Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age.

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Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

Since we've been delving into passenger appeal and fuel economy lately and seem to pretty much have those sorted, I figured the next cab off the rank should be reliability testing. So, I did some. It's weird.

First thing I discovered is that unlike fuel consumption it's not initially dependent on weight. All brand new locos with the same reliability rating will have the same breakdown chance.

Next thing I figured out is that the breakdown chance is very badly worded. I'd always just assumed it was what it said: a percentage. In other words, 15% is 15 out of 100. I just noticed *!*!*! that the text that shows when you hover your cursor over the breakdown bar says it is a chance "out of one thousand miles". This is a new and exciting definition of "percentage". Percentage has apparently been redefined so that 15% means 15 out of 1,000.

This, although colossally idiotic, would explain why trains don't break down as often as their breakdown bar suggests they would. If the breakdown bar says 25%, what the stupid thing actually means is 2.5%. Things like this make me contemplate the usage of my cornucopia of naughty words. Anyway, just take the "percentage" and divide by ten if you want an idea of how often your train is likely to break down. !*th_up*!

Moving right along, empty brand new locos sitting at a station are all very well, but you need to load them up and use them. So I did. A brand new unloaded J class has a breakdown chance of 1.3 not-percent. Load up the J class and it jumps to 3.9 not-percent, or three times the unloaded value. For comparison, a new unloaded Kriegslok rated Above Average for reliability has a breakdown chance of 3.0 not-percent, which jumps to 9.7% not-percent with 8 freight cars, or a bit over three times the initial value.

Ok, so this is the for new locos. Next thing is to find out what happens with age. For this I just left locos sitting empty at the stations, and kept track of how their breakdown chance changed. It doesn't change during each year. It only changes at the start of every new year, at the same time as the displayed age of the loco changes. What's more, it doesn't always change at a constant rate. It rapidly gets worse in years 0 to 2, increasing by a factor of around 3.5 depending on reliability rating. After that it slows right down and changes to a constant rate. This means your locomotives are almost as unreliable after 3 years as they are after 8 years.

N&W J class goes 1.3 > 2.6 > 4.5 > 4.6 > 4.7 > 4.8 etc, at 0.1 intervals after the first few years.
The Krieglsok goes 3.0 > 6.2 > 10.8 > 11.1 > 11.4 etc, at 0.3 intervals after the first few years.
The old Firefly goes 8.6 > 17.9 > 30.7 > 31.7 etc, at 1.0 intervals after the first few years.

The change in breakdown chance when loaded tracks the increased unloaded chance pretty well.

J class at 9 years old has a breakdown chance of 5.5 unloaded, and 17.2 loaded. This is still close to three times, just like it was when new. A 9 year old Kriegslok is 13.1 unloaded, and 42.0 loaded. That's a bit over three times, same as when new. The 9 year old Firefly is much the same. It's 37.4 unloaded and a massive 125.8 loaded, which is a change of 3.36 to 1. Its ratio is about 3.57 to 1 when new, so pretty much in line with the J class and Kriegslok at the same age.

Now I just happened to have looked at a saved game of mine that was running a pile of Kriegsloks on the Italy map. A fifteen year old Kriegslok that had just been sitting at the station would have a breakdown chance of about 15 unloaded. Loaded up it would be about 48. Funnily enough, a fifteen year old Kriegslok that had been hauling freight up and down the coast from Rome to Salerno and back had a breakdown chance (when full of oil) of about 24. Since this train was running 7 D era freight cars plus a caboose its breakdown chance was halved, so that's in line with the 48 you'd expect without the caboose.

"Full of oil" is the next part. By tracking that train and several others over the course of their runs, I figured out that breakdown chance increases by 1 not-percent for every 5% decrease in oil level. Again, this was with a caboose, so without a caboose it'd be increasing by 2 instead of 1.

IOW, if you aren't running a caboose, and if you are relying on inline sheds that won't even look at your locos until their oil is less than 50%, and assuming your loco is rated Above Average reliability, then by the time your loco stops for oil its breakdown chance will be at least 20 points higher than just after it has filled up with oil.

I was servicing mine on spurs, so their oil never dropped below 70%, and of course they had the caboose as well. That means their reliability never dropped more than 3 points due to oil over the course of their service lives.

So that's the basics for reliability changes with age, oil level, and load, on terrain that is close to flat. I haven't had time to do an in-depth study to see if grades make any difference. I'm starting to suspect they won't. I am getting the impression it's only dependent on age and load (yes RoR, you did suggest this :mrgreen: ).

After all that, what does it mean for our cunning plan to increase freight weights? My 2c is that I know Kriegsloks with 7 freight cars and a caboose will give decent post-1950 service for up to about 15 years on fairly flat terrain. After that they start getting likely to crash and burn, and their maintenance costs are getting high too. On moderate grades I usually load them with 6 cars and a caboose.

I can use that as a guideline for changes in freight weights. It comes down to deciding how long we want locos to be reliable enough, and economical enough to run. If we want a lifespan up to about 15 years, a Kriegslok will do that hauling 840 tons of freight and a 53 ton caboose. If we want to increase the consist weight by 50%, then the loco will need a reliability rating that will handle that load with about the same breakdown chance as a Kreigslok with an 893 ton load. If the loco hauling the heavier load doesn't have a caboose, its loaded breakdown chance will still have to match the Kreigslok, with caboose, to give the same useful service.

In rough terms, a J class hauling 8 freight with no caboose should have about the same in-service reliability as a Kriegslok hauling 7 freight and a caboose. To put it another way, in terms of breakdowns a caboose is worth roughly two levels on the reliability scale.

Once we get a few more figures to narrow down exactly how consist weight affects breakdown chance for varying loads, this should all sort itself out fairly quickly. It's going to be a fairly tightly constrained solution. We'll know for sure how high the maximum freight weights can be, and then just work backwards for mixed traffic and express locos. (0!!0)
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Re: Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

Oh man this is so basic. I just whipped through some more basic sandbox tests. Same three locos, but this time in the A, B and C eras. Same deal as before: loaded them up with 8 freight cars each. There's a bit of data point scatter but not too much.

The change in breakdown chance with consist weight is almost directly proportional to the consist weight. Full D era consist was 960 tons. C era is 480 tons. B era is 240 tons. A era is 120 tons.

J class breakdown chance for D era loaded is 3.00 times unloaded.
J class breakdown chance for C era loaded is 2.08 times unloaded.
J class breakdown chance for B era loaded is 1.62 times unloaded.
J class breakdown chance for A era loaded is 1.23 times unloaded.

So:

D era loaded is (initial) + 2.00(initial)
C era loaded is (initial) + 1.08(initial)
B era loaded is (initial) + 0.62(initial)
A era loaded is (initial) + 0.23(initial)

This is, allowing for rounding errors and whatever, pretty close to adding 2, 1, 1/2 and 1/4 to the initial value. Consist weights are, of course, proportionally 2, 1, 1/2 and 1/4.

Kriegslok breakdown chance for D era loaded is 3.23 times unloaded.
Kriegslok breakdown chance for C era loaded is 2.20 times unloaded.
Kriegslok breakdown chance for B era loaded is 1.57 times unloaded.
Kriegslok breakdown chance for A era loaded is 1.33 times unloaded.

So:

D era loaded is (initial) + 2.23(initial)
C era loaded is (initial) + 1.20(initial)
B era loaded is (initial) + 0.57(initial)
A era loaded is (initial) + 0.33(initial)

Again, that's not too far off a 2, 1, 1/2 and 1/4 progression.

Firefly breakdown chance for D era loaded is 3.35 times unloaded.
Firefly breakdown chance for C era loaded is 2.08 times unloaded.
Firefly breakdown chance for B era loaded is 1.56 times unloaded.
Firefly breakdown chance for A era loaded is 1.27 times unloaded.

So:

D era loaded is (initial) + 2.35(initial)
C era loaded is (initial) + 1.08(initial)
B era loaded is (initial) + 0.56(initial)
A era loaded is (initial) + 0.27(initial)

Hey, same pattern. Also, I cross checked by loading four car consists for B era and comparing that with the 8 car A era consist. Also loaded 4 car C era consist and compared those with 8 car B era consists. Figures match, or near enough to it.

Short version: this has nothing to do with locomotive weight. It only depends on consist weight. Do a little bit of arithmetic, and in ballpark terms adding a consist weight of about 450 tons to a previously unloaded locomotive will double its breakdown chance. This will apply regardless of locomotive type, age or reliability rating. Or, to put it another way, adding a caboose will let you haul 450 tons with the same breakdown chance as an unloaded locomotive. Alternatively, increasing reliability rating by two levels will let you haul 450 tons with roughly the same breakdown chance as an unloaded locomotive

Or, to tell us what we really need to know: a locomotive with a reliability rating of Very Good and a caboose should give good service with consist weights up to about 1,400 tons.

We should be able to use this. (0!!0)
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Re: Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

Hey I figured something out. Allowing for the breakdown chance being rounded off to one decimal place, it's clear the breakdown chance of a brand new locomotive with no consist attached is a basic y = 12[(12-x)/12)^2] with x being the hex value for the rating. This fits in with the generally simplistic coding we've been finding lately. !*th_up*!
Reliability_RT3_new_unloaded.jpg
Edit: Figured out a bit more. The breakdown chance for Year 1 is 29/14 times the breakdown chance for Year 0. Why 29/14? Dunno. It just is. The breakdown chance for Year 2 is 50/14 times the breakdown chance for Year 0. Don't ask. Same answer. ;-)

After Year 2 the breakdown chance increases every year by 1/9 of the Year 0 chance. Why 1/9? Bet you can guess what the answer to that is too. Anyway it does.

Compared to the breakdown chance when unloaded, the breakdown chance with a full D era freight consist is 3 times the initial value for that year, if the reliability rating is Very Good. Below a rating of Very Good it increases to about 3.1 at a Good rating, and 3.2 at an Above Average rating, then the increase tapers off so it only reaches about 3.4 at a Very Poor rating. I'm not sure what the increase with load is for Outstanding and Near Perfect ratings as I haven't checked them yet, but it's obviously going to be 3 or less.

Again, I have no idea what the exact formula behind this is, and at the moment I don't really care since we can just use the numbers generated in the game interface.
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Re: Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

Nutted out a bit more stuff. Taking a Kriegslok with 7 D era freight cars and a caboose as the baseline, and being slightly conservative with the forward estimates, and assuming this is all being run on Expert level difficulty...

to get the same frequency of breakdowns as the Kriegslok, which is rated Above Average for reliability, a more reliable locomotive can obviously haul more. The formula for how much more isn't that complex.

Take (Loaded breakdown chance) divided by (Unloaded breakdown chance) and call the result BC, for want of a better name. This is 3.0 for Very Good, 3.1 for Good, and taking a conservative guess would also be 3.0 for Outstanding.

Next take (the locomotive's unloaded breakdown chance) divided by (Kriegslok's unloaded breakdown chance). Call that R for ratio, just for the heck of it. R is .633 for Good, .433 for Very Good, and .267 for Outstanding.

Once you have those values you can figure out how much you can load the new loco before it starts breaking down more than the Kriegslok with caboose. The Kriegslok's baseline consist weight is 333 tons (7 of 40 ton cars, plus a 53 ton caboose). I'm assuming I'll be going ahead with my plan to cut the caboose to 20 tons. The formula for maximum freight consist weight follows.

If the new locomotive has a caboose, it's: 313(((BC/R) - 1)/(BC -1))

If the new locomotive has no caboose, it's: 333(((BC/(2R)) - 1)/(BC -1))

Isn't that fun boys and girls? :mrgreen:

For a loco rated Above Average, the maximum consist weight is quite obviously 313 tons with a caboose, but only 92 tons without a caboose. That means it would reliably handle 5 of the new D+50 freight cars with a caboose, but would only reliably handle 1 or 2 without a caboose.

With an Above Average rating, you would definitely want to run a caboose at all times.

For a loco rated Good, the maximum consist weight is 580 tons with a caboose, and 230 tons without a caboose. It would easily handle 7 of the new D+50 freight cars with a caboose, but would only reliably handle 4 without a caboose. Hmmm. Looks like a caboose would be profitable.

You could probably get away with a full 8 car consist and no caboose for the first two years, but you'd be pushing your luck after that.

For a loco rated Very Good, the maximum consist weight is 928 tons with a caboose, and 410 tons without a caboose. It would easily handle 7 of the new D+50 freight cars with a caboose, but would only reliably handle 7 without a caboose anyway.

You could probably run 8 cars without a caboose for the first half of its service life, but would want to consider adding a caboose once the loco was about 7 years old.

For a loco rated Outstanding, the maximum consist weight is 1602 tons with a caboose, and 769 tons without a caboose. It would easily handle 8 of the new D+50 freight cars without ever needing a caboose.

I ran these figures for my own benefit, just to see if the proposed 50% increase (to 60 ton cars) was still looking about right. I think it is, at least for the period from 1950 to 2000 or so.
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Re: Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

Engines without a tender (or consist)* have half the breakdown chance of those with one.
*EDIT: I didn't check this out thoroughly and it turns out that it only applies to locos without a consist. This means nothing therefore and I jumped ahead with the following.

Here's another discovery which is going to explain more stuff about the way that the game functions. This explains more in my mind, and gives some hard evidence about how good tank and mountain (discovered this while testing with the Fairlie) engines are for the game even with poorer performance. Also most electrics and diesels are greatly advantaged over steamers this way.

Perhaps it's possible to use an invisible dummy one for these engines to equalize everything. Perhaps this can simply be adjusted out with poorer ratings, but it sure will confuse the ignorant.

Seems there are many modifiers for reliability. For the sake of clarity, what is the assumed minimum of Oil for your potential values?

I saw that you mentioned keeping the level above 70%. Without usage modification events, I am seeing 62% Oil when water runs out. Requiring an acceptable minimum above the mid-forties is going to favor spur maintenance or forced maintenance. The more time a train needs to spend servicing also lowers it's potential profit potential and increases traffic density for the same haulage amount.

I don't say that 70% is bad. Skewing it so that players who use spurs and forced maintenance will maintain the efficiency advantage available from that. I'm fine with that. I would, however, consider taking it down to 62% so that savvy players can maximize all water capacity without needing an Oil stop.

On my test run I ran the Oil level down to 13% on each trip. This was good for testing to make sure the engines were under harsh conditions. The map used (I removed them for the tests) to have events decrease Water and Sand consumption hence the roud trip hence the trip is longer than unmodified Water supply allows. This map didn't use any Oil usage decrease. I tend to feel that Oil and Sand consumption decreases are less common in current maps than those for Water.

To Caboose or not to Caboose. It's a hard call to make. With this new information we may be able to deduce how to use them better. At least they wont affect train performance so much now. Personally, I don't currently used them unless I am forced by many breakdowns. I have noticed that even though the Breakdown Bar remains the same, poor economies make breakdowns and crashes more likely. On occasion I have plastered a caboose onto all my trains just for those deep depressions.

These two considerations will probably only apply to the lower levels. If we try to make adjustments to make engine life longer they may disappear all together.
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Re: Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

Gumboots wrote:"Full of oil" is the next part. By tracking that train and several others over the course of their runs, I figured out that breakdown chance increases by 1 not-percent for every 5% decrease in oil level. Again, this was with a caboose, so without a caboose it'd be increasing by 2 instead of 1.
I already mentioned this over in the other thread, but for the sake of future reference. Here's my finding about this. What seems true for a new loco with no load, isn't true once it is many years old and has a full consist.

Simplest way to illustrate this is with a graph. It's a really simple relationship with the amount of DECREASE in oil level acting as a multiplier on the chance of breakdown with full Oil. BC = Breakdown Chance as I observed it.
Breakdown chance at x Oil level.jpg
Going along with this test I did a basic test of what happens when a train runs out of oil The above relationship would indicate that without Oil breakdown chance will be 2x the full-Oil level, except that once below 0% it is hit with an added penalty equal to the full-Oil level. So without Oil a train has a 3x full-Oil breakdown chance. Not really useful while playing, but that's how the game works.
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Re: Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

RulerofRails wrote:
Engines without a tender have half the breakdown chance of those with one.
Here's another discovery which is going to explain more stuff about the way that the game functions. This explains more in my mind, and gives some hard evidence about how good tank and mountain (discovered this while testing with the Fairlie) engines are for the game even with poorer performance. Also most electrics and diesels are greatly advantaged over steamers this way.

Perhaps it's possible to use an invisible dummy one for these engines to equalize everything. Perhaps this can simply be adjusted out with poorer ratings, but it sure will confuse the ignorant.
At the moment I frankly don't believe that. I've never noticed any reliability advantage for the same nominal rating on engines which don't have a tender. A specific case is the 2-6-4T I was testing recently. Its rate of breakdowns wasn't any more impressive than a Mikado with the same rating. The double header version has the second loco set as the tender, and to the best of my memory does not have twice the breakdown chance of the single version. I will however check it again just to make sure.

If you want a good test case for diesels, check the single and double header SD40 or whatever it is in 1.06 (never use them anyway). That has the second unit set as a tender. However, if this can be confirmed by further testing, then yes we could easily set invisible dummy tenders for other locos. Come to think of it, although I haven't used them for ages I have played with diesels in the past. The ones available on the Italy map in the 1960's weren't all that impressive for reliability in practice IIRC, but their nominal rating was pretty decent.

Another option would be to just set all tender weights to zero. That would mean they wouldn't affect reliability as much. The effect would be roughly the same as reducing the consist by one car. To compensate without affecting reliability, the loco weight could be increased slightly if necessary. TBH though I play steam because I like steam. I'm aware that the game is biased against steam, but past a certain point I don't care. :-D

Edit: Come to think of it, the double header 2-6-4T has the "tender" weight set equal to the loco weight. Given what we now know about how weight in the .car file affects fuel consumption (for all units) and reliability (for units counted as consist) I should probably reduce the weight of the "tender" in the double header, and compensate if necessary by making adjustments to the "locomotive" weight. I would also be good to nail down whether tenders are counted as part of the loco or as consist. My bet is they are counted as consist.

Seems there are many modifiers for reliability. For the sake of clarity, what is the assumed minimum of Oil for your potential values?

I saw that you mentioned keeping the level above 70%. Without usage modification events, I am seeing 62% Oil when water runs out. Requiring an acceptable minimum above the mid-forties is going to favor spur maintenance or forced maintenance. The more time a train needs to spend servicing also lowers it's potential profit potential and increases traffic density for the same haulage amount.

I don't say that 70% is bad. Skewing it so that players who use spurs and forced maintenance will maintain the efficiency advantage available from that. I'm fine with that. I would, however, consider taking it down to 62% so that savvy players can maximize all water capacity without needing an Oil stop.
Usually I service them fully once they are almost out of water. This usually means they aren't completely out of water, since I put the service stuff at whatever city will give a decent run. So often they won't get below 70% oil. I do sometimes run them almost or completely out of water just before a city if that fits with what's on the map. In that case the oil will be slightly lower. I will occasionally run them lower on oil if they can get to a water tower at a spur at one city and then get back to the first city without oil going below 50%, or only very very slightly below. However, when I do that I am aware that such engines will be less reliable after the first few years and are likely to require earlier replacement.

If you want reduced oil consumption, just put an oil consumption reduction into your scenario events. Trying to do it any other way means recoding the .exe, and that's territory I am not going to venture into. It's clear that people already play with lower oil levels than I usually run, and they don't seem to mind, so I reckon if they want to play that way I'm not going to worry about it. !*th_up*!

On my test run I ran the Oil level down to 13% on each trip. This was good for testing to make sure the engines were under harsh conditions. The map used (I removed them for the tests) to have events decrease Water and Sand consumption hence the roud trip hence the trip is longer than unmodified Water supply allows. This map didn't use any Oil usage decrease. I tend to feel that Oil and Sand consumption decreases are less common in current maps than those for Water.
And my guess is that's because scenario authors think "Oh,it runs out of water while it still has oil. I know! I'll reduce water consumption so it can run out of both at about the same time!" without being aware of how bad low oil levels are for reliability.
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Re: Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

RulerofRails wrote:
Gumboots wrote:"Full of oil" is the next part. By tracking that train and several others over the course of their runs, I figured out that breakdown chance increases by 1 not-percent for every 5% decrease in oil level. Again, this was with a caboose, so without a caboose it'd be increasing by 2 instead of 1.
I already mentioned this over in the other thread, but for the sake of future reference. Here's my finding about this. What seems true for a new loco with no load, isn't true once it is many years old and has a full consist.
The example I gave came from observations of 10 to 15 year old Kriegsloks running 7 D era freight + caboose.

Simplest way to illustrate this is with a graph. It's a really simple relationship with the amount of DECREASE in oil level acting as a multiplier on the chance of breakdown with full Oil. BC = Breakdown Chance as I observed it.
Breakdown chance at x Oil level.jpg
Going along with this test I did a basic test of what happens when a train runs out of oil The above relationship would indicate that without Oil breakdown chance will be 2x the full-Oil level, except that once below 0% it is hit with an added penalty equal to the full-Oil level. So without Oil a train has a 3x full-Oil breakdown chance. Not really useful while playing, but that's how the game works.
(0!!0) Nice find. I like it. Makes sense. Have you managed to quantify the permanently applied penalties for running out of oil? Not that anyone should run out of oil (their problem if they do).

Edit: I just realised I should check my consist weight more carefully, due to me running WP&P's custom cars rather than standard PopTop cars. See caveat here.
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Re: Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

Empty tender reliability difference - GP7.jpg
Empty tender reliability difference - GP7.jpg (10.43 KiB) Viewed 8102 times
Here's an illustration of what I was looking at when I made the statement about the effect of a tender. I was in the middle of another batch of engine maintenance figures, so didn't take lots of time to test this. I did take a minute to check if the effect stayed consistent thanks to the 1.06 time travel cheat. Now that I am finished that run and thanks to your post, I tried a simple thing called adding a consist. The effect disappeared completely. :oops: So, this info seems useless. On the bright side, at least it's not another place where the game is broken. An oddity.
Gumboots wrote:Have you managed to quantify the permanently applied penalties for running out of oil?
The effects I have seen are quite small. Over time the side-effects may accumulate, I don't know. The problem with testing this is that there are many possibilites when this could happen, regularly, only once, length of time, size of load at that time, etc.. Some of those factors wont matter, but they all need to be tested to find this out. I could run a test to answer a specific question, but it would have to be quite narrow in scope. I don't have the interest to pursue different possibilities to the point of quantifying it. I am ok with short periods running without water or sand at strategic times, but running without Oil is inexcusable IMO. So I don't feel it's a circumstance we need to plan for.
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Re: Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

Interesting about that tender bug. Good to know about (any bug is good to know about) but as you say won't affect play. At least we don't have to worry about it. !*th_up*!

I agree about testing the out of oil penalty. I'm not that interested in the exact amount either. I just know it's bad, so I avoid it.
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Re: Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

Hey I had a thought here, prompted by just running a quick Connie test for 20 years. This reliability thing is a bit of a nuisance. The catch is that Average reliability doesn't stay Average. As consist weights go up with time, the effectiveness of a given rating decreases.

So ol' Connie ran for 20 years no worries in the late 19th century (although several of Connie's sisters crashed and burned), while hauling 7 car mixed + caboose. There's no way a Connie in her teens would handle that post-1950. The breakdown bar would be through the roof.

We'll have to decide what a reasonable balance is here. My proposed D+50% freight cars pretty much make Good the new Above Average for the late 20th century, but a loco rated Good in the late 19th century would have a very long life if you were only worried about reliability. So maybe maintenance cost should be tied to era as well as to purchase cost and reliability, or something. Not sure yet. Just thought it was worth making a note of.
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Re: Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

I did a little testing with some 60 ton cars. Looks like with an engine age of 15 years we can expect a progression almost like this, where the lower value is for an 8 car consist at full Oil and the higher one at 40% Oil:
Near Perfect: 6.6%-10.5%
Outstanding: 13.3%-21%
Very Good: 26.3%-42.1%
Good: 39.5%-63.1%
The full oil figure is the best possible scenario.

At an engine age of 3 we can expect (these values are slightly approximated):
Near Perfect: 4.9%-7.8%
Outstanding: 9.4%-15%
Very Good: 19.4%-31%
Good: 28%-44.9%

It was awhile since I played a scenario with high breakdown chances. From memory 20% is high and 30% is the limit so definitely need cabooses with Good and probably even Very Good. Which is kind of repeating what you said, but at least I am seeing the same thing.

All these multipliers limit adjustment in the system. A 23yr old Very Good loco is equal in breakdown chance with a 6 year old Good loco. A 23yr old Outstanding loco is better than a 2 year old Very Good loco. A 23yr old Near Perfect loco is better than a 2 year old Outstanding loco. I really wish we could adjust the scale of the levels. I wonder whether anyone thought about doing that when 1.06 was being made.

Only being able to use the top 3 levels realistically might work, but what is the idea for the previous years. Also a 50% increase? We can say that increasing car weight to 60 tons is going to cost us a level of reliability. The current D era Good level (40 REAL ton cars) is slightly worse than Very Good with the proposed 60 ton cars. This relationship continues. It's not exact, but pretty close:
D-era Good = C-era Above Average = B-era Average = A-era Below Average.

The game has no good use for the Poor, Extremely Poor, and Atrocious levels with only 5 locos using them. The base levels here are quite high. Going along with the theme we would need to have 2.5 ton freight cars to have a decent Poor level (Era-A passenger cars are already 3 tons and could be kicked on the lowest "1" perch). To do anything with Extremely Poor would probably require cutting cars in half again and maybe back to 1 ton per freight car. Would require using decimals, but that may be impossible. This might be too much and would definitely mean that Fuel cost would be greatly under-represented by consist weight, but this is already the case with the early engines. Atrocious is a real joke. Even a train without a consist has an unacceptable breakdown risk starting at 19.8% and by year 10 this is 84.1%.

There is always the possibility to consider of trying to reclaim at least the Poor level and a couple of Fuel levels with 3 ton freight cars and 1 ton Express. I discovered something else that would be beneficial here. The Free Weight can be a negative number and this will have the effect of slowing a train's performance. I don't know how balance is with that vs. speed, but if engines were light and a bad fuel level was used we might find it neccesary to add fake weight to adjust performance which may end up looking too flat.

I am thinking to do a little experimenting on the low side of things. I am not saying we should go there, but to test the feasibility first and then we can see what develops. I will make an effort to reclaim a level (Poor). What is the split you were looking for between freight and express? 2:1 or 3:1? I saw 50% freight increase and 25% express decrease mentioned as well as a double idea. Or are you going to not adhere strictly to a principle like this, given that Passenger Appeal is in play now?
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Re: Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

Yup, I was assuming cabooses would be required for some ratings. I wasn't thinking of using the Near Perfect rating, but a mix of Good, Very Good and possibly Outstanding. Was also thinking that ultimately freight cars would be mostly skinned as doubles and triples, but still at around the 60 ton mark, so it would look like you had at least 14 cars + caboose. Obviously the latter doesn't affect performance and is just for added fun.

The plan was also to make express light enough to not only give good demarcation between categories, but to allow express to run very reliably without a caboose. I figure a caboose fits with freight trains but doesn't fit with premium express.

With previous years it's not such an issue, because the consists will be lighter. That means the earlier trains can still comfortably run with lower reliability ratings. There's plenty of scope there, as far as I can tell. Even if we boost late 19th century freight by 50% it will still only be 3/4 the weight of early 20th century default freight, so any loco rating that can handle early 20th century freight (and Connies will do it without much trouble on their Average rating) will be just fine in the 19th century. I think we'll still be able to use the Poor and Below Average ratings pre-1850 at least , and I can see Below Average having a life into the late 1800's. 20th century will probably need Above Average in the pre-war era, but IMO it needs that already.

Really though, I think people aren't so fussed about reliability ratings. They just want their trains to not break down, and prefer to get their strategic kicks in other directions.

But it comes down to how long you run them too. Check the replacement years thread for the latest on that.

What is the split you were looking for between freight and express? 2:1 or 3:1? I saw 50% freight increase and 25% express decrease mentioned as well as a double idea.
If you mean weight difference, I was thinking up 50% on freight and down 25% on express, so freight would be three times the weight of express. This wouldn't be a hard and fast rule in the early days though. When the only thing available is a Planet, it wouldn't make sense to have a huge weight difference between freight and express. Early locos could hardly haul themselves. So start with whatever seems reasonable in 1830, and then gradually escalate from there.
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Re: Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

Is all this testing you two are doing being done on the same equipment, and is it the default equipment?

I ask because it sure sounds like you're using different equipment from each other and Gumboots is using equipment that's already been tweaked. Sounds kind'a counter-productive.
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Re: Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

I'm a slow learner. I went over some of the same stuff Gumboots did so I could make up some spreadsheets for reliability so I can have some power of prediction and better visaulize rate of change in different circumstances. They're not pretty, but I have pages where I can punch the values and see what the results will be over the whole time period.

I don't really know how to answer your question. I am using the standard equipment for 1.06 except for Lirio's loco pack. I am not aware that anyone tested this stuff very thoroughly before. Hopefully the effort will be useful, and should enable a quality effort to be made when tweaking the locos.

Is there something that you think should be tested in regard to the locos?
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Re: Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

A lot of it doesn't matter. The increase in maintenance cost with age is hard coded into the game engine, so is not affected by custom assets. Same with the degradation of reliability, with the caveat that it is affected by consist weight. That's not an issue as long as we know the consist weights that are being used. RoR has default consists and I have the figures for my WP&P consists. His are heavier than default, so any estimates I make are automatically a bit conservative for reliability etc on default consists.

Similar situation with locomotive stats. As long as we know what they are, it shouldn't be a problem. It comes down to everyone communicating clearly what they are using for which test. More variety is good, as long as we know what and where everything is.
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Re: Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

OK! I was just curious.

So, any changes you guys make will be basically the same and can be applied to all equipment, whether it's default equipment or some other updated/tweaked equipment?
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Re: Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

The general idea is to change pretty much all loco and cargo car stats, to get a better definition between pure freight, mixed traffic, and pure express, so that each category is actually useful and interesting. At least that's the aim as I understand it. We want to get away from just running auto consists everywhere, so the game has more depth, but without taking it to the point where constant micromanaging becomes necessary, or where things start breaking all over the place, both of which IMO would just be a huge PITA. :mrgreen:

That means it'd have be a complete and balanced package. Anything outside the package may not fit that well, unless it is tweaked to fit. So it should provide guidelines for any tweaking equipment at all, and should provide an interesting and balanced framework that any other stuff can be made to fit in, but probably won't include all possible equipment to start with.

I think we're close to the point where we need to agree on a standard setup for the initial testing. That should probably be default 1.05 to start with. It's a slightly simpler test case, and I think we would want any package to work on top of 1.05 anyway. Once we've nutted out how to get it working in 1.05 extending it to 1.06 shouldn't be that big a deal, since it's basically just a few more cargoes and locos and we'll know what to aim for.

I also have to admit that I find the majority of the 1.06 locos (well, the steamers anyway, which is all I use) to be so crude that I never use them. I've seen other people say the same thing. I'd be inclined to ignore those locos, and throw in some of the custom locos if we want an extended roster. That's basically what I do when playing anyway. I tend to regard most of the 1.06 steamers as ideas which may be useful eventually, if anyone ever has the time and inclination to finish them (which quite obviously nobody does, at least so far) but which aren't worth considering at the moment.

Incidentally that brings up another point. Testing this stuff with diesels and electrics would be a waste of time from my perspective, and there's already enough to do. Anyone who wants a better version for diesels and electrics would have to be prepared to do their own testing.
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Re: Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

I may have limited time sometimes, but I can do some work on the Electrics and Diesels. With the guidelines we are nutting out, and the experience in lining the steamers up right the later extension of these principles to Electric and Diesel should be easy. I would be in favor of taking away some of the advantage that Electrics and Diesels currently have.

My hope with this is that there isn't too large a difference between the economics of the locos in one class (Mixed, Express, Diesel, Steam, etc). A potential target variation would be 25%. Everyone seems to want to vary the locos they use on a map. I get tired of using some of the same ones over and over simply because they are vastly more economical than others. This can be clearly seen from the data table I made that compared average speed with fuel cost. Some are currently over 2x the running cost in fuel alone.

Deciding on the classes for locos may be tricky. Some compromise will have to be made. But if I understand right we could always use two .lco files if we want to use the same loco for different classes. That's probably not an ideal practice as it will take up loco slots, but maybe there will be a couple that we wont be able to define. For Diesels and Electrics this will be tricky as well. Opinions will vary, but if someone wants to gather the facts on the major uses on the locos in the game that would be helpful. Even if they know good places to find that info. I am not a fanatic about particular engines, trains in general make me *,*! .

Gumboots, I finally decided I better take a look into the effect of age on fuel cost. I have only run one test so far but I am seeing an increase of 1/44 of the base fuel cost (at engine age 0) each year. When this is taken it account I am expecting to see my optimum replacement ages skewed downwards for those locos with high fuel costs. Still working on it, but will post my findings once I am satisified that I have done my best to get the figures right.
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Re: Hypothesis: Reliability depends on voodoo, phase of the moon, and age. Unread post

TBH I might be able to stand doing a bit of testing on infernal abominations, particularly the more noisy and smelly ones, as long as they were just behaving themselves over in a corner and I got to spend most of my testing time playing with steamers. :-D

The variation in economics is something I agree on. At the moment I find dedicated express locos to be generally useless most of the time. I think the economics of express is borked. For a start the locos are too weak to do the job they are supposed to do, so the only way to run them on non-perfect terrain is with piddly consists. Express locos should haul express like freight locos haul freight. It's their job. They should do it, and do it well. The express locos are also generally too expensive to run, even if they did have the guts to haul. I think that needs fixing. OTOH I think mixed consist and freight already works, so we more or less just have to preserve the status quo there. My main focus with the greater variation in weight is to finally get a dedicated express category being a useful part of the game. It's also one of the less well-understood aspects of the game, so should provide scope for more interesting play if it can be made to work well.

And yeah multiple .lco files etc are possible. I don't think using up slots is too big a problem since it's easy enough to replace .lco and .car files for different purposes. The PK4's don't need to be changed. They can all just be sitting around, ready to be called by the .lco and .car when those are in place.

Will be interested to see what turns up on fuel cost. !*th_up*!
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