General management strategies

RRT3 Map & Scenario Strategies and Beta Test Reviews.
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Gumboots
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General management strategies Unread post

Apparently I went and put my foot into a long-running debate here, that being "To caboose or not to caboose". There are a couple of other things I usually do with regard to train management too, which I gather are not normal for a lot of people. Thought we might as well kick ideas around a bit.

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Ok, cabooses. I use them all the time. They seem to work for me. I've tried running trains with them and without them. I haven't got any hard and fast figures all tabled up (might run some comparisons when I have time) but I always seem to have more reliable trains with them. This may be partly because they aren't as heavy as a loaded freight car. Any reduction in load is going to help reliability a bit, so hauling 7 freight cars and a caboose would be a bit easier on the locomotive than hauling 8 freight cars.

That doesn't seem to be a complete explanation, though. I usually run "any cargo", so it's common to have express and freight mixed, and I still seem to get some benefit from the caboose. I have noticed that the reliability bar shows a marked improvement when the train is loading and the caboose goes on. It seems to be in line with the stated 50% reduction in breakdown probablilty. I have also noticed that if I run a new train with 8 cars and no caboose, its reliability bar deteriorates a lot faster. This is not reversed by later maintenance or changes in consist. It seems that once a loco is stressed to the point of becoming less reliable there is nothing you can do to fix it (apart from replacement).

I'm wondering if some people may be a tad confused by the stated probability of breakdown and the results shown in the game. Tossing a coin is a good analogy. A lot of people think that if you have tossed a coin four times and got heads all four times, the chance of getting tails with the next toss must be greater. It isn't greater, though. It's still exactly the same: 50%. Probability only tells you how many times you should get a certain result if you do an infinite number of trials. Tossing a coin one million times and getting all heads is perfectly possible (although it would be exceedingly rare) and does not change the probability of getting heads or tails for the next toss. It's still 50% for either.

What I'm thinking is that if you have a loco which is showing a 25% chance of breakdown, the natural thing is to expect that it will break down once every four trips. I think the game is using probability the way it should, which instead means that for every trip there is a one in four chance that the train will break down, but this says absolutely nothing about the previous trip or the next one. If someone expects that they can figure out when a train "should" break down and it doesn't, they may think that the stated probability is not correct. The only way of knowing for sure would be to play the exact same scenarios several times each, with and without cabooses, and tally up the crashes and breakdowns after each game finished.

Has anyone ever done this? I haven't yet, but I'm curious.

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Which sorta leads to the next thing: how many crashes and breakdowns are acceptable? I always want to minimise them, which influences how I play. The way I figure it, any time I have a crash it will probably cost me a minimum of 300K. That's at least 100K for the crashed loco, probably 100K on average for the load, and at least another 100K to buy a new loco. If the crashed train significantly delays another train on the same line, you can probably add another 100K or so to that total. If your locos are more than 100K a pop that will hurt more too. I think it's fair to value each crash at between 300 and 600K, which is getting quite significant. Breakdowns I figure cost you roughly half as much as a crash. No capital costs, but the several month's delay in turnover will hurt. Given that the last car in the train will be the lowest valued one, I think there is (in general) a good case for skipping it in favour of better reliability and running a caboose.

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The other thing I'm fussy about is maintenance sheds. I hardly ever follow the AI's standard practice of just plonking them halfway between stations. I might do it very occasionally if the run is long enough, but even then the train will be scheduled to stop at the shed. Just assuming the train will stop when it needs oil has always given me worse results. The problem is that if the train has even 51% oil, it will naturally go straight past the shed without stopping. This can mean that by the time it gets back to the shed on the return run it has been out of oil for ages, and that will definitely trash its reliability. I've seen this many times with AI trains. They will frequently be running low on oil, even if they aren't actually out of it, and their reliability bar will be looking pretty grim.

I've noticed when checking my own locos that whenever the oil gets below 50%, the reliability bar rapidly starts getting worse. 50% seems to be a break point for deterioration. The game may specifically say that being totally out of oil will make things worse, but it doesn't say that running at <50% oil will not make things worse. IOW, I think this is coded in as a sneaky bit. ;-)

Because of this, my trains are always scheduled to stop at all maintenance sheds and water towers. It's a bit of a nusiance to set up, but you usually only have to do it once for each train, so I think it's worth the effort. Sometimes I will let them go a very little bit under 50% oil on a long run if it means they can get there in one go, but I always keep a close eye on any such trains and replace them earlier than normal. I don't so much mind if a train runs out of water towards the end of a long run, provided it is close to its destination and is on the flat or heading downhill. That doesn't hurt reliability at all, and makes no significant difference to delivery time since it will coast down to a lower speed rather than stopping suddenly.

Since I'm scheduling my trains to stop at all maintenance buildings anyway, I almost always put them on spurs next to a station. I do this even if the scenario doesn't set a speed goal. It just doesn't make sense to me to stop a train that is going full knacker if it will get to the other end in one go. The acceleration time for a fully loaded freight train is abysmal, while if it goes the the sheds after unloading it will take off like a rocket. Result: faster turnaround and less congestion. It might cost me a little bit extra in spur track, but I think this is outweighed (or at the very least equaled) by the better turnover.
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Re: General management strategies Unread post

I don't like train crashes for about the same reasons you give: too frequent, too costly and they become annoying. I turn off train crashes in all the games that I create. There are other, better ways to place temporary hardships on a player. One could always start a new game by going into the map editor and turning off train crashes.

I have never spent much time studying the relationship between maintenance, cabooses and train reliability. I recall Hawk mentioning earlier that a train will not stop for oil/water/sand until it reaches 50% or less of its reserve (said another way, it won't refill until its tank is half full or less). It would not take too much effort to set up a 'test map' with two cities and run a single train for 20 years with a caboose verse no caboose and then again with a spur shed verse an in-line shed. It would be interesting to see if the number of breakdowns and the reliability scale varies between trial runs.
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Gumboots
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Re: General management strategies Unread post

I don't mind having crashes in the game. Trains do crash occasionally, so it's realistic to have the odd crash here and there. I just like to keep them to a minimum (as would any real railroad). If I get more than three over a 25 year scenario I know something is going wrong somewhere. Often I get by with fewer than that. By the time it happens the game is usually sufficiently advanced that it's no real hardship, merely a minor irritation.

Hawk is right about locos not refilling until any resource is below 50%. I've checked that one myself several times. That can lead to erratic oil and water levels if you just plonk down sheds in the middle of a run and expect things to work. TBH I'm not much interested in testing the difference between shed-on-spurs and sheds-on-runs. I just cannot see the point of the latter, unless having to schedule the extra stops particularly bugs you. It bugs me a lot less than the alternatives, so I just do it. Only takes a minute, and it does make for faster services.

I should have my new copy of RRT3 early next week. What I think I will do is test three 25 year scenarios, with three different variations each. This should give a large enough sample size for the results to have some credibility. Probability needs a decent sample size if the data is meant to be meaningful. Just testing one train for 20 years is not going to give you nearly as good a picture as running three entire railroads for 25 years.

The three variations will be:

1/ The way I usually do things, which is cabooses on all trains and either 6 or 7 other cars, depending on terrain.

2/ Same number of other cars, but no cabooses on any trains. This should make for a more reliable service if the caboose does not increase reliability, because not hauling a caboose will reduce the loads on the locomotive (I believe a caboose is roughly equal to one express car load). If the reliability is not increased, or if it decreases, then obviously a caboose does increase reliability.

3/ No cabooses, but one extra ordinary car on the consists (ie: 7 cars or 8, depending on terrain). Experience tells me that this will be worse for reliability, but it should be interesting to see how much worse it really is.

So, if I get the results for the three scenarios and the three variations of each, then correlate number of crashes and breakdowns with number of loads hauled, that should give a good indication of how effective a caboose is (or isn't, as the case may be). :-D

I think I'll use Australia, Mexico and Italy for the test cases. They are three of my favourites anyway, so it wont be a chore playing them several times. They have varyng terrain and run distances, different locomotive options, large enough networks to give good sample sizes, and they all use the sorts of trains that interest me (fairly well-developed steam). Will let you know how it goes.

*ETA: Oh and I'll be using Expert setting.
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Gumboots
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Re: General management strategies Unread post

Gumboots wrote:Hawk is right about locos not refilling until any resource is below 50%. I've checked that one myself several times. That can lead to erratic oil and water levels if you just plonk down sheds in the middle of a run and expect things to work. TBH I'm not much interested in testing the difference between shed-on-spurs and sheds-on-runs. I just cannot see the point of the latter, unless having to schedule the extra stops particularly bugs you. It bugs me a lot less than the alternatives, so I just do it. Only takes a minute, and it does make for faster services.
I thought I should clarify something as I notice that are questions about this in other threads. Yes, if left to their own devices, trains wont stop at maintenance sheds or water towers if they have more than 50% of oil, water or sand. It is precisely because of this that I never leave them to their own devices. They just aren't smart enough to know what is good for them. :roll:

The way the game is modelled goes like this, as far as I can tell. Running out of oil trashes reliability. No suprises there. Everyone knows this. Now from what I know of steam locomotives (which is not a lot, regardless of how much I like them) they have total loss oil systems. Someone who knows more can correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I think the lubrication points are just oiled as they need it, and the lubricant is not recirculated back to a sump. For a system like that, as long as there is some oil in reserve reliability should not be compromised.

It's different for diesel and electric trains. In real life, if you run a heavily loaded diesel with its sump half empty or worse, this is definitely very bad for reliability. The oil will run much hotter, and will have a much higher concentration of contaminants. To make diesels last, you need to run them with full sumps and clean oil. Same goes for electric motors as far as I know. What this means is that the game really should have two different forms of modelling reliability: one for a total loss system (any oil at all is fine) and one for a recirculating system (you'd better have plenty of it and keep it clean).

What I think they have done is only model the game for the latter. IOW, it is assumed that all trains will behave like diesels when it comes to assessing maintenance. I've made a habit of keeping close checks on reliability simply because crashes and breakdowns irk me. IF the oil starts dropping below 50%, the reliability bar does rapidly get worse and (not suprisingly) the train will be less reliable in service during the game. Since the train wont naturally fill itself up until it is below 50%, I always force it to fill before it gets to that point. Usually this works in well with the length of runs. The usual thing for me to do with steam engines is two water stops for every one maintenance stop. That way I'm getting good reliability without wasting too much time and resources.

From OilCan's PDF guide:
CHAPTER 6. The Tycoon Phase of the Game

The start of the third and final phase of the game, the Tycoon Phase, is marked by several signs (you don‟t need to see all these signs to be in the third phase):

You lay rail, buy stations and add trains with no real consideration of cost
Your big cities have two stations (or really need two)
Your company cash inflow is not an issue. It climbs upward in big jumps.
You are wondering “what is left on this map that I can do?”
Your train list is unwieldy and you are commonly replacing crashed trains
I don't get that last one. Ever. Even if I am running 100 trains, I am never commonly replacing crashed trains. I am only ever replacing them occasionally. If anyone is finding themselves having to commonly replace crashed trains, I suggest that they take a close look at their maintenance scheduling.

Try making those trains do what they should be doing. As an example, take the initial stages of the Italy scenario. I'll often start in Venice and lay track to Trieste and Verona, with a train going Venice-Trieste and a second train going Venice-Verona. If I were to do it the way the AI does it, I'd have a maintenance shed and a water tower on each run, and the trains would have to stop and start at the maintenance sheds and water towers when they were fully loaded (which is slowwwwwwwwwwwwwww), and the intervals at which they naturally stopped at those points would be erratic (not good for reliability).

I don't do it like that. I put the maintenance shed and the water tower on a spur off Venice. I make the spur as short as possible and put the maintenance shed and water tower as close together as they will go. This costs me about 30k in spur track, but saves me 130K because I don't need a second shed or tower, so I end up 100k ahead. The water tower is placed closest to the station since it is visited twice as often. The trains are scheduled like this:

Venice > Trieste > Venice > water tower (use Ctrl+click to set) > Venice > Trieste > Venice > water tower > maintenance shed (use Ctrl+click to set)

Venice > Verona > Venice > water tower > Venice > Verona > Venice > water tower > maintenance shed

Ok, so I have to set nine stops per train instead of two. I only have to do it once though, and the train will be in service for 20 years or so. I'm not worried about setting a few extra stops once if it gives me a better result long term. When I extend out to Milan, all I need is an extra water tower at Milan. Then I can have the second train rescheduled to go like this:

Venice > Verona > Milan > water tower > Milan > Verona > Venice > water tower > maintenance shed

and a third train doing this:

Venice > Milan > water tower > Milan > Venice > water tower > maintenance shed

By now I'm about 170K ahead of the way the AI does it, because I'm buying fewer towers and sheds. I have faster turnaround, because trains don't have to start from sheds and towers fully loaded. I have better reliability, because every train is getting exactly the servicing it needs when it needs it. This works really well for me, and it's how a real railroad would be run. In reality you would not go merrily steaming past a maintenance shed if it was necessary to visit one. It would be scheduled as part of your trip. Any railroad that relied on tossing coins to see if maintenance would be done would be a railroad that wasn't in business for long. As far as I can tell, the game is coded so that taking the extra care to set up your maintenance properly will give you tangible benefits, just as it would for a real railroad.
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Re: General management strategies Unread post

Ok, have done the first test for teh cabeesi. Aint doing them all at once. :-P

I thought about using cheats for cash, just to get a big railroad running immediately for the maximum amount of testing time, but decided against it. I figured the real question is "What advantage can I expect over the course of an actual game?" so better to just play it from scratch without cash cheats.

Just so you know what the deal is, this is for the Italy scenario on Expert setting:

Started running trains in January 1950 (need that industry base first). Game end was January 1971. Trains ran for up to 21 years, depending on the train.

Started with all Kriegsloks. Ended up with 4 Class 01's to replace crashed Kriegsloks, plus the remaining 30 Kriegsloks.

Oldest Kriegslok at game end was 21 years old. Youngest train was < 1 years.

Once I bought a locomotive I didn't replace it unless it crashed. Usually I wont run anything older than about 15 years for Kriegsloks, but since this was a reliability test I figured might as well run them 'til they drop.

Servicing was done according to the BS in the previous post. Trains were run with 6 cars + caboose on hilly runs (up to 6% in spots) and 7 cars + caboose on "flat" runs (nothing over 3%). Mixed auto consist for all trains.

Results were:

Loads hauled - 3913
Load miles - 336420
Crashes - 4
Breakdowns - 29

Loads hauled per crash - 978
Load miles per crash - 84105

Loads hauled per breakdown - 135
Load miles per breakdown - 11601

I have the January 1950 industry base saved, so will run a comparison without teh cabeesi later and try to duplicate the routes and loads as much as possible. (0!!0)
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Re: General management strategies Unread post

Ok, did a Mexico test case last night. This is much the same conditions as the Italy test, and has a caboose on all trains.

Trains ran from January 1877 to January 1895. Ended up with 29 Consolidations (oldest - 18 years) and 16 Dukes (oldest - 16 years) and 1 Shay (2 years old).

Loads hauled - 5275
Load miles - 531925
Crashes - 1
Breakdowns - 21

Loads hauled per crash - 5275
Load miles per crash - 531925

Loads hauled per breakdown - 251
Load miles per breakdown - 25330

This makes sense to me. I've generally found that Consolidations and Dukes tend to be a bit more reliable than Kriegsloks, and TBH in the Italy scenario I was overloading some of the Kriegsloks a bit. Also, the trains in this scenario didn't have to run quite as long as the trains in the Italy scenario, so were less worn average.

If anyone wants to run their own comparisons and wants to check out the saves for these games, let me know and I'll zip them.
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Hear ye ! Hear ye! The caboose does reduce breakdowns by 50%, just like it's supposed to. !**yaaa

Ok, so I haven't replayed Mexico and Italy without cabooseseses yet, just because I was a bit bored with Mexico and Italy. Will do them later.

However I have just done two tests cases (caboose and no caboose) for the south east Austraila scenario. Not that I'm biased towards Australia or anything. :mrgreen:

Results:

First test with caboose on all trains

Trains run from July 1959 to January 1975 (15 1/2 years).

At end of game had 5 of Northern 4-8-4 (9 years old to 15 years old) and 1 of Class 01 (7 yo) and 2 of Challenger (8 yo) and 38 of Class QJ (1 yo to 13 yo).

Total loads hauled - 6465
Total load miles - 589739
Number of crashes - 4
Number of breakdowns - 23

Loads per crash - 1616
Loads per breakdown - 281

Load miles per crash - 147435
Load miles per breakdown - 25641

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Second test with no caboose on any train

Trains run from July 1959 to January 1975 (15 1/2 years).

Routes and trains and consists were chosen to match the first test as closely as possible, given the random seeding of the game.

At end of game had 5 of Northern 4-8-4 (all 15 years old) and 2 of Challenger (6 yo) and 37 of Class QJ (1 yo to 14 yo).

Total loads hauled - 5358
Total load miles - 503307
Number of crashes - 2
Number of breakdowns - 43

Loads per crash - 2679
Loads per breakdown - 125

Load miles per crash - 251654
Load miles per breakdown - 11705

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Ok, so it looks like the number of crashes has no correlation. The game never says that cabooses reduce crashes, and it may be that crashes are purely random.

The number of breakdowns without a caboose is almost exactly double what was recorded with a caboose, just like the game says it should be. Loads and load miles without caboose are a bit less, but breakdowns are still double. I did a rough calculation of how much the extra breakdowns would cost. Assuming the delays to traffic cost about 150k/breakdown that's about 3 million in lost revenue.

Can you make that up by hauling an extra car of cargo? Maybe. I think it would depend on the circumstances. Going off total freight and express revenue for the second game, each load had an average gross value of just under 14k. Assuming each train will pull an average of five cars (they wont be at full load all the time), that's 1072 trains.

If you assign an extra car on each one, then if the extra loads are available all the time, in theory that could add just under 15 million to total revenue. However, the heavier loads are also going to increase breakdowns and crashes, which will cut into that theoretical 15 million. The extra loads may not be available all the time anyway. Also, the last car in the train is always the least valuable one. On average it's probably worth closer to 6k or 7k instead of 13.

So maybe you could in theory make an extra 15 million, but if the last cars are less valuable maybe that's only 7 or 8 million, and if the train wouldn't be running with a full consist anyway (just because the loads weren't available at the time) then less, and if breakdowns and crashes increase due to the extra load then trim the theoretical profit some more, and you're already carrying a 3 million penalty just for the extra breakdowns caused by not having a caboose.

Short version: I don't think there's much in it with regard to profit at the end of the game, so it comes down to whether you like breakdowns or cabooses. Take your pick.
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Re: General management strategies Unread post

Thank you for the insightful analysis Gumboots, especially your comparison of the cost of fewer breakdowns vs. extra cargo. In the end it looks like the choice of adding a caboose is going to be scenario specific. In scenarios with an abundance of cargoes, you're probably better off hauling the extra car of stuff, whereas in scenarios where cargo is at a premium, it might be wiser to add the caboose. !$th_u$! !$th_u$!
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Re: General management strategies Unread post

Yes, thanks for the data from the test runs. It helps answer a question about the usefulness of cabooses which has been kicked around for years.

You make two great points 1) that the loss in revenue from breakdowns is a sizable sum of money and reducing breakdowns is important enough to pay attention to, and 2) on average most trains run with less than a full consist so adding a caboose does not really count against the number of cars.

Well done! !!clap!!
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Re: General management strategies Unread post

To throw more variables in to add to the debate:

Many of the steam engines don't have great reliability. I wonder if the same results hold true for some of the diesels and electrics when they come along and are more reliable. In one Trainmaster game I remember using cabooses on my E3's as they only had average reliability, and would frequently break down without a caboose. Yet when I built SD9s, with excellent reliability, I often went with 8 cars rather than a caboose.

There may also be the possibility that with faster diesels and electric locomotives you'll have less overall locomotives which means when one does break, there may be less trains that get delayed and lose money from the delay. On the other hand, because fewer locomotives are doing the work of what many used to do, a breakdown could be costly in that goods in a station are now sitting there longer and may disappear or be used up before you can get to them.

I think in general my game play has me using a caboose for most steam engines (with the occasional 8 car load as needed, or early in a game when 8 loads are critical for the extra money, and the engine is new and has a lower breakdown chance. Then with diesels and electrics it varies on their reliability factors and age as to whether I use one or not.
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Re: General management strategies Unread post

Yup, I only play steam anyway just because I like steam trains and it is a game after all. I do tend to choose the most reliable locomotives available in the scenario, just because regardless of how "ultra cool" a loco may be it wont haul stuff if it aint running. In practice this tends to be "above average", "good" or "very good" reliability rating. Northern 4-8-4's are "very good" and Class QJ is "good" if my currently caffeine-deprived brain is working correctly.

Had another thought re that theoretical 15 million. That was based on average gross value per load. In terms of game results what matters is the net value, not the gross. The whole company seems to run at a bit under profit = 50% revenue, give or take. That would mean that 15 million gross would equate to 7 million profit if the railway side of the company has the same profitablity as the industry side (which, quite honestly, it doesn't). Throw the other already-mentioned factors into the mix as well, and I have a suspicion that most of the time there will be a slight edge in favour of having a caboose. I'll keep running them anyway. :)

ETA: Oh I have thought about the profitability or otherwise of the actual railway side of the company. These observations are for Expert setting and may not apply to other levels.

I've noticed that when things are well along in the game, the company profit as a whole is about half of the income listed. Thing is, that income includes industry profits as one of its categories, along with freight and express revenue. Industry profits are just that: profits. All the other maintenance and overheads, etc that are listed below are mostly for the railway side of the company, and usually add up to around the same amount as the freight and express revenue.

This has led me to think that the railway is basically just window dressing and doesn't really make any money. I don't really think it's that simple though, because as every beginner knows it is possible to make some money just with rail. I know that the railway system does make the company's industries more profitable, but on the other hand you could just take all the money (lots) invested in the railway and invest that in more industry. That would mean some of your industries were less profitable, but you'd have more of them sooner.

I do remember that before I discovered how to use industry ( far be it from me to actually read the instructions :mrgreen: ) I could never crack gold with all steam in the Italy scenario. I can't remember what difficulty setting I was using back then, but I always got stuck at around 25 million CBV regardless of what I tried. The other day when I did a test run on Italy I ended up with about 72 million CBV, so I think it's fair to say that (in a lot of scenarios) using industry effectively will roughly triple your bottom line compared to just using rail.
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Gumboots wrote:This has led me to think that the railway is basically just window dressing and doesn't really make any money. I don't really think it's that simple though, because as every beginner knows it is possible to make some money just with rail.

The other day when I did a test run on Italy I ended up with about 72 million CBV, so I think it's fair to say that (in a lot of scenarios) using industry effectively will roughly triple your bottom line compared to just using rail.
Rails and trains make "fast" profits that tend to decrease over time; the primary way to keep rails profitable is to continue expansion. As cargoes are delivered about the map, demands generally decrease, leading to lower profits from subsequent deliveries (except when supplying industries whose products are quickly removed). Only by expanding into new areas with higher demands can rail profits keep up with direct costs (track/station cost, overhead, maintenance, interest, etc.) On the other hand, profitable industries provide slower, but more reliable and longer term, income. Having a good base of reliable and profitable industries is an almost essential part of just about all scenarios. Not only does it provide steady cash flow, but if initiated at the start of a scenario can do wonders in terms of boosting stock price early on in a scenario. Of course, the final goals of the scenario will dictate the balance between industry versus rail/train expenditures.
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Re: General management strategies Unread post

Well I think that's oversimplifying a bit too. Take a common start to a game. Say you have a bunch of logging camps that have almost no demand for their logs and pulpwood. Price might be anywhere from zero to $5, and each camp will have a stockpile. If you plonk a sawmill in the middle of the bunch, you can get astronomical profits initially but they will rapidly decrease once local demand is sated and prices for raw materials increase.

This is analogous to exapnding a rail system, in that in both cases you are exploiting a massive and temporary price differential. With the sawmill example you're doing it without involving rail, because the huge temporary price difference is between local raw materials cost and local finished product value. With the rail expansion example, the huge temporary price difference is between local prices for some item in widely separated areas. So in both cases you will get fast and high profits initially which will then decrease to a lower and more constant level.

The thing is that industry only stays profitable as long as local demand is high enough. With high production, that often means removing a large amount of the production and sending it somewhere else. That seems to be the primary purpose of the railway system in terms of overall company profitability. IOW, the trains only really exist to keep the industry profitable, so the fact that railway costs write off railway profits doesn't matter as long as industry profits stay high. However, this does mean it is critical to own as much of that industry as you possibly can if you want to get the profits.
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Re: General management strategies Unread post

Gumboots wrote:Well I think that's oversimplifying a bit too. Take a common start to a game. Say you have a bunch of logging camps that have almost no demand for their logs and pulpwood. Price might be anywhere from zero to $5, and each camp will have a stockpile. If you plonk a sawmill in the middle of the bunch, you can get astronomical profits initially but they will rapidly decrease once local demand is sated and prices for raw materials increase.
I have not found this to be true in most cases with certain industries. Yes the profits are high at the start, but even after several years of production, I get at least 20% return on investment (ROI) from most Lumber Mills. Even with upgraded mills, in most cases, the Lumber migrates away from the mill fast enough so that the mill still remains quite profitable; even moreso if you can plonk a Furniture Factory or Toy Factory in the Lumber stream. Same seems to be true for Textile Mills. I've had cases where I've put three upgraded Textile Mills out in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by Cotton Farms and Wool Farms, and all three of them make $400K/yr or more. Of course it gets even better if you can build a rail to them and haul away the Clothing.
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OilCan
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Re: General management strategies Unread post

I think you are both saying the same thing - but from different perspectives. You are both saying that industry profit does indeed depend on the game's demand gradient (and I throw in materials cost as well but let's ignore that for now). There is no doubt that a constant, robust demand will keep an industry humming with high profits. Wolverine makes a good point that well placed industry(ies) is critical to ensuring a constant, robust demand - location, location, location. Gumboots makes an excellent point that there are ever changing conditions in a game which affect demand: such as recessions, saturation of markets and rivals.

I've had industries which took off and never slowed down in profits as well as industries which had good years and bad years despite everything I did to pamper it (paper mills come immediately to mind) -- most often in the same game. Booming industries will cause your share price to rise steadily but only to a point. One has to go back to their rail system and upgrade engines, add trains, double track, clear congestion points and expand to new cities in order to get a sluggish share price to start moving upwards again. (Plus buy back some shares every now and then.)

Gumboots brings up an interesting point that building rail systems seem to be secondary to building industry in order to become a tycoon. I admit that in some games this could easily be true. Once could acquire a huge company book value without laying a single rail. That's why when one develops a game it is a good idea to force the player to build rails for reasons other than profit: connect far away cities, haul goods to a certain area, build X amount of track and such.
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Re: General management strategies Unread post

Wolverine@MSU wrote:I have not found this to be true in most cases with certain industries. Yes the profits are high at the start, but even after several years of production, I get at least 20% return on investment (ROI) from most Lumber Mills./
Sure, which is what I meant by "fast and high profits initially which will then decrease to a lower and more constant level". To phrase it another way, the effects of expanding industry into a new area (by building it there) are similar to the effects of expanding a rail network into a new area. A textile mill might generate 400k/year for the first year or two, then settle down around 200. A new train run might pull in 300K/year/train for the first year or two, then settle down around 150.
Of course it gets even better if you can build a rail to them and haul away the Clothing.
Yup. The difference is that the income shown in your balance sheet is profit for your industry (yay!) but is revenue for your trains. Subtract all your railway maintenance, fuel, overheads, etc from your train revenue and see what's left. Not much. That's why in general I think it's fair to say that the trains' primary purpose is to increase your industry profits.

Take the example of a real world railroad that is operated by a company that owns massive ore or coal reserves in an inconvenient location. They can be profitable if you can get the ore and coal to a suitable market. To do that the company may haul the ore and coal on its own rail system, but it wouldn't view the railway itself as actually being profitable. It would (in business terms) simply be viewed as an unfortunate necessary cost of operating a successful mine.
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Re: General management strategies Unread post

Hey, just wondering if anyone else uses post offices. I didn't use them for ages, but fairly recently have taken to using them all the time. I did a bit of figuring. Way I look at it, the average load of mail is worth at least 10k. They can be as low as 4 or 5 on a short haul, or can often be as high as 30, but 10 seems about right for a conservative ballpark figure.

So on that basis, if having a post office generates one additional load of mail per year, then your post offices are giving a 20% return on investment. That matches any other industry. I haven't done any rigorous back to back testing of the same scenarios with and without post offices, but I have noticed that since I started using them I do seem to haul a lot more mail.
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Re: General management strategies Unread post

Ay up. Had some interesting results in low_grade's Chile scenario, since for various reasons I decided to do something different and run all trains without a caboose. This didn't involve an increased consist though. I just used the lack of caboose to lighten the load for the same paying haulage. I've learned more since this thread was started, and now know that the caboose is one of the heaviest cars in the game (equal to any freight car, according to the .car files).

After finishing the scenario, which ran rail for a total of 25 years, I had LTD haulage of 14,939 loads and 1,666,934 load-miles. Over that period there were a total of 48 breakdowns.

This works out to 34,728 load-miles per breakdown, and 311 loads per breakdown, which is pretty good compared to earlier test scenarios with a caboose.

I think the main difference in this case was that the locos I was running for most of the scenario were S3's and P8's that had been modified by event. This gave the S3's a "Very Good" relaibility rating and the P8's "Outstanding". I also stuck with replacing them at around 11 years of age, due to the escalating maintenance costs of old locos regardless of their reliability. The earlier test scenarios were "run 'em 'til they crash".

So it looks like running very reliable locos without a caboose is going to give good results, at least if you don't add an extra car instead of the caboose.
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Re: General management strategies Unread post

Well Gumbootz,
I found your analysis of the pro/con of hauling a caboose very interesting. Rarely I attach a caboose to any train. I do use "diners" with the passenger hauls. With the early engines, I do find that the Sterling is a 'fast' hauler, but has a weakness of breakdowns, and a good percentage of crashes. Hence I will have to take your survey findings into account when using engines which have more of tendency for these problems. Thanks !$th_u$! for all the time consumed in making such a survey. :salute: {,0,} !*th_up*!
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Re: General management strategies Unread post

Do you really run full 8-car trains in the 1800's scenarios? I've found the trains are severely lacking in torque and pulling power, and that causes them to run slower. Not to mention if you're taking all the available loads in one train, there's nothing left for other trains, or for that train when it comes back for another trip.

In the <1850's I run 2 or 3 cars, and in the 1850's - 1900's I will run 3-4 cars, plus I always run a caboose.
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