Cargo & Industry fixes for 1.06

[Gumboots]

You didn't edit the open hopper model/mesh to include the required cargo model. It doesn't include the Logs model by default, so can't find CargoModel09.3dp, so falls back to an empty hopper. The "coal load" you can see is not actually a cargo model. It's part of the default hopper model. It shouldn't be, but for some reason it is. See viewtopic.php?p=42024#p42024

[sbaros]

Mission accomplished (well, almost...)
Strangely enough, these mysterious CCT definitions proved useless for this purpose too. I just changed temporarily the Open_Hopper.cct code from 14 to 4 (Flatbed) to see what happens, but it still didn't make the displayed gondola load the respective Flatcar cargo models.
So, in order to achieve the displayed -albeit surrealistic- result, I cloned the FlatC_CargoModel09.3dp into a file called "hopD_CargoModel09.3dp" and put it in my UserExtraContent folder. And of course changed the Logs.cty to "Open_Hopper" at the appropriate byte address as previously.
Similar tricks may allow either alternative car-load combinations , or more interestingly, hijacking load models made obsolete for the purpose of adding parts and fittings to rolling stock without messing with the base car 3D model itself.
Note I: Thinking of "coal load" as a part of the hopper itself, the only explanation I can guess is that it may be a leftover from some preliminary, rejected concept of the original programmers to have the complete wagon modeled with each load category, inseparable from the load. Otherwise, the coal skin steals precious space from the overall detail level that could have been attained without it.
Nevertheless, it does constitute an obstruction for things we may do with hopper cars, and it would be good if someone with DDS editing capabilities could put a deductive mask over the coal to make it disappear and upload the modified DDS skin somewhere.
Note II: It still remains a mystery to me how a specific commodity is associated to a specific 3D load model (for example "Logs" to "CargoModel09"). Certainly not through the CCT and CTY files. It is remarkable that we change the prefix (e.g. from FlatC_ to hopD_) in order to get the same load on a different car type. The nature of the cargo is some way connected to the number suffix, which is unique for each commodity (02,03, 09 etc) regardless of the car type used. This implies there are undocumented number slots for hitherto invisible cargos (such as wool, cotton, alcohol etc), which may become activated and visible once we decide to transport them in open wagons and design from scratch their respective bitmap skins?

[Gumboots]

Yep, .cct files don't have any effect on CargoModels files. Adding a CargoModel_0* is the way to do it, as mentioned in my previous post.

The idea of hijacking existing but unused cargo models is an old one, first done by WP&P to make his Pulpwood flats after he moved Goods to custom box cars. It works very well on single cars. Do be aware that it won't work for double or triple cargo cars, because a CargoModel file will only work on a Body.3dp. Doubles have to have the two cars done as "Truck1" and "Truck2" and trucks will not accept cargo models. You can use Body for the centre car in a triple, so a CargoModel will work there, but it still won't work on the front and rear cars. Note that the same limitation applies to CargoIcon.3dp files and smoke files: they only work on a Body.3dp.

Note I: ...it would be good if someone with DDS editing capabilities could put a deductive mask over the coal to make it disappear and upload the modified DDS skin somewhere.

Better option is to remove the coal mesh from the hopper model.

Note II: It still remains a mystery to me how a specific commodity is associated to a specific 3D load model (for example "Logs" to "CargoModel09"). Certainly not through the CCT and CTY files.

That is done internally by the game's exe. Note that cargo ID numbers are related to the position on the CargoIcons.dds, but are not related to the CargoModel number.

Code: Select all

Note: Cargo icons DDS sprite has spare space for an additional 19 cargoes.
Note: Cargo models 00 and 01 are not used by any cargoes.
============================================    =====================================
Cargo ID's, names, and start years.             Default cargo cars (1.05 standard).
============================================    =====================================
1       Alcohol.cty                             Boxcar
2       Aluminum.cty        Start year: 1910    Flatcar         (Cargo model 07)
3       Ammunition.cty      Start year: 1848    Boxcar
        (#4 reserved for "Any Cargo" icon)
        (#5 reserved for "Any Freight" icon)

6       Automobiles.cty     Start year: 1900    Auto carrier
7       Bauxite.cty         Start year: 1910    Open hopper     (Cargo model 12)
        (#8 was "Beer" during development)

9       Livestock.cty                           Stock car
10      Cheese.cty          Start year: 1880    Reefer
11      Chemicals.cty       Start year: 1905    Tanker
12      Coal.cty                                Open hopper     (Cargo model 10)
13      Coffee.cty                              Boxcar
14      Corn.cty                                Covered hopper
15      Cotton.cty                              Boxcar
16      Milk.cty                                Tanker
17      Diesel.cty          Start year: 1890    Tanker
18      Fertilizer.cty      Start year: 1905    Tanker
19      Meat.cty                                Reefer
20      Furniture.cty       Start year: 1880    Boxcar
21      Goods.cty                               Flatcar         (Cargo model 04)
22      Iron.cty                                Open hopper     (Cargo model 11)
23      Logs.cty                                Flatcar         (Cargo model 09)
24      Lumber.cty                              Flatcar         (Cargo model 02)
25      Mail.cty                                Mail car
26      Oil.cty             Start year: 1860    Tanker
27      Paper.cty                               Boxcar
28      Passengers.cty                          Passenger car
        (#29 reserved for "Any Express" icon)

30      Plastic.cty         Start year: 1935    Covered hopper
31      Produce.cty                             Reefer
32      Pulpwood.cty                            Covered hopper
33      Waste.cty           Start year: 1990    Covered hopper
34      Rice.cty                                Covered hopper
35      Rubber.cty          Start year: 1900    Flatcar         (Cargo model 06)
36      Troops.cty          Start year: 1848    Troop car
37      Steel.cty           Start year: 1856    Flatcar         (Cargo model 05)
38      Sugar.cty                               Covered hopper
39      Clothing.cty                            Boxcar
40      Tires.cty           Start year: 1900    Boxcar
41      Uranium.cty         Start year: 1950    Flatcar         (Cargo model 08)
42      Wool.cty                                Boxcar
43      Grain.cty                               Covered hopper
44      Weapons.cty         Start year: 1848    Flatcar         (Cargo model 03)
45      Toys.cty            Start year: 1880    Boxcar

The nature of the cargo is some way connected to the number suffix, which is unique for each commodity (02,03, 09 etc) regardless of the car type used.

Yep.

This implies there are undocumented number slots for hitherto invisible cargos (such as wool, cotton, alcohol etc), which may become activated and visible once we decide to transport them in open wagons and design from scratch their respective bitmap skins?

Now that is an interesting and logical possibility. It would be worth experimenting to see what happens. The game might only allow the default cargo model numbers, but the only way to find out is to try some non-standard numbers with associated custom models.

[sbaros]

Very useful info ! Where was it hidden? in the various documentation stuff ? I hadn't found it in the PJay or Milo notes...

Code: Select all

Note: Cargo icons DDS sprite has spare space for an additional 19 cargoes.
Note: Cargo models 00 and 01 are not used by any cargoes.
============================================    =====================================
Cargo ID's, names, and start years.             Default cargo cars (1.05 standard).
============================================    =====================================
1       Alcohol.cty                             Boxcar
2       Aluminum.cty        Start year: 1910    Flatcar         (Cargo model 07)
3       Ammunition.cty      Start year: 1848    Boxcar
        (#4 reserved for "Any Cargo" icon)
        (#5 reserved for "Any Freight" icon)

6       Automobiles.cty     Start year: 1900    Auto carrier
7       Bauxite.cty         Start year: 1910    Open hopper     (Cargo model 12)
        (#8 was "Beer" during development)

9       Livestock.cty                           Stock car
10      Cheese.cty          Start year: 1880    Reefer
11      Chemicals.cty       Start year: 1905    Tanker
12      Coal.cty                                Open hopper     (Cargo model 10)
13      Coffee.cty                              Boxcar
14      Corn.cty                                Covered hopper
15      Cotton.cty                              Boxcar
16      Milk.cty                                Tanker
17      Diesel.cty          Start year: 1890    Tanker
18      Fertilizer.cty      Start year: 1905    Tanker
19      Meat.cty                                Reefer
20      Furniture.cty       Start year: 1880    Boxcar
21      Goods.cty                               Flatcar         (Cargo model 04)
22      Iron.cty                                Open hopper     (Cargo model 11)
23      Logs.cty                                Flatcar         (Cargo model 09)
24      Lumber.cty                              Flatcar         (Cargo model 02)
25      Mail.cty                                Mail car
26      Oil.cty             Start year: 1860    Tanker
27      Paper.cty                               Boxcar
28      Passengers.cty                          Passenger car
        (#29 reserved for "Any Express" icon)

30      Plastic.cty         Start year: 1935    Covered hopper
31      Produce.cty                             Reefer
32      Pulpwood.cty                            Covered hopper
33      Waste.cty           Start year: 1990    Covered hopper
34      Rice.cty                                Covered hopper
35      Rubber.cty          Start year: 1900    Flatcar         (Cargo model 06)
36      Troops.cty          Start year: 1848    Troop car
37      Steel.cty           Start year: 1856    Flatcar         (Cargo model 05)
38      Sugar.cty                               Covered hopper
39      Clothing.cty                            Boxcar
40      Tires.cty           Start year: 1900    Boxcar
41      Uranium.cty         Start year: 1950    Flatcar         (Cargo model 08)
42      Wool.cty                                Boxcar
43      Grain.cty                               Covered hopper
44      Weapons.cty         Start year: 1848    Flatcar         (Cargo model 03)
45      Toys.cty            Start year: 1880    Boxcar

[Gumboots]

That's stuff I figured out myself. It's from some of my private notes.

[sbaros]

In this case your private notes would be especially welcome for downloading in the central info distribution page, where such stuff is published, provided you actually want to share them.
One of my dreams is the compilation of all Railroad Tycoon III technical guidelines into a Wikipaedia-like, detailed online manual. That's something that I'd like to participate in, but if I must start it myself it may have to wait till I become a pensioner...

[Gumboots]

Oh sure, I don't mind sharing them. I just meant they were notes I didn't get from anywhere else.

[sbaros]

A lot of progress was achieved within few hours. A full analysis will probably take more than a sizable, illustrated article for technical description and guidance of other developers. In short, the findings are as follows:

• a specific commodity is associated to a specific 3D load model through its CTY file after all (serial number is the notorious cty byte 32 value+1). However, NOT ONLY through the CTY, but requiring also a dedicated .3dp model to be provided either from scratch or cloned from an existing one.
• The CargoModels don't use the 00 or 01 identifiers for any cargo because 00 is used by convention at .CTY byte address 32 for invisible cargoes. Therefore, if someone creates a "XYZ_CargoModel01.3dp" for a specific XYZ car type/era, this 3dp will superimpose (mostly invisible inside) the given car type whenever one of these "00" classified cargoes is picked up.
• There is no limit as to how many commodities can be thus made "visible", or which code they must be assigned. At will, all available commodities can be made visible and obtain their own 3dp file(s). Also their corresponding numbering can be completely altered form the default, their IDs are not hard-coded anywhere.
  So, there is no need for a commodity's code to be "hijacked" for use with another one. It is a mystery why Michael R. unnecessarily stole the code from the "Goods.CTY" for the pulpwood loads instead of assigning the latter a new one. It was a first step towards a completely wrong direction. As said above, we CAN shuffle and reallocate all ID codes between commodities but this doesn't mean that we MUST do it. It is best for the compatibility between user-created scenarios, add-ons and versions to adhere to original program's conventions to the maximum possible extent. Otherwise, it is like shuffling the road numbers between locomotives of different classes! The locos will still be operable, but there will be a mess to figure out which one must do what.
  It is unfortunate that this mistake was propagated through the official distribution of "Trainmaster". We must see what can be done for such things.
  As illustrated below, I corrected this in my experimental version of "Trainmaster", assigned an additional code and was able to get BOTH Michael's pulpwood and the original, visible "goods" on adjacent flatcars! He didn't delete the container textures completely after all...
• A practical use of the above in the case of closed wagons can be the creation of small fittings, which will utilise textures from the general Cargomodels bitmap and enable carried loads to be identified from far away, instead of or in addition to the cargoicon stickers on the car sides.
• a use was still not found for these CCT definitions: I removed them all from my Tycoon / Trainmaster folders and so far everything works as previously.

[Gumboots]

A lot of progress was achieved within few hours. A full analysis will probably take more than a sizable, illustrated article for technical description and guidance of other developers. In short, the findings are as follows:

• a specific commodity is associated to a specific 3D load model through its CTY file after all (serial number is the notorious cty byte 32 value+1).
• There is no limit as to how many commodities can be thus made "visible", or which code they must be assigned. At will, all available commodities can be made visible and obtain their own 3dp file(s). Also their corresponding numbering can be completely altered from the default, their IDs are not hard-coded anywhere.

Ok, so if I understand correctly, what you are saying here is that you can enter any value (standard or custom) in byte 32 of the .cty file, and that value + 1 will automatically be used for the relevant CargoModel.3dp.

If I have that right, it's handy to know. Thanks for checking it out.

So, there is no need for a commodity's code to be "hijacked" for use with another one. It is a mystery why Michael R. unnecessarily stole the code from the "Goods.CTY" for the pulpwood loads instead of assigning the latter a new one.

He did it simply for convenience. Since he had moved Goods to one of his custom boxcars, and since he wanted to use part of the CargoModels.dds for his new Pulpwood loads, he thought he might as well use the Goods model ID number to do his new Pulpwood loads. There's nothing particularly wrong with doing it that way. It works.

However, if you have determined that any value at all can be entered in byte 32 of the .cty file, IMO it would make sense to revamp that byte so that all cargoes used their cargo ID number (byte 58 of the ,cty) minus 1 as the value for byte 32. That way all cargo models would be using the cargo ID number, which is also the same as the position on the CargoIcons.dds image. I think should make things easier. In other words...

Code: Select all

Byte 58                     Byte 32
Cargo ID    Cargo name      New values
=======================================
1           Alcohol         00
2           Aluminum        01
3           Ammunition      02

(#4 "Any Cargo" icon on .dds)
(#5 "Any Freight" icon on .dds)

6           Automobiles     05
7           Bauxite         06

(#8 "Beer" icon on .dds - deprecated)

9           Livestock       08
10          Cheese          09
11          Chemicals       10
12          Coal            11
13          Coffee          12
14          Corn            13
15          Cotton          14
16          Milk            15
17          Diesel          16
18          Fertilizer      17
19          Meat            18
20          Furniture       19
21          Goods           20
22          Iron            21
23          Logs            22
24          Lumber          23
25          Mail            24
26          Oil             25
27          Paper           26
28          Passengers      27

(#29 "Any Express" icon on .dds)

30          Plastic         29
31          Produce         30
32          Pulpwood        31
33          Waste           32
34          Rice            33
35          Rubber          34
36          Troops          35
37          Steel           36
38          Sugar           37
39          Clothing        38
40          Tires           39
41          Uranium         40
42          Wool            41
43          Grain           42
44          Weapons         43
45          Toys            44

Or, if that won't work because of the 00 and 01 values, just bump the entire scale so it starts at 02. It's still meeting a consistent formula then, which I think is the main thing.

[*]A practical use of the above in the case of closed wagons can be the creation of small fittings, which will utilise textures from the general Cargomodels bitmap and enable carried loads to be identified from far away, instead of or in addition to the cargoicon stickers on the car sides.

[*]a use was still not found for these CCT definitions: I removed them all from my Tycoon / Trainmaster folders and so far everything works as previously.

The custom fittings idea isn't a bad one, but there is the limitation that everything has to fit on the one image for all cargo models, so the more of them you make, the more likely you are to run into problems with resolution.

And, as I mentioned before, cargo models and cargo icons only work on single cars. That's fine if you are using default models, but for my custom car sets with a lot of double cars (and at least one triple) cargo icons and cargo models are often not relevant anyway.

At the moment I'm not sure about .cct files, but I'll do some testing with and without them to see what happens.

[sbaros]

Serious bug in TrainMaster Meat Packing Plant found and hopefully corrected

Hides are produced whether the Meat Packing Plant has a supply of Livestock or not. This leads me to believe that it has a supply function for Hides as well as the displayed conversion which never produces anything because the profit margin is atrocious.

Actually, the atrocious part was the conversion formula itself after all. I was frustrated with the flooding of the entire Scandinavia base map with Hides and decided to take a deep look at the BCA part. I realized that the creator has mistakenly specified a ZERO value in the corresponding input field for Livestock-to-Hides (something he fortunately didn't do in the other conversion chains. Obviously there is somewhere in the program some error-trapping, otherwise I bet there would have been a "division/0" crash. Nevertheless, the resulting quantities of the product are enormous and ruin the sessions, especially in my effort to work out some improved Tycoon variant(s). I tried several conversion ratios and I think I came up with something quite close to splitting each incoming Livestock delivery into more realistic amounts of Meat, Hides and Fertilizer.
For comparison, after the BCA modification the overall Scandinavia supply at the initial seeding of the base map was reduced to 61 carloads from the previous 756, as if the entire Scandinavian population had been skinned! I guess it is far more reasonable this way. Now, the Hides supply doesn't overshadow the main Meat output, and actually becomes worthwhile only when a frequent in-&-out train service is provided to the factory, which I think is the right thing.
So, this time the "0 to 3" conversion ratio displayed at the factory info box actually corresponded to a real zero input, not just a less-than-1 fractional one!

---

I hope other users examine, verify and perhaps improve this, so that a correction can be placed adjacent to the TrainMaster download, together with warnings for replacement of the original.
This also paves the way to undertake a relevant adoption of the version, that would convert a limited amount of the provided Livestock to equivalent "Wool" for the clothing industry. This is also uploaded here, together with a "Farmstead Cooperative" featuring RulerofRails corrections and adopted for 1.06 as well. It replaces a previous, deleted modification I had uploaded. I consider this to be an important cross-breeding step between Trainmaster and version 1.06
Needless to say, these work under the existing structures of version 1.06, no need for additional 3D models.

[RulerofRails]

My time is a bit limited for a detailed analysis. Setting up industries is a matter of balance. I would propose that when making a change, if you want some review, it's helpful if you have listed the conversion recipe specifics as well as an "expected" real in-game output for each recipe in any multiple conversion recipe buildings.

What I saw in the time I have:
The 1.06 Meat Packing Plant is produce MORE Fertilizer than Meat. the Wool supply is inactive, aka 0.1 per year, non-useful.

The TM Meat Packing Plant is a very low producer of Hides. I would say a non-useful source. Ignore it, look for Logging Camp source. I know that there are problems with Hides demand strength. It just doesn't have enough uses to save it from widespread price weakness.

1.06 Note: Fertilizer in the base game is a rare strategy-plus cargo. Adding a new source decreases rarity. As a by-product of one of the most prevalent conversions (Livestock->Meat) shifts it to a "common" cargo.

[RulerofRails]

I fiddled a bit more with this in my couple spare hours today, to come up with ratio "suggestions." By some comparison of relative cargo prices I came up with these ratios in the background of the TM Liverstock:Meat @ 2:3 ratio:

Livestock:Fertilizer @ 1:3
Livestock:Wool @ 1:6

I ran a half dozen tests, some upgraded, different price points, the average ratio of output achieved for the 3 cargoes was

57% Meat
26% Fertilizer
17% Wool

The question then is: what ratio of cargoes do we want to see?

After this effort I saw some things that remind me again that these settings are INCOMPATIBLE with standard 1.06 scenarios. The problem: low consumption. The achieved conversion ratio is 1:2. This isn't a problem for TM compatibility (didn't do a Hides conversion ratio), as it has used a similar conversion ratio up to this point. 1.06 maps are set for Livestock:Meat @ 1:1 ratio. Half of the Livestock will go to waste.

There is a potential fix of a background demand for Livestock to cover the difference, however this leads to an inaccurate in-game conversion ratio display. In multiple conversion facilities, this information is a bit "misleading" from the outset. Perhaps the displayed outputs can reflect achieved outputs in a clever way. I didn't get time to run some tests for that.

Also, those maps aren't balanced for such a Fertilizer source. Even after 1905, the amount of Fertilizer on a map will still easily be 3-4x normal 1.06 levels and therefore all agricultural products will be greatly in excess. The existing Fertilizer Plant would be rendered largely obsolete.

[sbaros]

Not extremely unrealistic outcome, see here some statistics.
Actually, few readily available scenarios, if any at all, will happen to work smoothly with modifications to the production/consumption chains. They will have to be accordingly modified, hopefully towards a situation closer resembling the real world.
The research goes on...

[sbaros]

It took quite a while until proper, so to say "testing conditions" were achieved in a fictional-themed test map for the concept in discussion. We have a remote slaughterhouse adjacent to a cattle ranch, i.e. with an uninterrupted raw material (unfortunate animals) supply. While meat gets evacuated towards the nearest consumers even before provision of a rail connection, there are no conveniently located consumers for any of the 2 by-products, in other words Hides & Fertilizer are accumulated. We read therefore in the station's waiting list a huge Fertilizer stockpile, 45 times the one for Hides!
It is clearly a situation where fine-tuning is required with several trials and errors, until a plausible ratio between Hides & Fertilizer is reached, and it seems to me that calibrations in the order of decimals will take several testing cycles.
So, the uploads offered above must merely be taken as test-beds for fellow users to experiment with, by no means as definitive suggestions. Still, I find them much more acceptable than the original Trainmaster's distributions

[RulerofRails]

For clarification, were you using or did you try the numbers I posted? Disclaimer on that was that I did the testing in 1.06, and price for Hides maybe is not the same as price for Wool.

[sbaros]

I was using the very same Meat Packing Plant modification uploaded on Apr 11 above. At present, I am testing different Hides / Meat / Fertilizer combinations towards a better-feeling output ratio. It's improving gradually. However, since anyone can conduct their own independent trials, there is no point for me to upload these intermediate experimental Meat Packing BCAs until I am satisfied with the long-term outcome.

---

On a related subject: I don't know if it's mentioned elsewhere, but I found out that saved GMS sessions under a previous BCA setup will still load without the program crashing as long as commodity and industry names have been retained. The pre-existing stockpiles of the various goods are carried over, and production begins to follow the new BCA regime as of reloading.

[sbaros]

The existing Fertilizer Plant would be rendered largely obsolete.

Expectedly, the existing Trainmaster's Fertilizer Plant proved indeed useless and a waste -literally!- of slots. As of today I replaced it with the original version in my experimental Trainmaster installation, this one will perform better I guess.

[sbaros]

The TM Meat Packing Plant is a very low producer of Hides

Yes, almost always. However, in a random seed earlier this week on my fictional testing map, a tannery happened to appear quite close to a Meat Packing Plant (within a large terminal's catchment area) and I was surprised to see the latter dispatching quite a noticeable amount of Hides right from the beginning. So, it seems that some artificial intelligence (A.I.) does make choices after all wherever multiple production options exist. I wonder if other users have experienced and posted more facts, figures and details about this A.I. selective behaviour.

[sbaros]

Is there any justification for the late start of Distilleries, Dairy Processors and Furniture Manufacturers in the original Tycoon distributions? I have not managed to find adequate documentation justifying this. Nedfumpkin has challenged this in his own versions.
Maybe an excuse for the Dairy Processor case could be the late invention of pasteurization, but is it an adequate one ?

[Gumboots]

I think it's largely to provide some progression to the game's industry chain, instead of just having everything enabled from the start.