I'll be buying a new system in a few months if money situation improves :?

Moral of the story- Don't update windows, internet security programs, hardware drivers, anything :D
p.s. currently no internet connection either.

[bombardiere]

Sad to hear that Al. Yep life with the computer. I lost a lot of data in autumn, when I wasn't careful enough with the backup. :? Silly me.

I hope that TGV isn't a lost cause. I was really looking forward this. Second on my all time wish list. (number one is branch line tank engine, but that would required messing with 3D files)

[pure al]

From the start that computer has been unstable, so it’s time to buy a new one. At the moment I’m staying as far away from it as possible, because I know that it’s in a bad state. No more cheapo computers for me :D

Branch line tank engine?

And Lama I didn’t take your comments the wrong way, I’ll still work on the cargos, but maybe not as much. No offence taken, promise ;)

[milo]

Something to watch out for: cargo limit may be lower than the 60 that the event system suggested. The structure representing the economic record for each square of the map is 471 bytes long; there's an array of floating-point numbers representing cargo quantities available 259 bytes into it. If each floating-point entry is 4 bytes, you can see there might be a bit of trouble past the 52nd cargo or so.

Guess pure al's PC knew something we didn't! :?

[sbaros]

the existing GMP format allocates fixed numeric ranges to cargos (60), locomotives (96), ports/warehouses (12), companies (16), players (16), and probably buildings (?); exceeding those numbers would require either redesigning part of the GMP or reassigning event IDs.

I see a question mark in place of the maximum number of buildings. Has anyone of us experienced an absolute limit? I think I have reached 252 BTY designs divided into 126 different BCA categories without any problem so far. Do we have any limits for totals of either, or for maximum of BTY subcategories per BCA category? The "house" BCA group for example incorporates almost 100 individual BTY variants, 16 per architectural style.
Furthermore, provided that we observe the maximum of 52 commodities, can we have a limitless number of BCA industry types that recycle stuff among these 52 ? Even so nonsensical as to produce for example Ingots out of Concrete and Troops ?

[Gumboots]

This thread reminds me: I should run a database query sometime to convert various bits of garbage into utf-8 apostrophes, etc.

Anyway, I think there is a limit to the number of industries, but offhand I can't remember what it is. I vaguely recall it being mentioned somewhere.