Cargo & Industry fixes for 1.06

[Stoker]

Currently , Gumboots and myself are working on a patch for 1.06. His focus is on fixing some locomotive functionality and graphics issues, along with adding some new ones, and my part of the project will be fixing the cargo and industry issues with the 1.06 patch, and adding a few new industries along with some mild cargo changes that are not directly related to 1.06 but will add some new options to freshen up the game a bit. Our desire is to make the patch compatible with most, if not all, existing scenarios made for both 1.06 and the original versions of RT3. To make this possible, most existing industries and cargoes must be left intact, although some production changes to certain industries can be introduced and not cause crashes or ruin existing scenarios.

The purpose of this thread is to get community input on the proposed Cargo & Industry changes. To be clear: This project is not a Democracy. The final say of what to include in this patch will be made by the Patch Team. That being said, we are aiming to include as many things that are desired as possible, providing they can actually be done and that they fit in with the overall goals we have. Along those lines I submit the following list of Cargoes in RT3 as of the 1.06 release, along with notes on what I propose to add or change. A list of Industries will be posted in the next post. These lists will be updated as new ideas are included and progress is made. Please feel free to give any suggestions relating to Cargo and Industry that you have. If there is some industry you have always wished to see or an existing one that you think functions incorrectly let me know. If you think the names or production recipes I am proposing could be improved I am open to suggestions for those as well. It appears that a maximum of 16 new industries can be added with this patch in order to leave all existing industries intact. There is a possibility this could be increased to 18 if replacing the "Dummy" "XXX" building/ruler and "Customs House" will not cause problems. A maximum of one cargo can be added, but this requires some testing to make sure it does not cause issues and may not be included. The 1.06 cargoes have the .lng call # and tilde prefix.

Cargo List as of 1.06 :

~4465Ceramics
~4467Concrete Rename this to Cement
~4469Crystals Change the use and name of this cargo to "Sand" to create a new Sand+Coal=Goods production chain that will be available in the starting era.
~4475Dye Change the name of this cargo to "Hides"
~4476Electronics
~4488Ingots Create new industries, including "Jewelry Factory" Recipe:Ingots+Goods=Luxury Goods. Maybe "Mint" as well recipe:Ingots=Luxury Goods, representing coinage
~4493Machinery Create new "Machinery Foundry" (Iron Ore+Coal+Ingots=Machinery) to augment the "Machine Shop" and fix early era broken production chain for Machinery.
~4494Medicine Change this to something more useful rather than so specific. I suggest "Consumer Goods" per its demand structure.
~4505Ore Create a new "Smelter" to use in lieu of the borked Furnace. Recipe: Ore+Coal=Ingots
~4513Rock Create new Industry "Brick Kiln". Recipe: Rock+Coal=Ceramics
Alcohol Create new :Whiskey Distillery. Recipe = Pulpwood+Corn= Alcohol and Pulpwood+Grain=Alcohol.
Aluminum
Ammunition
Automobiles
Bauxite
Cheese Make available at start. Rename to "Packed Food" and create industries which process various crops and meat into it
Chemicals
Clothing Rename to "Textiles"
Coal
Coffee Rename to "Exotic Foods"??
Corn
Cotton
Diesel Rename this to Fuel so as to be less specific
Fertilizer
Furniture Make available at start of scenario. Create small footprint, low production "Furniture Craftsman" for early period. Leave Furniture Factory intact
Goods
Grain
Iron
Livestock
Logs
Lumber
Mail
Meat Create cannery with recipe Meat+Steel= Packed Foods
Milk
Oil
Paper
Passengers
Plastic
Produce
Pulpwood
Rice
Rubber
Steel Make available from start by introducing small production Puddling Furnace
Sugar
Tires
Toys Rename: Luxuries. Available from start. New industry:Jewelry Manufacturer,small footprint,small output. Recipe:Ingots>Luxuries larger industry,large output "Brass Foundry" Ingots+Coal> Luxuries
Troops
Uranium
Waste
Weapons
Wool
New Cargo! I am open to suggestions for this last available cargo slot. I have my own ideas, but would like to hear some others before I toss them out there.

[Stoker]

In addition to the new industries, all 1.06 industries issued using the "Warehouse" building as a temporary placemarker will be assigned a new building.

Industry List as of version 1.06

AluminumMill
AutoPlant
Bakery Possibly add Packaged Food production.
Barracks
Bauxite Mine
Brewery
Chemical Plant
Church
Cinema
Coal Mine
Commercial
ConcretePlant
ConstructionFirm
CustomsHouse
DairyProcessor
DepartmentStore
Distillery
Dummy
Electric Plant
ElectronicsPlant
Farm Corn
Farm Orchard
Farm Rubber
FarmCattle
FarmCoffee
FarmCotton
FarmDairy
FarmDye Renamed as "Tannery". New building based on the Bakery model. Produces Hides (Renamed Dye)
FarmGrain
FarmRice
FarmSheep
FarmSugar
Fertilizer Factory
Furnace
Furniture Factory
Hospital
Hotel Add Textiles demand
House
Iron Mine
Logging Camp
Lumber Mill
MachineShop
Meat Packing Plant
Military Depot
Munitions Factory
Museum
Nuclear Power Plant
Oil Refinery
Oil Well
OreMine
PaperMill
PharmaceuticalPlant
Plastics Factory
Port
PostOffice
Quarry
RadioStation
Recycling Plant
Restaurant Add Alcohol, Canned Food (Cheese), and Meat demand
Retail
Saloon Saloon is the "Call Name" for Tavern Might rename to Saloon. Add Alcohol demand.
SchoolHouse Add Paper demand
Stadium Add Alcohol demand
Steel Mill
Textile Mill
Tire Factory
Tool And Die
Toy Factory
Uranium Mine
Warehouse
Weapons Factory
Windmill

New industries listed below

The preference for the recipes in the new industries is to have recipes requiring at least two Inputs. Industries with one Input>Output can be programmed into one of the ten Warehouses by the scenario maker.

1.Whiskey Distillery Available from start. Building based on Distillery. Recipe: Corn+Pulpwood=2 Alcohol and Grain+Pulpwood=2 Alcohol
2. Smelter Recipe: Ore+Coal=2 Ingots and Ore+ 2 Pulpwood = 2 Ingots
3. Glassworks Building based on Weapons Factory. Available from start. Recipe: Silica+Coal=Goods.
4. Jeweler Available at start. Ingots+Goods=2 Luxuries
5. Brass Foundry Available at start. Recipe: Ore+Coal=Goods and perhaps Ore+2 Pulpwood=Goods
6. Puddling Furnace Recipe: Iron Ore+Coal=Steel
7. Cement Kiln
8. Furniture Craftsman
9. Mint
10. Cannery
11. Machinery Foundry Recipe:Iron Ore+Ingots+Coal=Machinery
12. Kiln Recipe: Rock+Coal=2 Ceramics
13.
14.
15.
16.

[low_grade]

One note: if you're going to change Crystals into Limestone, then it should also be demanded by farms (well, crop/orchard farms, not dairy/cattle/sheep.) Liming is an important part of farming. And you use a lot of it. Actually, to be technically correct, you'd need a Lime Kiln, which came into widespread use with coal (so available at start of game for us) which takes Limestone and Coal and produces Quicklime, which is both demanded by agriculture and with Rocks by Cement plants, and probably by any industry that uses bricks as building materials, as Quicklime is the basis for mortar, as well. But, that would require another cargo, so unless you want Quicklime to be the new cargo, probably just go with the first part of my recommendation, have Limestone demanded by farms. Note that if you do add Quicklime, both it and Limestone will be demanded by farms, probably .02 Limestone and 0.01 Quicklime.

Here's a good article about Lime kilns in Penns in the 1780's-1830's. http://www.monroehistorical.org/article ... kilns.html These were still small, wood-fired kilns, which were replaced by industrial coal fired kilns by the 1830's.

Actually, animal farms would require Limestone, too, since all the hay farmers I know also lime, which then goes to feed cows. But maybe this is corn? No, corn is just a bonus to fatten them up, in order to get the regular production, even without corn the animals are eating something, likely pasture grass and hay in the winter. Which the farmers would lime, so yeah, all farms should demand Limestone, like 0.02.

[Stoker]

Thanks for the suggestion regarding the Lime/Cement issue. In my old King Coal Mod I had indeed created a Lime Kiln. That Mod was aimed at maximizing the Steam Era industries. I am not completely opposed to going with that for the purposes of this patch, but I want some semblance of the original 1.06 cargo chain to remain, and in addition to this is the issue of not being able to create additional Cargoes (maybe one is possible) and (maybe more importantly) there is the issue of breaking previously created scenarios. Working within these constraints, using Lime in lieu of (Portland) Cement then messes up later period scenarios . In the early days (~pre-1900) Quicklime was used directly as mortar when mixed with sand. Later, Mortar was created by mixing a very small amount of Quicklime + Cement (+sand). The purpose of Lime in Mortar is to make it sticky, as Portland Cement has basically no adhesion (except when you don't want it to stick to something- like your tools). The amount of actual Lime used in modern construction is pretty limited- only showing up as part of the formulae of Mortar and Stucco. For these reason's I think it might be best to keep Cement as a cargo for the purposes of this patch, but if and when I resurrect King Coal I will certainly include it. Something I notice is that most people do not know the difference between Cement and Concrete, including the 1.06 development team, unfortunately. As a rule, only Cement is shipped for any distance (in covered hoppers), and then is combined with aggregate (Rock) and water to produce Concrete. The idea of shipping liquid Concrete in tanker cars as is put forth in 1.06 is pretty comical, like something out of a Three Stooges skit : Moe : "OK, you knuckleheads, open up that tanker and pour that Concrete out". Curley: "But Moe, it's all hard!". Adding a demand only aspect to some farms for Limestone is possible, although I am pretty sure it could not be used to increase production like Fertilizer.

[Blackhawk]

Being as you posted a rough idea of what you plan on doing the questions this post will mention may already have thought of and have answers to already.


It sounds like the food idea is similar to TM with multiple buildings producing "food." Think TM has the cannery, bottling plant, cereal factory, candy factory, food processor, and creamery. As well as going with a more generic name for diesel like fuel. I think TM went with petroleum but fuel seems to be a better catch-all name. Similar as well with the textiles vs clothing.

If ceramics is removed from the concrete/cement production chain, it's overall usefulness seems limited. It can be used by the machine shop and demanded by distillery/brewery. This cargo may then need another another industry that would make use of them or increased demand by houses/cities?

If dye becomes hides, what produces hides? and what happens to the dye plantation? Is there any new purpose of hides or is it merely the renaming of dye into something else?

With crystals being re-purposed, that means the electronics factory needs a new recipe.

I can see the logic in renaming medicine to something else more broad. Although consumer goods may be too broad, as it includes autos, clothing, food, etc. Which are all things there are already specific cargoes for, as well as there is already the general cargo "goods." In addition the production chain chemicals to consumer goods makes a little less sense then.

If coffee is renamed to luxury foods, does that mean the coffee plantation now gives off "luxury foods"? I'm not sure I'm fond of the term luxury foods, esp if it's growing on a farm. Although if you went this route and had extra building slots available a vineyard or olive farm or something like that could be used as well as an alternative to the coffee farm for a production building. An alternate idea which I just thought of: What if it becomes something along the lines of cocao as that is a premium crop. And then use a production building to have cocao + sugar and/or milk = food. Off-hand I can't think of much the sugar cargo gets used for other than the distillery, so this would give sugar another potential use in the game.

Toys = luxury goods. I'd name them just luxuries.

[Stoker]

Thanks for your thoughts on this , Blackhawk. I will try to address them all , one by one.

Using less specific names for some very specific ones is an idea that has been around for quite a while, and yes, I am aware of the cargoes used in TM. Keep in mind that this project is not a mod and aims to retain the function of most existing scenarios. The idea here is to open more possibilities instead of having to use something that is overly specific in a scenario and having the player pretend to call it something else.

Ceramics: The demand for Ceramics in most maps is actually pretty large, and I think there would be no problem as far as having Ceramics pile up, even if the Ceramics/Concrete production chain is changed. Many industries, and the Construction Firm demand Ceramics, and it is already a second tier cargo, so having it end here is not unacceptable. I can however, see an industry that would use Ceramics + something else to produce one of the higher priced cargoes like Luxury(ies) Goods, and perhaps replacing Crystals in the recipe for Electronics. I am open to suggestions for an industry or two along these lines.

Dye: Dye is an integral part of textile (and furniture- stain) production, but the quantities used are pretty small, more like a gallon or two per carload of Lumber or Cotton, and having whole tankers of Dye is not realistic. Hides, on the other hand were and still are used in huge quantities in the production of clothing and furniture. The production chain that involves Dye would not change, with the exception of it's production. The Dye farm could be re-buildinged and renamed to represent something like a "Mink Farm" or such. And, of course, you could have a "Nauga" farm producing Naugahide. In addition to this, an additional output of Hides from Meat Packing plants is possible, although this might break some scenarios by making them too profitable. This is something to investigate.

Crystals: Yep, AFAIK , the Electronics Plant is the only industry that currently uses Crystals. A new recipe for Electronics would be in order. Replacing Crystals with Ceramics might work, and this would kill two birds with one stone.

Medicine: I am open to new names for this cargo, but I think it's use is just too limited as is, and the demand already built into Houses makes it ideal to broaden it's use and open up the possibility of some new industries.

Coffee: Renaming this to Luxury Foods or "Exotic Foods" opens up the possibility of using this cargo to represent a lot of different things (Cocoa, Sorghum,Tea, Pepper and other spices, etc.) , instead of just one very specific thing, and does not at all change it's original usage in any scenario, as "Coffee" is indeed a Luxury or Exotic food.

Toys: Naming them simply "Luxuries" is a good idea, I will wash that around and maybe go with it.

[Blackhawk]

Dye: Dye is an integral part of textile (and furniture- stain) production, but the quantities used are pretty small, more like a gallon or two per carload of Lumber or Cotton, and having whole tankers of Dye is not realistic. Hides, on the other hand were and still are used in huge quantities in the production of clothing and furniture. The production chain that involves Dye would not change, with the exception of it's production. The Dye farm could be re-buildinged and renamed to represent something like a "Mink Farm" or such. And, of course, you could have a "Nauga" farm producing Naugahide. In addition to this, an additional output of Hides from Meat Packing plants is possible, although this might break some scenarios by making them too profitable. This is something to investigate.

I definitely agree hides are better than dye. Sounds like you got that covered with making some sort of mink farm to replace the dye plantation. Don't forget to change the train car from a tanker to a box car.
If a Meat Packing Plant can also produce hides, I'm sure they will become too profitable, but I suppose this may be able to be fixed by increasing the price of cattle/livestock. Although, that would then cause the cattle ranches to increase in profitability. It seems that it could be a delicate balancing act that would require some testing.

As for the "Naugas" I had to google that. I can't believe there is even a snopes.com article on whether or not Naugas are real.

[Gumboots]

Suggestion: if you want hides produced by something just have them come out of meat packing plants but assign them a low value or..........

Rename the dye plantation to Tannery and have that make hides.

[Blackhawk]

There are problems in giving hides too low a value though as well. If it is too low, then that will increase the profitability of furniture factories and textile mills. So it may solve the problem of a Meat Packing plant from being too profitable, but it could also increase the profitability of any industry that uses hides.

[Stoker]

Thanks for the suggestions, Gumboots. Interestingly enough, I had renamed and rebuildinged the Dye Farm as "Tannery" (Using the Bakery Building) in my Mile High & Rising scenario, which was reverse engineered from my King Coal experiment map, using regular 1.06 cargoes and industries to represent those I had made for KC. I will pencil Tannery in as the solution for replacing the Dye Farm. Adding Hides production to the Meat Packing Plant is tricky, and will most likely not be done, although I may experiment with it. I want to avoid messing with the prices for cargoes if possible, as these have a cascading effect and then I would have to chase this effect to the next industry, like Textile Mill and Furniture Factory in the case of Hides (Dye).

Please keep the ideas coming folks, it is easiest to implement ideas at this stage, rather than later when things are already in production.

[AdmiralHalsey]

Quick question. Will changing all this stuff still make it compatible with current maps for 1.06?

[Stoker]

Quick question. Will changing all this stuff still make it compatible with current maps for 1.06?

As mentioned a couple times already in this thread,the goal is to make this patch backwards compatible with all existing maps, including versions prior to 1.06. Depending on exactly what changes are made, some existing scenarios might require enabling one of the newly created industries to ensure a complete production chain. Among the prospects for this are changes to the Cement Plant and Furnace.

[Blackhawk]

The idea is that 1.06 should play it in, but maps built in 1.06.X or whatever this is going to be called, will not play in 1.06. That said there may be some maps were I could see it only playing well in 1.06 and not 1.06.X. For example, if the map had a haul crystals goal as the crystals may have represented something else. I can't think of it off the top of my head but I thought Oilcan made a map like that. Now that crystals will be renamed and used in another industry it would be more difficult to haul them as they would be used up by industries. So, while the map would play, it wouldn't play as originally intended.

[Gumboots]

Ok, further thoughts: if worried about meat packing plants being too profitable (if producing hides) there are possible ways around that too. You could always increase the purchase price of the meat packing plant. That wont affect spawining or AI's and will just make the price offset the profit for human players. You could also tweak production levels since textile mills will run without dye/hides anyway, so production and therefore profit doesn't need to be that high, or you could make the meat packing plant demand some amount of a pricey cargo (ie: machinery or steel) to boost production.

Also, on another tangent, I'm a bit wary of getting too generic with cargo names. It could lead to maps feeling too similar, like you ship a lot of Generic Stuff A, which would be terribly exciting. You'd also have to watch production and consumption of Generic Stuff A if several buildings are producing it. Could lead to gluts and price crashes.

[Stoker]

The idea is that 1.06 should play it in, but maps built in 1.06.X or whatever this is going to be called, will not play in 1.06. That said there may be some maps were I could see it only playing well in 1.06 and not 1.06.X. For example, if the map had a haul crystals goal as the crystals may have represented something else. I can't think of it off the top of my head but I thought Oilcan made a map like that. Now that crystals will be renamed and used in another industry it would be more difficult to haul them as they would be used up by industries. So, while the map would play, it wouldn't play as originally intended.

The only two maps specifically using Crystals I can think of are "Crystal Cotton" where "Crystals" are some vague unknown cargo that is consumed by programmed warehouses, and the other is a Chile scenario that uses Crystals to represent "Potash", so changing the name to Limestone is not a big deal there either. In both of these cases the scenario will still function exactly the same, just the name of "Crystals" will appear in the game as "Limestone" instead.

And yes, scenarios made with this patch will not be playable in previous versions *unless they were made using none of the new assets.

[Blackhawk]

Ok, further thoughts: if worried about meat packing plants being too profitable (if producing hides) there are possible ways around that too. You could always increase the purchase price of the meat packing plant. That wont affect spawining or AI's and will just make the price offset the profit for human players. You could also tweak production levels since textile mills will run without dye/hides anyway, so production and therefore profit doesn't need to be that high, or you could make the meat packing plant demand some amount of a pricey cargo (ie: machinery or steel) to boost production.

While the initial price to buy may go up, it seems like the prices of industries generally roughly end where the profits are ~10% of the overall cost of the industry, unless there is an initial base price that may need to be increased. I suppose the base price could be increased to something like 2.5-3mil, but if it's too high you now preclude people from buying it early in the game, and I could see that having a significant effect on 1.06 scenarios in cases where a meat packing plant was the best industry to buy into early in the game.

While it might make sense to have hides come from a meat packing plant, for the sake of not messing too much with prior 1.06 scenarios, it is probably best just to substitute hides for dye, and the dye plantation with a tannery and leave it at that.

[Stoker]

Ok, further thoughts: if worried about meat packing plants being too profitable (if producing hides) there are possible ways around that too. You could always increase the purchase price of the meat packing plant. That wont affect spawning or AI's and will just make the price offset the profit for human players. You could also tweak production levels since textile mills will run without dye/hides anyway, so production and therefore profit doesn't need to be that high, or you could make the meat packing plant demand some amount of a pricey cargo (ie: machinery or steel) to boost production.

Also, on another tangent, I'm a bit wary of getting too generic with cargo names. It could lead to maps feeling too similar, like you ship a lot of Generic Stuff A, which would be terribly exciting. You'd also have to watch production and consumption of Generic Stuff A if several buildings are producing it. Could lead to gluts and price crashes.

I should not have tossed out the possibility of adding Hides production to Meat Packing Plants, although this is of course a logical place to produce them. I really do not want to start going through changing the entire price structure and production chain. My intent is to tie up some loose ends, not produce more of them.

As far as generic cargo naming, many scenarios already use specifically named cargoes to represent something else. Coffee for Tea is probably the most common of these situations. Having a scenario that states that "Exotic Food" is Tea is a lot easier on the psyche than having to see "Coffee" every time the cargo is looked at, IMO. Residents of the (former) British Empire (yourself included ) should appreciate this particular name change. Also keep in mind that I am only proposing this for Cheese, Coffee, Clothing, and Toys and maybe one or two more.

[Gumboots]

Man I don't drink tea and totally love coffee. I'm fine with it the way it is.

Honestly, I'd prefer the current names for the ones you just mentioned, or most of them anyway. I like cheese and coffee.

[Stoker]

Ya, but when was the last time you saw a trainload of Cheese? Or Coffee? I drink Coffee all day every day, and last night I put away a whole wheel of Brie, but limiting scenarios to these overly specific items gets really old. 11 years old to be exact. And think of the diets these poor Tycoononauts have: Milk, Meat, Cheese, Alcohol, and Coffee, with some occasional "Produce" . I would hate to be packed into a Passenger car with a bunch of these poor fellows, it would not be pleasant. I think loosening up the cargo names offers some new ideas to be put forth as far as scenario's goes.

[Gumboots]

Fair nuff. Will go with the flow on this.