Oh dear, he's done it again (1865 Ten Wheeler).

[Gumboots]

So I got this thing running, after having it sitting around for ages. Note that skinning and UV mapping is not to what I would consider archive standards, because it's still patched up out of the PopTop American 4-4-0 skin. Eventually I'll get around to rejigging the UV mapping to make it saner, and sort out a proper skin in the style of the period.

However, it's halfway decent as it is and quite good fun to play with. Stats are provisional, but should be in the ballpark. After some discussion between RoR and myself we decided it was best to stick to the original plan, and set it up for express on grades with a moderate top speed and an 1865 introduction date. This is basically what the prototype was built for. It started its life hauling Civil War troops and supplies over the Allegheny Mountains.

Anyway, here it is.

Zip is attached below. Installation is the usual. EngineTypes files in Data/EngineTypes. PK4 in PopTopExtraContent.

Edit: Stats have been revised already, after some in-game testing indicated they should be changed to better fit with other US locos of the period. If anyone wants to try them, I've packed up the EngineTypes files with the current test stats for the Perkins, Connie, Mogul, Pennsy H3 and Eight Wheeler. Zip attached below.

These stats seem to be playing well as a good mix on the Guatemala map, which has a good range of terrain for testing. They are being used with my custom cargo cars, so freight weights range from 90% to 150% of PopTop B era freight, while express cars are 65% of the PopTop B era weights.

[Gumboots]

I was checking out the William Halsey Locomotive Drawing Collection to get some more ideas for liveries of the period, since it's one of the best sources available, and noticed something.

All these locomotives are Erie Railroad, and out of 84 listed only 2 of them are 4-6-0's. The other 82 are all 4-4-0's.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit: A correction here. After checking more carefully I found that there are also two 2-6-0's in the mix, and that two of the 4-4-0's have two pictures of them with slightly different liveries. So although there are 84 pictures they represent 82 locomotives, 78 of which are 4-4-0's. I'm don't know why two of the locos have two different pictures of them. It may be that they are before and after pictures, from when the unit arrived at the shop to be worked on and when it left, or it may be that Halsey was just trying out different livery ideas for the boss.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The other thing that's noteworthy is that about a third of them (including both of the 4-6-0's) have inside cylinders connected to crank axles, instead of the usual outside cylinders that would be expected on American choofers. Turns out that in the 1850's, New England builders and operators often preferred the inside cylinders for steadier running at high speed. With the reciprocating masses closer to the centreline, they tended to wobble their noses less than choofers with outside cylinders. This is the same reason why the English used inside cylinders a lot during the 19th century. The drawback is obviously the weakness of crank axles in those days, and the additional cost of making them, which is why they went out of favour in the US.

Judging from various details, including years of operation for some of the listed builders, the dates on the Halsey drawings appear to be dates when the locomotive was in a shop for maintenance or rebuilding. The inside-cylinder units appear to have been built in the 1850's, and would have been 10 or 20 years old by the time the drawings were done. Still, Erie obviously found them useful enough to keep quite a lot of them, so they were presumably quite common in some other companies too.

[Gumboots]

Added a custom pack of .lco and .car files to the OP, to balance the Thatcher Perkins with the Connie, Mogul, Pennsy H3 and Eight Wheeler.

[bombardiere]

My reaction was exactly as in the headline "Oh dear he has done it again" so in this case the blurb was correct.

Thank you for sharing this. I have played with it and I love it. Even if you will not bother to make a new skin, I will be very happy with this version.

I looked at your balanced stats for US locos with great interest. Balancing the locos has always been hard, but I feel that you are heading for right direction. But I have not yet playtested these.

I have never wanted to mess with game's American 4-4-0, so it has been kind of yard stick. But I have had difficulties with Mogul. What is its role in the game? When I did my Mogul, it was intended to be later big Mogul. That is why its stats were "better". In this balanced list it is an early Mogul. I see that you have given it lower top speed, but quite good climbing and pulling. Thus it might be useful in mountainous routes. Thus it would have nice niche over American, which can be left for plains and side routes. I like this.

Consolidation has been changed so many times that I can't count. The game's 60 mph speedster is no good. I think we all agree on this one. I see that you have dropped top speed even more, but given more power, so on a paper it looks good.

However I feel that Pennsylvanian H3 is too similar to this balanced Connie. I would like to see it being a bit more better than 1875 Connie. Not much, but perhaps more speed or pulling power. I think that there is room as Pennsy H3 next competitor is H10 Mikado and with top speed of 55 mph and 17 grade climbing the latter still leaves H3 far behind. And as your 4-6-0 has been available about 30 years when H3 comes into play, so I don't think there is need to direct competition between these two.

You give Thatcher Perkins' top speed as 52 mph, I think it is good. However, it has very low pulling power. 18 if I looked it right. This kind of restrict it to fast passenger service. I don't know for sure, but perhaps the Ten Wheeler should be similar to Duke. So that the Duke could be finally scrapped form NA loco list.

Ok this makes me think that there is need for 1860's fast American. I use Sid Meyer Railroad's model for this role. i know it is not great, but gives me a stopgap for faster passenger role.

[Gumboots]

I'm liking it a lot too. The skin is ok when you're in the game and not looking too closely, and the overall look and feel of the thing is very enjoyable. But still, at some point it should get a revamp. Apart from anything else, having the UV mapping somewhat saner would make it a better base for further customisation if anyone wants to do that. So I'll take another look at it sometime maybe sorta soonish, if you know what I mean.

I've always seen the Mogul as what it was in real life: the sort of freight slug everybody used before Connies became common. I think it makes sense for that role. I'm finding the current stats make it a good little hauler while you're waiting for Connies. Once Connies arrive they are definitely better for heavy freight duties, but the Mogul is cheaper and is still usable for lighter work.

I haven't thought about the American much yet. That must be up for consideration soon. I did have this idea:

Incidentally, while I think of it, another option if we want a bit more choice in the 1850's is to do what a lot of companies did in real life, and have two variants of the standard 4-4-0. One with larger drivers and a shorter stroke for express duties, and another with smaller drivers and a longer stroke for freight duties. Baldwin and others had these as stock items well into the 1870's and '80's. They all shared the same basic bits, and only changed the wheels and cylinders and a few minor parts.

So we could model one up, do the same things with it, give them fancier and plainer paint jobs, and set stats to suit. Convenient from a modelling and skinning perspective, and historically accurate as well.

But even a "fast" 1860's American wouldn't have exceeded 60 mph, and it wouldn't have had the pulling power of a 4-6-0.

I also roughed out a B&O 0-8-0 from around 1850, which funnily enough was designed by Thatcher Perkins himself. This is just using the default Baldwin 0-6-0 as a base, but is accurate for proportions and arrangement.



The Pennsy H3 is still better than the Connie. It's not much faster in basic mph, but it will haul the same weight with a lower running cost and better reliability. I'd probably wind the Mikado back a bit too. They weren't capable of hauling full freight consists at 55 mph, so the default stats are a bit like the default Connie-with-a-rocket-up-it.

The Perkins is meant mainly for express duties, with a bit of light freight here and there. It will haul freight up grades in the 1860's, but the Mogul is a better choice.

And yes, the idea is to not have the Duke (or the Stirling) in US scenarios. It annoys everyone in US scenarios. It should be restricted to UK/Euro ones, and possibly some countries that used UK exports. I'm not trying to make every locomotive fit together. I'm happy to have duplicates for different regions, so that you can have US express and freight locomotives that look like it, and UK express and freight ditto.

[bombardiere]

I haven't thought about the American much yet. That must be up for consideration soon. I did have this idea:

Incidentally, while I think of it, another option if we want a bit more choice in the 1850's is to do what a lot of companies did in real life, and have two variants of the standard 4-4-0. One with larger drivers and a shorter stroke for express duties, and another with smaller drivers and a longer stroke for freight duties. Baldwin and others had these as stock items well into the 1870's and '80's. They all shared the same basic bits, and only changed the wheels and cylinders and a few minor parts.

So we could model one up, do the same things with it, give them fancier and plainer paint jobs, and set stats to suit. Convenient from a modelling and skinning perspective, and historically accurate as well.

But even a "fast" 1860's American wouldn't have exceeded 60 mph, and it wouldn't have had the pulling power of a 4-6-0.

Yes, this is pretty much in a way that I see it. I gave my SMR American model top speed something like 55 mph and pulling power of a fly ... ermh... a Planet. (well slightly more. ) I like to use it in lowland routes with high passenger density.

I also roughed out a B&O 0-8-0 from around 1850, which funnily enough was designed by Thatcher Perkins himself. This is just using the default Baldwin 0-6-0 as a base, but is accurate for proportions and arrangement

I think I may have eyed the same drawing as back when I was active I fantasied about Baldwin's 0-8-0. And if we are talking about US balanced stats, then Bladwin 0-6-0 must in the discussion. I have downgraded it to 30 mph top speed, but I still think it is too good. In RRT3 form it is better than many express locos. But then again so was Pop Top's Connie.

Another engine I have fantasied about is Improved Norris 4-4-0 from 1843. One of first 4-4-0 and some what bigger than game's 4-2-0 Norris. And this winter I found a PDF book about Pennsylviania historic engines. More things to fantasise.

The Pennsy H3 is still better than the Connie. It's not much faster in basic mph, but it will haul the same weight with a lower running cost and better reliability.

When did your 8 step goods wagon setup change? I mean that what is game switchover year from lighter wagons to next heavier type. I feel that the Pennsy H3 would be best if it could pull heavier cars than Connie with atleast same level of performance. e.g. having the same speed. Or preferably a bit faster so that there would be progressive improvement of technology. But I have not tested your models in this context.

But yes, I agree that not everything has to match to each other. I may have said it before, but my prime reasoning for Vittorio Emmaunele was to produce a lemon.

[Gumboots]

I think I may have eyed the same drawing as back when I was active I fantasied about Baldwin's 0-8-0. And if we are talking about US balanced stats, then Bladwin 0-6-0 must in the discussion. I have downgraded it to 30 mph top speed, but I still think it is too good. In RRT3 form it is better than many express locos.

I don't mind freight locos being better than express locos up hard grades. They really have to be, otherwise they'd never get the freight up the hill, so a lot of the time they might also haul the lighter express consists up hard grades (like 5-6%) faster than an express loco. But the freight locos shouldn't be faster on flat terrain, and we can set them so they aren't. As long as an express loco isn't too bad up hard grades, it should still be the better option due to the pax appeal rating boosting revenue, and it will be faster downhill of course.

When did your 8 step goods wagon setup change? I mean that what is game switchover year from lighter wagons to next heavier type.

Depends on the cargo. It's broken down into light freights with fast rot times (stock cars and reefers), medium freights that are boxcars and flatcars, and heavy freights that are hoppers and tankers.

Weight ratio is 1.0 for express, 2.0 for light freight, 2.5 for medium freight, and 3.4 for heavy freight. The light and heavy freights, along with troop cars, change in 1840 > 1865 > 1890 etc. The mediums, along with pax/dining/mail/caboose, change in 1850 > 1875 > 1900 etc. Weight increase is approximately 35% for each era change, so the medium freights are as heavy as the heavy freights for ten years, until the heavies get their era change. This wasn't the original plan but it turned out to be the best one.

The Pennsy should outclass the Connie once the 1900 change hits. That's when the extra reliability and fuel economy will count. But yes, having played with them some more on the Guatemala map, I think the balancing still needs a bit of adjustment. The Pennsy does need to be a little bit stronger than it is. The first bunch of stats I made for it were too strong, but the current stats are probably a little on the low side.

[Gumboots]

Hey I haz another express choofer. This one is a twenty wheeler.

Yep, it's a Garratt. Same deal as the current Schools class beta, in that the mesh is sorted but the skinning is currently very basic. However, it all works.

I'm quite enthusiastic about this one, so I think better skinning and the Class L freight version won't be too far off. It's a bit of a tricky packing project, but I think with a bit of cunning I can get detailing as good as the Pennsy H3.

The Class M was an eight cylinder express loco, which I've posted info on before in various places. It's set up to use my custom express cars, of course. Stats are provisional but should be pretty close to what's required.

Go give it a flogging.

[Firefly 2-2-2]

Hi there Gumboots, I ver much liked all your work esp. the new redesigned Ten Wheeler. Downloading it now.

[Gumboots]

Glad you like it. It is quite good fun to play with.

[Firefly 2-2-2]

Hi there Gum,

On an unrelated note, I found out by using 7zip that your issue with .rar files seems very simple. All you have to do is to right click on a .rar file, click "Properties", then choose "open with" 7zip. It'll open all .rar files normally.

[Gumboots]

And if you just use zip like everyone else, nobody has to frig around at all.

[Firefly 2-2-2]

Hi there, I have a couple of questions:

1 - What is the Passenger appeal of the 2-6-0 Mogul and the 2-8-0 Consolidation after the revamp? They all get these weird "Stuck at 1am" figures, but the Mogul seems to earn pretty low from Pax somehow.

2 - I liked most of the changes. However the Connie coming in 1865 will be sorely missed, esp. in those high grade scenarios where - you know - you just need the Connie's pulling power and nothing else. The Mogul seems good for freight only, while the American works well in flat terrain but suffers at grades. Ingenuity when laying track must be at work in here, I mean .

3 - The Thatcher Perkins is a premier Express locomotive, in fact the best one after the Beuth and the Crampton get obsolete (if you somehow manage to have access to these two locos at any time) up to the time the Pacific comes. Not every loco gets "Ultra Cool", plus the Thatcher Perkins is far better than the Stirling at grades. Rough places demand rough locos, I mean.

[Gumboots]

1/ The Mogul is set to 80% and the Connie is set to 70%. If you have the Pennsy H3, you should also have the custom RT3.lng for the expanded pax appeal scale.

2/ You don't really need it. You're just used to having rocket-powered Connies in 1865. It's perfectly possible to play without them.
The Mogul is intended for freight (that's what they were used for) and is pretty strong up grades.
The American has always been weak on grades. I haven't done anything to it.

3/ The Eight Wheeler is better on flat terrain, once it becomes available.

[Firefly 2-2-2]

1/ The Mogul is set to 80% and the Connie is set to 70%. If you have the Pennsy H3, you should also have the custom RT3.lng for the expanded pax appeal scale.

I didn't install the Pennsy H3. That's why there might be a problem with it. I'll try checking out the files again, but hey, what's "80%" and "70%" in game terms? "Acceptable" or whatnot?

[Firefly 2-2-2]

Hi there, I just got your files for the Pennsy.

Yeah, in terms of game balance, in between the Mikado H10 and the Connie, during the 1890-1918 timespan, there's a shortage of a good loco that will really do the job well, at least for America since Europe gets the excellent Class P8 already. So the Pennsy is really welcome.

EDIT - OK boy now the Readme file with the Pennsy already does a nice job of explaining this Extended Pax Scale. Thanks. So the Mogul and the Connie are now really ugly and unfit for Pax traffic, I understand. No problems, there's still plenty of freight to haul around to my factories.

EDIT - The Pennsy is only ever good for Freight, forget it. And it's better than the Camelback, as I can see.

[Gumboots]

Yeah, the idea is the Eight Wheeler is your 1890's express loco. The Pennsy does freight, but for lines with small amounts of pax traffic, and large amounts of freight or non-pax express, the loss of income from using the Pennsy on any "any cargo" setting would be minimal. It's still usable for mixed haulage if you just want to grab whatever is going on branch lines.

I just checked the Pennsy uploads and the pax scale has been changed since slightly then, so I should update them. We're now using this scale:

Code: Select all

	;@gumbootz: Customised passenger appeal ratings begin here.
	;---------------------------------------------------------------------
	;	#ID     Rating Name     Revenue     Hex value       Default string
	;---------------------------------------------------------------------
	;	2703 - Ultra Cool       140%        12 00 00 00     Frozen at 8 am
	;	2702 - Very Cool        130%        11 00 00 00     Frozen at 7 am
	;	2688 - Looks Sharp      120%        03 00 00 00     Ultra Cool
	;	2687 - Looks Good       110%        02 00 00 00     Looks Sharp
	;	2686 - Acceptable       100%        01 00 00 00     Acceptable
	;	3173 - Unappealing       90%        00 00 00 00     Ugly
	;	2697 - Ugly              80%        0C 00 00 00     Frozen at 2 am
	;	2696 - Very Ugly         70%        0B 00 00 00     Frozen at 1 am
	;	2695 - Gruesome          60%        0A 00 00 00     Frozen at midnight
	;---------------------------------------------------------------------

Which in terms of actual gameplay won't affect the locos we're talking about here, since the same hex code gives the same revenue. We just extended it by one level to give a higher top setting, and rearranged the setting names to give a better progression.

I never use the Camelback in default form. I've done some playing around with stats for that too, along with a basic revamp of mesh and skin.
You can get that here: http://hawkdawg.com/forums/viewtopic.ph ... 230#p45033
The posts about it start here: http://hawkdawg.com/forums/viewtopic.ph ... 220#p45007

[Firefly 2-2-2]

I'll give it a look. The Camelback seems useful as a cheap freight train for some specific branch lines. The Pennsy is a good loco, though, but you can never micromanage enough and I often see my consists loaded up with pax and mail. So yeah, in this case, it would be better to use some other loco.

[Firefly 2-2-2]

I have a question for you again, Gumboots. How do you use the Camelback, or any train at all, as a "shunter"? You mean these specific sorts of trains that go on separate or branch tracks from raw material source to factory, then to consumer market?

[Gumboots]

In an RT3 context, as a short haul unit to deal with cargoes that have minimal price differentials. So where you want to move stuff around, because there is some demand for it, but it's not worth much and top speed is irrelevant.

I was using it on the Latvia map. On that map it's best to have multiple stations in the Riga area, to get adequate coverage and minimise congestion. The multiple stations always end up generating price differentials for a range of cargoes, but there's not much in it. Moving them around makes sense to me, because if they are evened out then the main freight haulage won't depress the price at the port station, which means I don't have to micromanage to keep the haulage goals on target.