Why do people start with industries?

[gismoskip]

just asking, WHY? i never, unless i have to. and even then i usually fail. just so you guys know, i never use industries - right at start anyway. i just think it's unnatral. i mean, this is a RAILROAD game! why not stick to that? just seeing what you guys think about industry start-out.

[Gumboots]

Why? Because it makes stacks of money, which you can then use to build railroads.

And quite honestly, after your "joke" about the Mexico scenario I am extremely sceptical of any of your claims, so don't try and tell me how awesome you are without industry, k?

[gismoskip]

Why? Because it makes stacks of money, which you can then use to build railroads.

And quite honestly, after your "joke" about the Mexico scenario I am extremely sceptical of any of your claims, so don't try and tell me how awesome you are without industry, k?

ok, proof! you try to win "go west" in four years with spending starting cach on industries! (level: easy) then save the game and zip it. i will do the same with rails. good luck doing it in 8 years. my record (without any industries) is 3 years. only thing i have to do is draw tons of bonds, and run lots of rails. also, that's why i'm making a new map in which you CANNOT have industries to win gold. you heard that? you CANNOT have indusries to win gold. it's a requirement. and you have 30 years to have 1 billion book value. try that(when it's finished) on expert!

[Gumboots]

I'm not interested in playing "Go West" on Easy level. I only ever play on Expert level, and on that level the railroads are far less profitable than they are on Easy. Easy is called Easy because it's easy to make money.

On Expert, most scenarios will give you a less vibrant economy to start with, and the railway expenses will be higher as well. This means that if you try to start without industry, your few trains will pootle around for a decade or so pulling in very little cash. To really get things moving, industry is the way to go at the beginning.

[Hawk]

just asking, WHY? i never, unless i have to. and even then i usually fail. just so you guys know, i never use industries - right at start anyway. i just think it's unnatral. i mean, this is a RAILROAD game! why not stick to that? just seeing what you guys think about industry start-out.

It is named Railroad Tycoon. A lot of the early real world tycoons that started the railroad industry also owned other industries as part of their financial portfolio.
It just makes sense to include industry in a game about tycoons.

If you don't want to use industry in your games - don't. That's entirely your choice and game play preference. Not everyone shares your preference of game play style.

[gismoskip]

just asking, WHY? i never, unless i have to. and even then i usually fail. just so you guys know, i never use industries - right at start anyway. i just think it's unnatral. i mean, this is a RAILROAD game! why not stick to that? just seeing what you guys think about industry start-out.

It is named Railroad Tycoon. A lot of the early real world tycoons that started the railroad industry also owned other industries as part of their financial portfolio.
It just makes sense to include industry in a game about tycoons.

If you don't want to use industry in your games - don't. That's entirely your choice and game play preference. Not everyone shares your preference of game play style.

ok, and i DO buy/build industries - i just don't like to buy/build them unless i have to. i think that it would be interesting to have a map that in order to get gold, you need to not have ANY industries. and you need 1 billion book value. sounds like the map that i am working on right now that's top secret.

[Gumboots]

ok, proof! you try to win "go west" in four years with spending starting cach on industries! (level: easy) then save the game and zip it. i will do the same with rails. good luck doing it in 8 years. my record (without any industries) is 3 years. only thing i have to do is draw tons of bonds, and run lots of rails. also, that's why i'm making a new map in which you CANNOT have industries to win gold. you heard that? you CANNOT have indusries to win gold. it's a requirement. and you have 30 years to have 1 billion book value. try that(when it's finished) on expert!

If you disallow industry on Expert level the game will simply be unwinnable, so there will be no point in playing it.

About "Go West": I just took a look at it again, and had forgotten that the campaigns don't have an Expert setting. "Hard" is the highest available. Anyway, try it on Hard, with some extra requirements.

1/ Same as gold for default, you have to connect Boston to Buffalo by the beginning of 1856.
2/ There is no silver or bronze. It's gold or nothing.
3/ As well as connecting Boston and Buffalo, you must also connect Oshawa.

Also, at the end of the game:

5/ Your company must be the only company left.
6/ Your company must have an AAA credit rating.
7/ You must own at least 25% of your company.
6/ Your personal cash must be greater than zero (IOW, no holding shares on margin).

See how you go with that without industry.

[Wolverine@MSU]

As someone who also plays exclusively on "Expert" I have to agree with Gumboots. Starting with profitable industry from the get-go gives you a steady stream of long-term income that leads to rapid increase in stock price (especially at the beginning of a scenario), which gives you even more cash when you issue stock. Building rails and running trains, while often returning high profits initially, will eventually become less profitable as supply/demand gradients decrease. The only way to keep profit levels up with rails is to expand to new pockets of demand. My experience has been that there comes a point, especially on very large maps, that the cost of operating expenses for the extensive rail network begins to approach the profits made from hauling goods beween stations with ever decreasing price differentials. The only time I've seen a different effect is when, for whatever reason, a HUGE demand for a particular cargo begins to develop spontaniously and an astute player can reap tremendous profits from shuttling that cargo around the map as these pockets of demand wax and wane.

As far as "Go West" being strictly a campaign scenario, if you want to try it as a stand-alone scenario, just go in with the Editor, uncheck the "Campaign Scenario" checkbox and resave it (with a new name).

[Gumboots]

Not a bad idea. I quite like some of the campaign games, but the requirements are (IMHO) too easy for a lot of them. Might be fun to revamp a lot of the campaign and scenario maps with more suitable requirements for gold, and perhaps a few other tweaks.

[gismoskip]

ok, proof! you try to win "go west" in four years with spending starting cach on industries! (level: easy) then save the game and zip it. i will do the same with rails. good luck doing it in 8 years. my record (without any industries) is 3 years. only thing i have to do is draw tons of bonds, and run lots of rails. also, that's why i'm making a new map in which you CANNOT have industries to win gold. you heard that? you CANNOT have indusries to win gold. it's a requirement. and you have 30 years to have 1 billion book value. try that(when it's finished) on expert!

If you disallow industry on Expert level the game will simply be unwinnable, so there will be no point in playing it.

About "Go West": I just took a look at it again, and had forgotten that the campaigns don't have an Expert setting. "Hard" is the highest available. Anyway, try it on Hard, with some extra requirements.

1/ Same as gold for default, you have to connect Boston to Buffalo by the beginning of 1856.
2/ There is no silver or bronze. It's gold or nothing.
3/ As well as connecting Boston and Buffalo, you must also connect Oshawa.

Also, at the end of the game:

5/ Your company must be the only company left.
6/ Your company must have an AAA credit rating.
7/ You must own at least 25% of your company.
6/ Your personal cash must be greater than zero (IOW, no holding shares on margin).

See how you go with that without industry.

Done! i'll save it every year until one year i get all those requirements! i'll prove you wrong! i win on expert on that map within 6 years - it'll just be more dificult! (it'll be the same 1856 or whatever deadline, right?) after winning it, i will send you the saved game. (only one edit to the game though - i will also send you my version i am going to use - and i WILL do hard or expert)

edit: i might not accually get all the goals, but i might get the personal cash must be more than 0, and the only company left. the AAA is a possibility, but 25 % is not likely.

[Gumboots]

Done! i'll save it every year until one year i get all those requirements! i'll prove you wrong! i win on expert on that map within 6 years - it'll just be more dificult! (it'll be the same 1856 or whatever deadline, right?) after winning it, i will send you the saved game. (only one edit to the game though - i will also send you my version i am going to use - and i WILL do hard or expert)

edit: i might not accually get all the goals, but i might get the personal cash must be more than 0, and the only company left. the AAA is a possibility, but 25 % is not likely.

Ok, so is it "done" and are you going to prove me wrong, or is it that you'll only get some of the requirements but not all of them?

Reason I mentioned those requirements is because that was the result I got yesterday, without trying too hard. I was just playing along for fun and realised I could buy out all the other companies, etc, etc. The credit rating is a bit of a no brainer, because if your company is healthy enough to do the other stuff it will automatically have a good credit rating. You can easily get 25% of your own company by buying on margin. The main thing is not to issue too much stock in your own company so you aren't always trying to catch up. I don't issue stock much at all. It's not uncommon for me to get through a game without issuing any stock.

All I usually do is max out the bonds at the lowest possible interest rate. If you rely on bonds for raising most of your cash it's not hard to hold >25%. Buying out the other companies is good for your personal cash, because when you raid the other companies you just set a suitably high merger price and get yourself out of the red that way. You don't even have to pay yourself much of a dividend, if any, from your own company. That means all your company cash can be devoted to expansion and mergers. In effect, the premium price on the mergers becomes your dividend. It's more effective to do it that way, because to pull off a merger you will be holding a majority of the other company's shares, which means the money mostly goes to you. If you just pay a dividend on your own company, most of the money goes to other investors and that doesn't help you at all.

ETA: Just did it again for fun, and added the zipped end game save so you can check it out.

Point is that it does come down to how you like to play. This is the sort of result you can get with industry, and I would be very surprised if you could get it without industry. I might try it though, just to see what happens.

[gismoskip]

Done! i'll save it every year until one year i get all those requirements! i'll prove you wrong! i win on expert on that map within 6 years - it'll just be more dificult! (it'll be the same 1856 or whatever deadline, right?) after winning it, i will send you the saved game. (only one edit to the game though - i will also send you my version i am going to use - and i WILL do hard or expert)

edit: i might not accually get all the goals, but i might get the personal cash must be more than 0, and the only company left. the AAA is a possibility, but 25 % is not likely.

Ok, so is it "done" and are you going to prove me wrong, or is it that you'll only get some of the requirements but not all of them?

Reason I mentioned those requirements is because that was the result I got yesterday, without trying too hard. I was just playing along for fun and realised I could buy out all the other companies, etc, etc. The credit rating is a bit of a no brainer, because if your company is healthy enough to do the other stuff it will automatically have a good credit rating. You can easily get 25% of your own company by buying on margin. The main thing is not to issue too much stock in your own company so you aren't always trying to catch up. I don't issue stock much at all. It's not uncommon for me to get through a game without issuing any stock.

All I usually do is max out the bonds at the lowest possible interest rate. If you rely on bonds for raising most of your cash it's not hard to hold >25%. Buying out the other companies is good for your personal cash, because when you raid the other companies you just set a suitably high merger price and get yourself out of the red that way. You don't even have to pay yourself much of a dividend, if any, from your own company. That means all your company cash can be devoted to expansion and mergers. In effect, the premium price on the mergers becomes your dividend. It's more effective to do it that way, because to pull off a merger you will be holding a majority of the other company's shares, which means the money mostly goes to you. If you just pay a dividend on your own company, most of the money goes to other investors and that doesn't help you at all.

ETA: Just did it again for fun, and added the zipped end game save so you can check it out.

Point is that it does come down to how you like to play. This is the sort of result you can get with industry, and I would be very surprised if you could get it without industry. I might try it though, just to see what happens.

going to check that map out - i have a save on what i had in the begining and middle.(so you can see my progresion) around mid i bought out one opponent. he was failing. lol. but the other might become a problem. the stock i have is 10% around - not too good. i have an ok credit rating, and i have connected boston to buffalo. (note: i useually start out in New York/Allentown/Edison. but since it was a hard map i found that Allentown wasn't worth connecting, and i would connect New York, Edison, and Harvard(sorry if any cities were misspelled))

[gismoskip]

Ok, so is it "done" and are you going to prove me wrong, or is it that you'll only get some of the requirements but not all of them?

Reason I mentioned those requirements is because that was the result I got yesterday, without trying too hard. I was just playing along for fun and realised I could buy out all the other companies, etc, etc. The credit rating is a bit of a no brainer, because if your company is healthy enough to do the other stuff it will automatically have a good credit rating. You can easily get 25% of your own company by buying on margin. The main thing is not to issue too much stock in your own company so you aren't always trying to catch up. I don't issue stock much at all. It's not uncommon for me to get through a game without issuing any stock.

All I usually do is max out the bonds at the lowest possible interest rate. If you rely on bonds for raising most of your cash it's not hard to hold >25%. Buying out the other companies is good for your personal cash, because when you raid the other companies you just set a suitably high merger price and get yourself out of the red that way. You don't even have to pay yourself much of a dividend, if any, from your own company. That means all your company cash can be devoted to expansion and mergers. In effect, the premium price on the mergers becomes your dividend. It's more effective to do it that way, because to pull off a merger you will be holding a majority of the other company's shares, which means the money mostly goes to you. If you just pay a dividend on your own company, most of the money goes to other investors and that doesn't help you at all.

ETA: Just did it again for fun, and added the zipped end game save so you can check it out.

Point is that it does come down to how you like to play. This is the sort of result you can get with industry, and I would be very surprised if you could get it without industry. I might try it though, just to see what happens.

going to check that map out - i have a save on what i had in the begining and middle.(so you can see my progresion) around mid i bought out one opponent. he was failing. lol. but the other might become a problem. the stock i have is 10% around - not too good. i have an ok credit rating, and i have connected boston to buffalo. (note: i useually start out in New York/Allentown/Edison. but since it was a hard map i found that Allentown wasn't worth connecting, and i would connect New York, Edison, and Harvard(sorry if any cities were misspelled))

other attachment:

[Gumboots]

If you want to try something dfferent, start in Watertown. Since you are aiming to connect Oshawa anyway, starting with a station over towards Canada can work quite well.

I'm quite taken with the idea of rerwriting some of the standard games to be more suitable and interesting for expert players. I think I might try my hand at that. Good little project for someone who hasn't tried playing with the editor before.

ETA: Oh and what I've been doing lately is starting over that way (even tried buying straight into Canada one time) and hooking up the Buffalo and Canada runs first, then buying out the AI company at New York and hooking onto that, then join up the two systems via Albany, then finally buy out the other AI over at Boston. Usually one of the AI players will start himself a second company a couple of years after I took over his first one, so that means I end up having to raid three AI companies to get them all.

[gismoskip]

If you want to try something dfferent, start in Watertown. Since you are aiming to connect Oshawa anyway, starting with a station over towards Canada can work quite well.

I'm quite taken with the idea of rerwriting some of the standard games to be more suitable and interesting for expert players. I think I might try my hand at that. Good little project for someone who hasn't tried playing with the editor before.

i EPICLY failed in the last few years. i almost went bankrupt, but i was able to save the company. it had 10,000,000 in debt and had a credit rating in the Bs. my stock was not high enough to get anything, and i ended a failure. the reson i slmost went bankrupt was that i borrowed 6 million and spent it all on buying back stock. BAD IDEA! after i had taken out the loans and spent it buying back stock, my company barely kept itself off the ground! i did make it though, but my credit rating was terrible for the next years. i got none of those requirements. so, i admit, you are right as far as industries for some maps, but i'm making a map to test your skills with railroad management . . . . to the extreme!!!!

[ytr191]

I have tried the industry approach to railroad tycoon. The truth is, that it works. Lets say that you have two cities with a lot of natural resources and no industry.

Omaha: 5 grain farms
Samatha: 4 sheep farms, and a cotton plantation

Since a textile mill only costs around $1,200K and earns around $200k a year after expenses, it can be a very good way to support building a railroad in a hostile working environment.

[Alfed E Neumann]

Nothing new here, just trying to squeeze the thread's information into a few short paragraphs.

The problem with small railroads (connecting only two or three cities) is that while they may create a decent revenue at first, it's bound to plummet quickly, as freight prices at all stations quickly become near-equal. In their second or third year, profits become meager to nonexistent.

Large railway systems perform much better. In part because there's probably a wider assortment of goods to carry around, in part because of less overhead (a large station costs $200k regardless of wether it serves one train or ten). But mostly it's because of express revenue: the more destinations you have, the more passengers and mail you will attract. Small railroads need to ship the cargo that is, large systems create their own express freight. It's really that simple.

So, how do you get a large system without building a small one first? Don't start with a railroad, start with industries. A return on investment of 25% or better is pretty normal in that stage (you only use the very best sites fo your first industries, don't you?). Hit fast forward, invest and reinvest for a few years. By the time the economy improves, your stock will already have split a few times and you will have a pretty good credit rating. You can now issue bonds for lots of cheap money (and even more bonds for not-so-cheap money) and connect six or ten or even more cities, all in one go.

[EPH]

I always look at the scenario and the requirements as well as the expected rate of return on my investment. If I have enough starting money to build a profitable railroad from the start, then I do. If I think I can make a higher return from investing in industries, I do that. My perception is that early purchase of industry provides steady income which helps bring down those interest rates - then I plunge and build a profitable rail network. (Alfred E Neumann just put this very well; see the previous post).

I'd be surprised if an industrial empire can be more profitable than a mature rail network, but if industry counts for 1/3 of my total income I am well satisfied. Besides, extensive industry multiplies my transport profits: I make money hauling coal and iron to the steel mill, rubber to the tire plant, those products to the auto or weapons factory and then the finished product too. Can't beat them apples!

From history we can see that railroad tycoons were often industrial tycoons as well: the Reading Railroad in its prime was considered the most profitable company in the world largely because of its extensive holdings in coal mines. Many mining, manufacturing and forestry products companies were spawned by railroads usually from their land-grant acreage.

But the real reason to industrialize is PROFIT. As was said above, if you don't want to spend your money on industries early on, then don't. Feel free to tell me that you think my strategy is sub-optimal. But a lot of people disagree with you, myself among them. Personally I love building a massive industrial economy, linking my farms, mines and factories together with profitable railroads into a financial empire worthy of Scrooge McDuck. Seeing the potential for an industry and capitalizing on it makes me very, very happy. $$$$$

[Alfed E Neumann]

[quote="EPH"]I'd be surprised if an industrial empire can be more profitable than a mature rail network, [/quote]

Me too.
*Some* industries yield insane profits. This, of course, are the ones you buy or build first. But if you stick with industries, you'll eventually have to settle with more ordinary revenues.

I've seen 60% return on investment at times, but that's rare. Usually, I consider 40% to be excellent and 20% is quite alright. I never bothered to figure out a precise ROI for my railroads, but have a gut feeling that it's better than 25%, possibly even 40%.

[Gumboots]

I'd suggest taking a good look at your ledger. If you are playing on Expert level, your fuel and maintenance costs for your trains will often be very close to the amount of revenue they generate.