A new article has been posted explaining the economic results of diesel-electric motive power.
A 7 MB pdf file.
You can find the link on the Railroad History Page.
Economic results of diesel-electric motive power
This is a rare document that has been unavailable for many, many years. This is perhaps the most controversial and truthfull (If not the only one ever done) that accurately reveals the truth about dieselization and the negative economic impact it had on the railroads of America. It's full of graphs and tables for all you lovers of statistics out there and it shows clearly that total dieselization was a terrible mistake. The author was a world respected individual with decades of experience in railroading and engineering, statistics, etc. At the time he wrote this paper, the Association of American Railroads would not allow him to present it, but he presented to his fellows in England.
It blows away the commonly accepted,"facts," concerning dieselization. I just found this on the internet and had to share it with you all. For me it validates everything that I knew from my experience in operating both steam and diesel locomotives, but could never prove.
The best part of the paper is the comments made by other members and contemporaries of Mr. Brown and his final reply to some of the scepticism is simply priceless. It is an example of how civilized, learned people told each other off in nice pretty formal english. It is a lot to read and digest, but worth every minute and I'm sure it should spark some discussion.
It blows away the commonly accepted,"facts," concerning dieselization. I just found this on the internet and had to share it with you all. For me it validates everything that I knew from my experience in operating both steam and diesel locomotives, but could never prove.
The best part of the paper is the comments made by other members and contemporaries of Mr. Brown and his final reply to some of the scepticism is simply priceless. It is an example of how civilized, learned people told each other off in nice pretty formal english. It is a lot to read and digest, but worth every minute and I'm sure it should spark some discussion.
Wow! This must be the most detailed insight into railroading in the US I have read, Most certainly very informative and to be highly recommended for reading. However be prepared that it will take a few hours to read.
Did download the whole file when it was made available by wsherrick some time ago. At my first attempt to read it I nodded of in my chair on page two. On my second attempt I had to take a snooze starting on page six. Just completed reading the rest. It is not that it is not interesting, on the contrary but there is only that much my little brain can comprehend at one time.
All the time wondered as to why there was such a limited amount of electrified railroad in North America and I believe I have my answer now.
Did download the whole file when it was made available by wsherrick some time ago. At my first attempt to read it I nodded of in my chair on page two. On my second attempt I had to take a snooze starting on page six. Just completed reading the rest. It is not that it is not interesting, on the contrary but there is only that much my little brain can comprehend at one time.
All the time wondered as to why there was such a limited amount of electrified railroad in North America and I believe I have my answer now.
The man who has no imagination has no wings. (Muhammad Ali)
I did a little looking into the background of Brown and the company he worked for, Gibbs & Hill Engineering Group. It turns out that Gibbs & Hill was the most prestigeous consulting firm for electrical engineering and other massive railroad projects throughout the late 19th and 20th Centuries. Brown was a consulting engineer who was an authority on electric motive power and its implemtation. Gibbs (the founder of the firm) was a key player in developing the New York City Subway system, developing the first steel coaches and along with H. F. Brown delevoped a plan and advised the Pennsylvania on their massive project to electify the, "Northeast Corridor during the late 20's. They were also involved in other projects in Europe and England. So Dr. Brown was one of the world's formost experts in railroad economics, operation and motive power. Economic Results Of Diesel Electric Motive Power was done at the request of British Rail to study what had taken place in the USA.
It is amazing how History gets revised over time and how advertising propaganda becomes, "irrefutable facts," as time passes. The events around the change over from steam to diesels have been transformed into a myth that everyone must accept or else.
Brown proved conclusively that diesels added greatly to the financial burden of the Railroad industry. The only area that diesels proved an economic advantage was in switching service and that was lost because of the deisels short life and the huge cost of financing their purchase. It was also proven without a doubt that modern steam power was more economic to run and maintain than diesels in road service. It was a surprise to me that a steam engine is cheaper to maintain over its economc life than a diesel. I have in my experience figured this out empirically, that after a diesel ages just a few years, its maintence cost goes up quickly until there is no economic justification to keep fixing it. The railroads found this out only too late, after all the steam builders and suppliers were put out of business. It has been shown that the cost of diesels and the cost related to their short lives and the huge cost of replacing them every 8 or ten years caused the return on investment of the railroads to fall from about 4% in 1944 to less than 2% in 1960 and then go into a negative rate of return in the late 60' and early 70's which was a large contributor to the great railroad crisis of the 1970's. None of the advertised advantages of dieselizing has ever been bourne out in the statistical record. Many railroads in Europe went electric instead of going to diesels.
Now here we are in late 2007 and the railroad's fuel bill was almost 4 billion this year and they spent almost 1.8 billion on new power which will have a service life of 10 to 12 years. The railroad industry does not have that kind of money laying around to pay out of pocket for new power so the cost has to be financed at huge cost in interest which will not be paid before the engines being paid for now have to be retired. Modern diesels don't last any longer than the first ones and are even more complex and expensive to maintain. I know this flys in the face of everything we have read or been taught over the last 50 years or so. It is important to remember that Gibbs & Hill and Brown had no hidden adgenda, nor does Brown in his exhaustive study make recommendations or conclusions on what should be done. The report was as neutral as possible and the reader is invited to draw his own conclusions after reading it.
If you want to see how hostile and ignorant,"rail fans," can be when this is discussed, please go to, Trains.com.steamlocomotives vs. diesel.General Discussion,steam size] and you will find a thread that is 30 something pages long. One of the posters presents a logical and informative argument in support of Brown's report and you will be amazed at the personal assault he suffered. After you read that thread, then you will understand why I was so hesitant to post on this subject in the first place. You will also appreciate the members of our Forum so much better as we actually might like to learn something about the subjects that we are interested in.
It is amazing how History gets revised over time and how advertising propaganda becomes, "irrefutable facts," as time passes. The events around the change over from steam to diesels have been transformed into a myth that everyone must accept or else.
Brown proved conclusively that diesels added greatly to the financial burden of the Railroad industry. The only area that diesels proved an economic advantage was in switching service and that was lost because of the deisels short life and the huge cost of financing their purchase. It was also proven without a doubt that modern steam power was more economic to run and maintain than diesels in road service. It was a surprise to me that a steam engine is cheaper to maintain over its economc life than a diesel. I have in my experience figured this out empirically, that after a diesel ages just a few years, its maintence cost goes up quickly until there is no economic justification to keep fixing it. The railroads found this out only too late, after all the steam builders and suppliers were put out of business. It has been shown that the cost of diesels and the cost related to their short lives and the huge cost of replacing them every 8 or ten years caused the return on investment of the railroads to fall from about 4% in 1944 to less than 2% in 1960 and then go into a negative rate of return in the late 60' and early 70's which was a large contributor to the great railroad crisis of the 1970's. None of the advertised advantages of dieselizing has ever been bourne out in the statistical record. Many railroads in Europe went electric instead of going to diesels.
Now here we are in late 2007 and the railroad's fuel bill was almost 4 billion this year and they spent almost 1.8 billion on new power which will have a service life of 10 to 12 years. The railroad industry does not have that kind of money laying around to pay out of pocket for new power so the cost has to be financed at huge cost in interest which will not be paid before the engines being paid for now have to be retired. Modern diesels don't last any longer than the first ones and are even more complex and expensive to maintain. I know this flys in the face of everything we have read or been taught over the last 50 years or so. It is important to remember that Gibbs & Hill and Brown had no hidden adgenda, nor does Brown in his exhaustive study make recommendations or conclusions on what should be done. The report was as neutral as possible and the reader is invited to draw his own conclusions after reading it.
If you want to see how hostile and ignorant,"rail fans," can be when this is discussed, please go to, Trains.com.steamlocomotives vs. diesel.General Discussion,steam size] and you will find a thread that is 30 something pages long. One of the posters presents a logical and informative argument in support of Brown's report and you will be amazed at the personal assault he suffered. After you read that thread, then you will understand why I was so hesitant to post on this subject in the first place. You will also appreciate the members of our Forum so much better as we actually might like to learn something about the subjects that we are interested in.
Re: Economic results of diesel-electric motive power
This is worth reading!
I've heard that the US of A was the first nation to introduce diesel engines into railroad services. then followed with Europe (very limited dieselizations. much of European railroads are fully electrified) and Siam (i'm not sure what is the second nation on earth to begin dieselize its railroad services? any european nations? (Britain?) or Siam?) but the Royal State Railway of Siam began dieselization as early as 1932!!! the main reasons were1. No significant coal deposits in Siam (there's at least two coal mines here. one is located in the provice of Chiangrai. other is in Lampang. the mining volume was. however, very small. just enough to run a coal powerplant there. and the coal grade was classified as "Lignite" which.. it is said to be of the low quality)
2. Forestry Industry (British contract i Believe). coupled with the heavy dependent of wood to run steam locomotives had siginificantly ruined national forest volumes. However the actual deforestation that's seriously problematic began in 1950s. and purely involved with Industrialization! Yes! much of the natural forests were taken by peasantry to make plantations for whatever the Governments induced them to do, by the 1950 it was Jute that is the name of the plants the Ministry of Agriculture told those folks to plant... a third world Latino-style policy!! nothing associated with Steam engines!...
in 1950s. New Diesel locomotives and DMUs were either purchased. or 'lend-leased' by the US Government. under what's called "Marshal Plan" Those diesel locos are...
- Davenport 500 HP
- Henschel Diesel Hydraulic
- Krupp Diesel Hydraulic (p'rhaps)
- G.E. UM12C http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j154/ ... 32copy.jpg
All of these diesel locomotives above are boxcabs. and are european-style double enders (Except Davenport 500 HP. which it is the 'most' American diesel locomotives. it is single-ended boxcab just like ones used in Yukon pass or ... even the FIRST diesel locomotives. the GE Boxcab itself!)
3. Diesel fuel price by the time of 1930s VS Costs of nationwide electrification. Remember that. in 1930s. Siam (now Thailand) has a very limited electric infrastructure (And by then it has a very limited usefulness. TV and Radio sets were community activities due to its prohibitive prices!! by then only village mayor can afford to buy those things! so the TV and Radio sets are placed in the reception areas. usually the lower-floor of a then-common two-storrey house, or maybe even in a Wat) so by the 1930s the electrification is NOT possible!
However. there was a moment that there were one or two rail lines are electrified. the so called 'Meklong-Paknam' line thing. however the storm of the second world war ruined all electrification infrastructures. so once the war is over. the rail line is solely operated by Diesel multiple units (most of them are from Japan) instead.
by then no one awares how the principles of economics pushes the oil prices upwards. no one really cares.
When Thailand entered Marshall plan thing. The RSR... which it was once a full bureau under Ministry of Interior (I think) has to be reformed as State Enterprise.. called "State Railway of Thailand: SRT". and things went downhill for us. High corruption rates. lacklusters of crews. overpowering SRT Union (it is said that the Union itself is rigged. Any government progress that will privatize the SRT will face fierce protest.). Poor managements. and a controversial urban legend of conspiracy with Japanese Automobile Industry. had turned SRT into a tax leech. An Interesting fact was that another form of railroad services in Thailand... the BTS, and the BMRT... Which both are fully private enterprise, runs the mass transits of Bangkok. all-electrified from births. and uses 1.453 metres rail gauge instead of 1 metres gauge of the SRT. are hefty profiting! The only success the post-reform SRT has was a completion of dieselization within 1970s. (200 or more orange Alsthom Diesel electric boxcabs entered the service. and never retired!). and much of those diesels are aged! well the first diesels. the Sulzers. are all plinthed as a monument of SRT 'Pride'
OK If the now-current government is to reform the SRT once again (And get rid of those nasty gangsters inside the organization). I am favoring Electrifications. a nationwide electrifications too!
Now back to American Dieselizations topic...
1. What will the RR industry in the U.S. be should all of the main lines electrified? Will the cost of nationwide electrification worths?
2. Why do all Diesel locomotives in the US are single cab? (and ironically the electric ones. the 2-D-2 (NYC) and the Bo-Bo (B&O)... are either double-ended, or built as central-cabs.) Why aren't railroad companies there uses double-ended ones? while G.E. can build Double-ended locos and sold them elsewhere (including Thailand. as i've said above). Do american railroad companies still believe in the neccessity of having either Y or turntable?
3. How does 'modern steam locomotives' looks like? what should its firebox fuels or boiling systems be? or will it be Nuclear-powered ones?
I don't think that oil-fired steamer a feasible ones for today. y'know all of those oils are distillate just like diesel oil. and since the hydrocarbon chemistry and involving techs became advanced (which led to 'plastic revolutions' in 60s onwards). Those sticky oils will be too expensive to those fireboxes.
3.1 Will it looks like Southern Pacific cab forwards? Or will it looks like Bulleid's "Leader" things?
3.2 Or will it be the evolution of double fairies? maybe bigger and more powerful 0-8-8-0 Fairlies?
4. How can a high fuel-efficiency be achieved? Rudolf Diesel was the first man in the world that discovered the lackings of Steam engines. especially after one of his experiments are blown up during the test, and the explosion threw him into a hospital for MONTHS!
5. Any proofs on the tests of the so-called 'Modern steamers'?
6. And please.. Don't say that the 'revived' steamers are just "Theme-park Locomotives" like ones in Dollywood.
7. Is there any conspriacy between Airlines, Oil corporates and the Locomotive manufacturers to stop any electrification efforts in the USA? and is this the reasons why the Thesis author and his publications banned in the US?
L.