Passengers in Railroad Tycoon III

[Gumboots]

Aha! It turns out that the information regarding the actual effect of pax appeal ratings has been available to us for years. Apparently nobody has ever bothered to read it before.

I took a look in History.rtf, the default PopTop file that provides a list of changes in various versions of the game. This file has been helpfully sitting in all our installations since 2004, just waiting for someone to bother reading it, and tells us that way back in 1.03 the following happened:

Single Player Balance and Gameplay Tweaking

15. Reduced the amount of passengers and mail in the middle and later stages of a game (i.e. when the map is built up with lots of track) by 15-30%.

16. Decreased the effects of a locomotive’s Passenger Appeal rating from (worst to best) -15%, 0, +15%, +30% to -10%, 0, +10%, +20%.

So there you go. Our recent empirical testing had the right result, and the RT3 manual is wrong. Presumably the manual was compiled when 1.0 or 1.01 was released, and hasn't been updated since. Anyway, your Ultra Cool locos will only give you a 20% revenue boost for pax, so don't go thinking it's still 30%.

[undertoad]

This is a great thread!

Perhaps one day, collectively, this forum will get to the bottom of the Mystery Wrapped In An Enigma that is the RRT3 passenger model. Or perhaps not...

Been pondering something else about passenger behaviour. Sometimes I've been checking stations on a map, and seen a pile of passengers at one station who supposedly want to go to another specific station. For example on the default Germantown map, where there would be passengers in Chicago who want to go to St. Louis. So ok, I put on a new train running direct from Chicago to St. Louis, set it to express-only, and voila, it leaves the station empty.

I've also seen this umpteen times. No half-measures, I put on a train to exactly where these 6.4 loads of passengers want to go, and... the train leaves empty. I may be misrembering, but I have a vague idea that sending the train back to the starting station (when it's hardly left) sometimes fixes the problem.

It's a complete pain when you're taking the trouble to view the passenger map to put on additional passenger services.

I have another couple of questions, which maybe people can enlighten me on.

1. Sometimes, I'm not sure when or why, passengers trains lose all of their revenue. Either while loading, or even while on their way, the train "coins" display goes to 0, and hovering over each passenger car shows "100% full, revenue USD0". Very annoying, especially when it's a long-distance train. I thought it happened when I insert/delete maintenance stops in the train route - but it doesn't always happen then, and often happens when I haven't changed the route one bit. Anyone else seen this, and/or have any idea how to avoid it?

2. I'm uncertain about exactly what the "passengers from" display means sometimes. Using the CPR map as an example (see image):

I'm looking at the passengers from Stockton. (I've added in the other station names on the map, to make things clearer).

a) The map says there are 1.4 loads for Santa Rosa, and 2.2 loads for "My lumber mill". What does this mean? Does the 2.2 include the 1.4 people who really want to go to Santa Rosa, but are willing to get on a train to My lumber mill because it's on the way? Or, if I add a train going Stockton-My lumber mill-Santa Rosa, will I get 3.6 loads (2.2+1.4)? I've tried testing it but don't get any consistent results (partly, probably, because of the "passenger-meh" problem that Gumboots mentioned - you lay on a train and they change their mind).

b) Same thing for Reno and Carson (you have to go through Reno to get to Carson). Is this really 1.4 people wanting to go to Carson, or 1.4 for Carson and 1.4 for Reno (=2.8)?

c) No-one wants to go to Sacramento. But if I lay on a train to Sacramento, will the 1.4 (or is it 2.8?) wanting to go over the Sierras, and the 0.6 for Yuba, get on it?

[Gumboots]

This is a great thread!

Perhaps one day, collectively, this forum will get to the bottom of the Mystery Wrapped In An Enigma that is the RRT3 passenger model. Or perhaps not...

Been pondering something else about passenger behaviour. Sometimes I've been checking stations on a map, and seen a pile of passengers at one station who supposedly want to go to another specific station. For example on the default Germantown map, where there would be passengers in Chicago who want to go to St. Louis. So ok, I put on a new train running direct from Chicago to St. Louis, set it to express-only, and voila, it leaves the station empty.

I've also seen this umpteen times. No half-measures, I put on a train to exactly where these 6.4 loads of passengers want to go, and... the train leaves empty. I may be misrembering, but I have a vague idea that sending the train back to the starting station (when it's hardly left) sometimes fixes the problem.

It's a complete pain when you're taking the trouble to view the passenger map to put on additional passenger services.

Exactly. IMO this is one of the main things that makes running dedicated express in RT3 so pointless. Even if you give them a train going exactly where they want it to go, passengers often will not use it. For no discernible reason. Freight doesn't behave like this at all. Offhand I can't remember if it affects mail. I don't think I've checked that.

I have another couple of questions, which maybe people can enlighten me on.

1. Sometimes, I'm not sure when or why, passengers trains lose all of their revenue. Either while loading, or even while on their way, the train "coins" display goes to 0, and hovering over each passenger car shows "100% full, revenue USD0". Very annoying, especially when it's a long-distance train. I thought it happened when I insert/delete maintenance stops in the train route - but it doesn't always happen then, and often happens when I haven't changed the route one bit. Anyone else seen this, and/or have any idea how to avoid it?

I've only ever seen that happening when I make changes to routing while the train is in motion. Happens with freight too. Seems to be a game bug.

Sorry, have no idea about your other questions.

[RulerofRails]

I haven't come across the problem that Gumboots and you mentioned, of available passengers that refuse to load on a train that is departing to a valid destination. That is as long as delivery values is greater than the minimum of $2. When you find an example, you could PM the saved game to me. My speculation as to why you might seem to see this problem is that another train probably loaded those passengers, most probably taking them to a different destination.

Question #1. I know of a minor game bug where adding stops can be counted by the game as a "re-route". This will instantly cause a revenue drop for freight and may cause passenger fares to drop all the way to $0. I haven't observed sudden drops to untouched trains that are in transit, only the gradual price decay.

Question #2. While each passenger load in RT3 has a "destination in mind", the game doesn't provide that information to the player. Many of the places where passengers want to travel are actually different ways that a particular load of passengers is trying to get to its destination. This is a theoretical explanation.

In practice, it seems that these same 1.4 passengers want to go to many places, but can only travel once. (I know that upon loading up a train, many of the places currently demanding passengers will disappear from the map.)

It would be speculation , but it could also be that all the demands are currently valid but there is a supply problem. (We would have to wait for another 1.4 passengers that wish to travel before we can satisfy another "order".) Another speculation , perhaps such demand is fractional of the total amount of passengers that want to travel (already only a part of loads available) depending on the distance to travel, where in certain distance ranges we get similar totals. The explanation here being that the close towns have been having some service (Sacremento for example) so their demand is better satisfied at the moment even though maximum total possible is higher. Also, this isn't always visible because there must be sufficient frequency of service before passengers will attempt a particular journey.

I think it's better to make decisions on passengers while thinking about the big picture and what the available information seems to indicate about that. For example 1.4 or even 2.2 loads available at one time isn't enough to justify purchasing a loco or re-routing an exisiting one for economic gain. However, if this situation is occuring for extended periods of time I would look towards adjusting frequency of service/service pattern or even buying a new train etc.. My current strategy is to incorporate "strings" (my term, close towns not on a main-line that are close distance-wise {forget geography}, forming a neat row on the map). Then I route trains so there is a tendency to drag passengers along main-lines and those. Working that in with hubs, building Hotels etc. should yield decent express revenues.

FWIW, if I were to pick the best use for the passengers in Stockton, I would pick the 1.6 headed south. (Didn't bother to look up the name for that town.)

[Gumboots]

I haven't come across the problem that Gumboots and you mentioned, of available passengers that refuse to load on a train that is departing to a valid destination. That is as long as delivery values is greater than the minimum of $2. When you find an example, you could PM the saved game to me. My speculation as to why you might seem to see this problem is that another train probably loaded those passengers, most probably taking them to a different destination.

Nope, that's not it, because the origin station will still have piles of passengers supposedly wanting to go to the other station.

Note that this is on track which is well established and has been laid for several years. The only change is the addition of an extra express-only train to deal with the piles of pax that are just sitting around waiting to be hauled. It should load them up, but sometimes it doesn't. This happens quite often for me, but there doesn't appear to be any rhyme or reason to it.

[Gumboots]

By the way, this turned out to be incorrect, once we checked weights in .car files:

The Dining Car increases passenger fares on a train by 20%. Said another way, for every 5 full car loads of passengers, the Dining Car adds the fares of a 6th load. On the downside, the Dining Car takes away 1 of the 8 car slots in the consist (see first bullet below). On the upside, the Dining Car weighs the same as a full passenger car and will not slow down an express train.

For some weird reason, the default caboose and dining car are both 1/3 heavier than a freight car. IOW, they are both twice the weight of an express car.

What this means is that a loco hauling 8 default express cars will be hauling a load of 8 express cars in weight (d'oh), but the same loco hauling 7 express cars + dining car will be hauling the weight of 9 express cars. If it has both a dining car and a caboose, as well as 6 express cars, the weight will be equivalent to 10 express cars.

If you want an idea of how this will affect speed, a default 1.05 Pacific 4-6-2 hauling 1900-1950 era cars will do the following:

0% Grade
8 express cars = 94 mph
7 express + dining = 90 mph
6 express + dining + caboose = 87 mph

2% Grade
8 express cars = 41 mph
7 express + dining = 39 mph
6 express + dining + caboose = 36 mph

4% Grade
8 express cars = 15 mph
7 express + dining = 13 mph
6 express + dining + caboose = 12 mph
----------------------------------------------

A Stirling hauling 1850-1900 era cars will do the following:

0% Grade
8 express cars = 71 mph
7 express + dining = 66 mph
6 express + dining + caboose = 63 mph

2% Grade
8 express cars = 23 mph
7 express + dining = 21 mph
6 express + dining + caboose = 19 mph

4% Grade
8 express cars = 6 mph
7 express + dining = 5 mph
6 express + dining + caboose = 4 mph
----------------------------------------------

The extra weight of the dining car and caboose will also increase fuel consumption by 6-10% for most locos, and increase (slightly more) the chance of breakdowns.

[Gumboots]

I've been doing some investigation of passengers as part of coding my Latvia map, and there are a couple of minor inaccuracies in some of OilCan's comments.

First post of the thread:

Troops and passengers are not the same although they may seem to behave the same. Troops are generated in barracks and only move between barracks. They also pay a different fare than passengers to ride a train. They prefer troop cars to ride in – but will ride in passenger cars. Passengers never ride in troop cars.

This one doesn't affect gameplay, but is worth noting to save confusion for beginners. In default form, there is no such thing as a troop car in RT3. Not really. Troops use the default passenger car model and coding, with the exception that Troops have their own .cty and .cct files (the .cty sets cargo price, and the .cct just tells the Troops cargo to use the passenger cars).

The only way to get actual troop cars in RT3 is to use one of the third party modifications, such as WP&P's troop cars, or my troop cars, or the Trainmaster troop cars. These have the same weight as passenger cars of the same era, and the separate troop cars are mainly to add extra visual interest to the game.

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Third post of the thread:

These patterns can change when a game maker uses a hidden ‘event’ to change passenger production. A change in passenger production takes effect gradually over several months. An event change in passenger production can only be map wide, not within individual territories.

Actually, you can make an event that changes passenger production by territory, and it will work perfectly. In this respect passengers (and mail and troops) behave just like any other cargo.

What you can't do is change passenger price by territory. In fact, you cannot change passenger price at all, not even as a game-wide event. You can write an event to change passenger price game-wide, and the map editor will recognise the code as valid, but when tested in live play that event will have absolutely no effect on passenger price. This also applies to Mail and Troops. The prices of all three express cargoes are locked into the game's .exe, and cannot be changed by any scenario. This is just one of RT3's bugs, and we just have to live with it.

[zzc]

Strange I added an event to increase the price of express cargo 10% monthly for a total of 120% by year end. And express cargo was being picked up more frequently than without the increase. I use mixed cargo trains always.

Maybe theres 2 types of troops. On duty troops travel between barracks. Off duty troops travel to stations without barracks. Or they behave like passengers, and willing to stop at a station on their way to destination?

[Gumboots]

No, there is only one type of troops. You can have some intermediate stops. They behave much like passengers, except they only try to reach another city with a barracks, instead of being able to travel to any city on the map.

And I tested the express price events thoroughly. You can write all the express price increase events you want, and the editor will accept them as valid, but they have no effect on price during play. There are a few other types of events that don't work either (locomotive fuel cost, locomotive acceleration, and a couple of others).

[sbaros]

Maybe theres 2 types of troops. On duty troops travel between barracks. Off duty troops travel to stations without barracks. Or they behave like passengers, and willing to stop at a station on their way to destination?

No, there is only one type of troops. You can have some intermediate stops. They behave much like passengers, except they only try to reach another city with a barracks, instead of being able to travel to any city on the map.

If one is willing to sacrifice one of the less substantial cargoes among the maximum 53, a new one called "Off duty troops" may be theoretically possible, if desired with its own slightly different coach type to be able to visually recognise it from a distance. However, it will take much work to hex-put it from scratch to every origin-destination building type in mind. A different approach would be to represent them as ordinary passengers generated from -and probably returning to- barracks, forts, military outposts and the like, in which case they'd behave accordingly, and of course be undistinguishable once aboard a passenger car. Moreover, a demand of "troops" could be added experimentally to attractions like e.g. a stadium or cinema, and see what happens.
Dedicated "Off duty troops", "war prisoners" and other specialised military stuff may be of interest for predominantly wartime scenarios (in extra installations of Railroad Tycoon III/Trainmaster of course), where one can for sure abolish such commodities as "Toys" and "Furniture".

[Gumboots]

I doubt it would be possible to add a custom express cargo. They aren't handled like other cargoes. All the pricing is locked into the .exe.

[sbaros]

I didn't say these additional cargoes have to be necessarily express.

[sbaros]

I didn't say these additional cargoes have to be necessarily express.
From another viewpoint however, for the sake of realism maybe all cargoes should behave as "express" ones in the RR Tycoon sense. A real-life producer will strike a deal with a buyer for a specific quantity of his products and then decide how to ship it (at which point a choice will be made among the competing transport option). So, a load of weapons e.g. should behave as a load of mail, with a specific destination in mind. If you operated the railroad inefficiently, it would be carried at a loss and you would deserve trouble.
The way Railroad Tycoon III works for non-express commodities looks rather like a "black marketeer's" lorry than a railroad business. Freight is indiscriminately carried without specific destinations up to a point where it can be unloaded at the moment's maximum price. To put it another way, is the railroad simulated as a subsidiary of a trading company (or a manufacturing & trading company in scenarios where industries can be owned)?

I will also load the special train with Any Express, then once it is "Loading" with all the express available, switch to it to Any Consist (will remain at this setting). If the train isn't full, freight cars will be added to fill the train. (Advantage to this: freight isn't competing over express in terms of price to deliver which as far as we can see is taken before the passenger appeal rating is applied).

In Yellowstone I got the fee between Gardiner and Jardin low enough that the fee would only be above $2 (train would load) if an attractive engine were used.

Can both these statements be valid? If cargo priority is in fact decided before the passenger appeal rating is applied, can an otherwise unoccupied train load passengers solely due to an "attractive engine"?

[Gumboots]

No, the second statement is obviously not valid, but bear in mind it was made a year and a half before the first statement. Old posts often contain opinions formed before more information was known to the person making the post.

[RulerofRails]

Yes, I got a lot of experience with the game during that time. We work with observation here, and this can quite easily lead to erroneous conclusions. I have changed computers since then, so if I have a savegame somewhere it is virtually impossible to find. A quick test didn't give any evidence to support the validity of the old conclusion.

I fiddled around a bit with $2 loads, and I had a confirmed passenger load at $1,777. The numbers are rounded for display after all. This was into the game a far bit, so station age revenue penalty could potentially be implemented in a strange way. But it makes sense that it's just rounding so maybe really it's >$1.5k, idk.

The way I calculated price at time of loading was by using one passenger car and the Dining Car. Then working backwards from the displayed revenue bonus for the diner to calculate the non-rounded delivery fee of the car itself. I did a test of Dining Car bonus relation to revenue received at time of unloading. The bonus percentage was accurate.

---

A model for freight like that for express obviously couldn't be implemented in the game unless someone was actually able to re-code the exe. It would be a different game. Tbh, I think strategy of how to connect and run your railway will suffer. Compared to real life, the RT3 player has far too much control, however, this isn't necessarily a bad thing for gameplay. The current model has nuuances, but ones that can be managed automatically rather than with micro-managing. There is a wealth of information in the price maps, but, IMO because it's visual this helps to keep it concise without huge lists of data about orders, industries which will be built soon, etc.. If you want to play a railway game where you don't really care about finding the best cargo types to haul/best routes for distribution, try Railway Empire: $2k flat fee for all freight deliveries regardless of distance.