Speed adjustment considerations

[Gumboots]

Hey I just found this: https://sites.google.com/site/camelback ... comotives/

[Just Crazy Jim]

Yes I've had that same thought. IRL camelbacks were prized for express service due to their lack of smoke. They weren't slow either. Something like CNJ No. 592 would be a good addition to the game, at least for fun even if it's not strictly needed to expand the roster.

The CNJ No. 592 was a legendary loco. Camelbacks of that caliber were the jewels in the crown of the the CNJ and Reading lines for many years. So the PopTop Camelback has always galled me.

Hey I just found this: https://sites.google.com/site/camelback ... comotives/

Great find, Sir Gumboots.

A lot of really good photos of "in the rough" Camelbacks there.

[Gumboots]

This page has a works diagram for a PRR E1, which is pretty much identical to CNJ 592.

http://www.altoonaworks.info/diagrams.html

Hey how about one of these beasts? It's remarkably appealing for something so gruesome. I'm beginning to understand how mother warthogs must feel.

[Just Crazy Jim]

This page has a works diagram for a PRR E1, which is pretty much identical to CNJ 592.

http://www.altoonaworks.info/diagrams.html

Hey how about one of these beasts? It's remarkably appealing for something so gruesome. I'm beginning to understand how mother warthogs must feel.

Heh. I was just searching my folders for a photo of a Camelback Mallet-type and presto! bingo! you come up with one faster than I can. And a better image than the one I have on disk at that.

And I so understand. I have little love for the sleek showboats, they all look pretty much the same. The grotty looking beasts at least have character.

[Gumboots]

If you like the Erie L1, have you seen this page?

http://www.trainweb.org/milepost51/eriel1.html#L-1

Come to think of it, the L1 has potential for a unique game slot. Slow (30mph top speed), but with very low fuel costs due to the use of culm and compounding, and with masses of gruntitude. It'd make an ideal heavy hauler for coal and iron trains in the mountains.

And I like the showboats too. The LNER P-2 is an all time classic IMO. Never fancied the A4's much.

[Just Crazy Jim]

If you like the Erie L1, have you seen this page?

http://www.trainweb.org/milepost51/eriel1.html#L-1

Come to think of it, the L1 has potential for a unique game slot. Slow (30mph top speed), but with very low fuel costs due to the use of culm and compounding, and with masses of gruntitude. It'd make an ideal heavy hauler for coal and iron trains in the mountains.

And I like the showboats too. The LNER P-2 is an all time classic IMO. Never fancied the A4's much.

By the book, they had a higher top speed, but in the line of duty, pushing a half-million tons of coal up a 3-3.5% grade, they never saw it. The biggest upside of the slow speed was they had about the closest to "perfect" reliability of any steam loco ever made.

I am more a BR B12 man, myself. But, I can see the appeal of the P2s. Not a great lot of difference between them in terms of looks.

[Gumboots]

You must be thinking of a different P2. The LNER P2 2-8-2...



... doesn't look anything like a BR B12.



The Erie L-1 had the driver diameter to go a lot faster than 30 mph, but they had to be fired by one bloke with one shovel. My bet is they rarely ever reached 30, except maybe downhill.

[Just Crazy Jim]

You must be thinking of a different P2. The LNER P2 2-8-2...



... doesn't look anything like a BR B12.



The Erie L-1 had the driver diameter to go a lot faster than 30 mph, but they had to be fired by one bloke with one shovel. My bet is they rarely ever reached 30, except maybe downhill.

Heh, you're right - trust me to remember the P1 as the P2. In my memory, all the LNER locos are sort of mashed together as "long green things with a lot of wheels". I only recall the BR B12 fondly because I had an OO scale set with one as a kid

I've seen film of some locos from the same era as the L-1 with as many as three firemen feeding the firebox, but it wasn't culm they were shoveling. So, it is conceivable that they might have more than one guy with one shovel, but the size of the firebox and boiler and the fact it was burning culm, I figure you're right, 30 m.p.h. might be the cap. even with 3 men working the firebox.

[Gumboots]

Fair enough then. I basically remember the coal-hauling locos from my childhood as "small black smoky things covered in crap".

Which is not to say I didn't like them. Just that I didn't know much about them at the time.

[Gumboots]

Ok, where were we? Oh yeah. Speed and grade spreadsheets! Woohoo!

I pulled out some saved games and had a look through them. As expected, mileage for any given locomotive can vary a lot depending on what it's doing. If it heads out onto the plains of Africa and really gets going, it will cover lotsa miles. If it's hopping between little towns in Italy it might only cover half the distance. This mean any guesstimations on mileage for running cost comparisons are going to require people to use their own judgement. Life's like that.

FWIW, here are the results I got from a little bit of number crunching. It's not much, but it's a start.

The results from the South Africa map are pretty clear. The 2-6-4T has a higher top speed on flat terrain, but that map isn't dead flat and the Berkshire is better up grades. So it looks like they balance out for distance covered.

The Italy results are a bit tricky because of the variations in runs. The Class 01 should be able to cover a lot more ground than the Kriegslok, but they were stopping all towns to get maximum express traffic while some of the Kriegsloks were on longer runs. So that accounts for the maximum mileages for both locos being much the same.

Ditto for the Blue Mountains results. Different runs give different yearly mileage. But generally it looks like for two locos on the same run, mileage will be roughly proportional to top speed with the given consist. If the terrain isn't dead flat, take into account top speed on the relevant grades. Perhaps a 2% average would be a good place to start for most undulating runs.

And you can probably assume revenue is proportional to mileage, all else being equal, so I'd take that into account when comparing the spreadsheet's running costs.

[Gumboots]

Looking at that a bit more, the 2-6-4T is a bit of a super engine. Not in terms of outright speed so much, but because of the combination of very low fuel bills with reasonable speed. This is a product of the very light weight in combination with the Above Average fuel rating.

Since tanks like that were only used for short hops IRL, and since short hops between more stations will result in lower annual mileage, and since with lower mileage a higher fuel bill wouldn't matter so much, there's a good argument for increasing the 2-6-4T's fuel consumption. This would still give it a place in its intended niche, but could make the running costs over very long runs high enough to rule it out, or at least to not make using it a no-brainer.

[Gumboots]

Hey here's something I didn't expect. The American 4-4-0 and the Connie and the Duke all have exactly the same running cost when hauling B era mixed traffic + caboose. This is true over a huge range of mileage too.

However, the Connie has far more grunt than the other two. Which means that there's absolutely no point in running anything other than Connies once they're available, unless you're in a situation where the Duke's extra acceleration and pax appeal would be relevant (IOW, short hops between closely spaced towns, with express on flat terrain).

[Just Crazy Jim]

Hey here's something I didn't expect. The American 4-4-0 and the Connie and the Duke all have exactly the same running cost when hauling B era mixed traffic + caboose. This is true over a huge range of mileage too.

However, the Connie has far more grunt than the other two. Which means that there's absolutely no point in running anything other than Connies once they're available, unless you're in a situation where the Duke's extra acceleration and pax appeal would be relevant (IOW, short hops between closely spaced towns, with express on flat terrain).

American_Connie_Duke_stats.png

I didn't know that, but I'm not surprised. Based on my loosely remembered results, when they are prime, I usually run the Connies on freight and the Dukes on PAX whenever they're available. I never run the American, it's just too ugly for me. And I made a replacement set of textures for the Duke, because, really? That's supposed to be Highland Railway Yellow? What were you thinking PopTop? Cadmium Yellow paint hadn't even been developed when the Duke was running the rails... sheesh...

[Gumboots]

I've always run Connies for their grunt and ability to haul ass up grades. I'll even happily use them for express on undulating terrain, simply because once they're wound up they just keep going. They'll beat a Stirling on station to station times if the terrain isn't perfect, even when hauling a heavier load.

Screenshot shows speeds with 6 express + dining car + caboose. The Stirling is faster than the Connie on dead flat terrain, if you knock a couple of paying cars off its consist. As soon as the grade hits 2%, the Connie will haul a full consist and still be 76% faster than the Stirling with a 6 car consist. Even on a 1% grade the Connie will be 25% faster.

However, I'd always assumed they cost more to run. Turns out to not be the case. The Connie is the cheapest of the three with this consist, regardless of miles covered, and it's purely down to locomotive weight. The Duke and Stirling have a better fuel economy rating but are heavier, so it cancels out and the Connie ends up slightly ahead on cost. As well as having much more hauling ability. Things like this are where the game's basic ratings can lead you astray. There are heaps of examples, with the Big Boy being the worst.

Apparently the Dukes were actually painted green in service, at least while Jones was in charge.

[Just Crazy Jim]

I've seen them with green and but mostly I've seen just straight black, but only ever seen one photo of a Duke painted yellow and that was a 20th century rebuild. I think the yellow paint of the era was less appealing to the eye - more of a toffee tan-brown than road stripe yellow. I've seen a few era steamers vetted out with period yellow and was not impressed by the colour. I can see why a man might choose green over that.

[Gumboots]

The straight black was probably later, when they were just about obsolete and LMS got their hands on them.

Anyway I added a screenshot to the previous post, showing a comparison between the Connie, Duke and Stirling. The Connie is way ahead if you give it room to wind out.

[Gumboots]

By the way, this page has some good detail shots of Highland Railway livery from the Jones period, if you're interested. This is what the Duke class would have carried originally.

Ian Rathbone - Gallery 5

[Just Crazy Jim]

By the way, this page has some good detail shots of Highland Railway livery from the Jones period, if you're interested. This is what the Duke class would have carried originally.

ianrathbonemodelpainting.co.uk/

I'm telling you, these modeler sorts are the hardest of the hard-core. And if they're modeling in brass, diamond hard hard-core. :D

[Gumboots]

Just tried a few more things. Ran a comparison on the post-1900/pre-1950 express locos to see what turned up. All were calculated with 7 x C era express + dining car, on a long run with plenty of miles to burn fuel.

Short version is most of them are pretty useless. If you have the choice of the lot of them it comes down to the H10 Mikado (which has a Looks Sharp rating) or the Class 01 or the Mallard. The Mallard is the fastest if grades are 0 or 1%. All three are basically even on a 2% grade.

Compared to the Mallard, the Class 01 is one notch down on pax appeal but has much better reliability, so would probably be a better bet on 2% grades. As soon as the grade gets over 2% the H10 Mikado has a clear advantage in terms of speed. It's also the cheapest to run, although not by a huge amount.

The Eight Wheeler is very cheap to run and, on flat terrain, could be useful in branch line service where you don't get full consists. Acceleration is good and it's fast if lightly loaded.

The Atlantic is competitive on running cost but doesn't have much else going for it. The Pacific and Northern are far too expensive to run. Neither have the speed on the flat or up grades to compete with the H10 Mikado, Class 01, or Mallard.

The Class 500 has fairly cheap running costs, but no other advantages.

Just for the heck of it I had a quick play with a Duke skin too. Turns out a basic hue change puts it pretty close to a Caledonian blue that a Scottish modellers' site had on one of their Highland locos (see the River class here). The default blue striping turns a nice bronze. It's not a bad start. I also threw a 24-sided boiler at it and that's a big improvement in looks for not many tris.

The default model is pretty accurate. I have a works drawing for the Duke and it's almost a perfect match, allowing for the low poly nature of the model.

[Gumboots]

So I just realised that with all the new express cars sorted, it's now possible to start tuning up the express locos for a bit of light relief. Which is cool. I get to play with trains instead of just coding them.

Have figured out where I want the Duke and Stirling. I think these stats will be pretty close. They're tuned to match the same fuel consumption as the default versions hauling default express, since AFAICT the defaults are in the ballpark for fuel bills. However I've boosted the mangy little mongrels to make them haul express like they ought to.

The Duke had 75" drivers on it, and you don't put 75" drivers on a loco that's intended for service speeds of 50 mph or less. It would have wound out to at least 60, and since it was built for the highlands it would have gone up hills. That's why they built a 4-4-0 back when singles were all the rage for main line work. So it's been boosted to 62 mph top speed, and it will go up grades with a full express consist almost as well as a default Connie goes up hills hauling default B era freight.

The Stirling has had a boost too, to make it more like it was in real life (which wasn't bad at all). Same top speed as it has always had, but stronger up grades. Not as strong as the Duke, as a 2-2-2 wouldn't have the same adhesion as a 4-4-0, but good enough that it won't have you headbutting the keyboard as soon as it sees an anthill five miles away.

Both will be getting reliability ratings of Above Average, so they can haul full express consists without needing a caboose. The Stirling will keep its Ultra Cool pax rating, and the Duke will be either Looks Sharp or Very Cool on the new scale.

And just because I could, I played around with some quick ideas for Stirling skins. The less lurid green is pretty close to LNWR of the period. The red is channelling Midland. The tan has got Stroudleyitis but is still rather good. The blue is good old Caledonian, and the slate grey was taken from one of the many LT&SR liveries of the later 19th century.

I rather like that one. Methinks tis kinda elegant.