New house & station themes?

[Just Crazy Jim]

Has anyone ever tried adding theme packs of houses and stations? Panning through the threads, I've see nothing specifically aimed at that topic.

My thinking is "Art Deco" and "Modern" would be easy models to make.

[Gumboots]

What, no Gaudi?

AFAIK nobody has ever tried it. As you say, it shouldn't be that hard to do. You'd have to be careful about matching your models to the default footprint for the asset in question, since nobody has yet figured out how to edit the footprint. It's also possible you could run into problems with the menu images, since those may be required to be in a PK4 in the 2D folder (I ran into this with icons for flatcars).

[Just Crazy Jim]

Aye aye, Captain. I have seen a few posts about the footprint being the devil.

I've dealt with the similar before. Sort of like when I tried mucking about with the lengthPoint.3DP for a rolling stock item, instant CTD.

And, yeah, I've noticed that the folder hierarchy is flexible until it isn't.

[Gumboots]

LengthPoint.3dp shouldn't present problems. I can give you a map for those if you need it.

[Just Crazy Jim]

Looking through the game's BTY files, I seem to have run into a conflicting bit of information in PJay's note on BTY files.

Where he gives:

Code: Select all

architect style
----------------
  1	: Clpbrd
  2	: Kyoto
  4	: Persian
  8	: SoWest
 16	: Tudor
 32	: Victorian
sums are possible (eg: 63 = for all styles)

When I look at the various civic buildings (e.g, department store, barracks, etc) at position 195-198, the value at position 195-198 is always 0, and this seems to infer that 0 as the architectural style means "no" or "all" styles, rather than 63.

Now, if I understand what I am seeing, I would want to use an exponent of two for my custom house/station architectural style. Following the pattern established by PopTop, the next architectural styles in the sequence would be 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, etc. At least, cursory logic indicates that to be true. Needs more testing and much CTDs to find out if it's true

[Just Crazy Jim]

Working in the direction of more 20th Century themes, I knocked out two models for a Suburban Commuter set, the large station I am undecided how to handle, since IRL that usually has a platform on both sides of the tracks.

[Gumboots]

Hadn't thought of it before, but offhand I can't see why you couldn't have a platform on both sides.

[Hawk]

If you make the platform wide enough you might even be able to run a track on both sides.

[Gumboots]

Yes, although it wouldn't be usable as a station on both sides.

[Hawk]

Good point.

[Just Crazy Jim]

There is probably some way to hack the code to make a station usable on both sides, but (however desirable it may be) that is far, far above my pay grade. I settled on a shape that is based on a station I saw on the outskirts of northside Chicago. Since I'm not entirely sure how the game will handle the model or if it's even possible to inject a new architectural style yet, I haven't added the fine details (e.g., vending machines, platform lights, benches).

Here is the large station version (unskinned)

[Gumboots]

Your main problem will probably be the footprint, which we haven't figured out how to change yet. IOW, you're likely to run into problems with seeded buildings overlapping part of the station. Apart from that it should be fine, at least if it hijacks an existing architectural style. I have no idea if you'll be able to inject extra styles.

[Just Crazy Jim]

I was going through the BTYs and IMBs editing like a madman, when it occured to me that I wasn't seeing a label for architectural style, so I scoped the RT3.lng file and saw this:

Code: Select all

;The next 6 are architecture styles
	2667 "Clapboard" <- architectural style 1 per PJay
	2668 "Kyoto" <- architectural style 2 per PJay
	2669 "Persian" <- architectural style 4 per PJay
	2670 "Southwest" <- architectural style 8 per PJay
	2671 "Tudor" <- architectural style 16 per PJay
	2672 "Victorian" <- architectural style 32 per PJay
	2673 "Atrocious" <--locomotive rating stuff starts here
	2674 "Extremely Poor"
	2675 "Very Poor"
	...

So the names for the architectural styles seems to be hard-coded to some degree. Looking from here, I'm not sure what string will be called for architectural style 64, 128, 256, etc. Or if there is even support for adding additional string support without hacking the EXE. So, I think I now understand what PJay meant by:

Code: Select all

sums are possible (eg: 63 = for all styles)

I figure that setting the houses of a new set to architectural style zero would be safe and probably add them to the mix of houses in the seeding for an eclectic mix, or using sums to "span" styles" might work, but that's just theory at this point. I have no idea how it will propagate to the building list in the editor. As far as stations, I think I'll have to keep moving forward to see how it works. It will be a little galling to have a custom architectural style identified as "Atrocious" in the UI, but it is what it is.

[Just Crazy Jim]

Well, mixed success. No Bong of Doom, but...

The items all list in the editor in alphabetical sequence, but with a "generic placeholder" preview. I suspected there might be a problem using a single PK4 in the PopTopExtraContent folder. I probably need to place the 2D stuff in the 2D folder to clear that up.

However, the important part, the stations, do not list in the choices in normal play mode, not even with the label "Atrocious". Selah. I'll move forward and leave it up to the individual player to decide if they want to step in and out of the editor to place stations.

[Just Crazy Jim]

Well, I completed the experiments and it's an editor only sort of thing. Nothing I tried made the additions work in a way that's desirable. A scenario -maker might use them, I guess, but it's a lot of work. Short of recompiling the EXE, I don't see how to make a new architectural style to work. It would be easier to make over-riding replacements for the existing styles.

Ah, well, it was worth the experimenting. I finished the Suburban Commuter stations at least. And made a Cannery and more citified Church, just for the heck of it.

[Gumboots]

Short of recompiling the EXE, I don't see how to make a new architectural style to work. It would be easier to make over-riding replacements for the existing styles.

That would be the easy way. The Kyoto and Persian styles are rarely used.

[RulerofRails]

It would be easier to make over-riding replacements for the existing styles.

It doesn't surprise me that there's no easy way for entirely new styles. But, you didn't provide enough information for me to have a good idea of what you tried.

When you said you can only see the "modern" stylized buildings in the editor, were they actually available in station styles (accessible with the back a forth arrows in the lower corners of the station preview picture) or only in the build list for the non-station buildings? To get any buildings of a different style to be seeded onto the map, I would assume it's necessary to get a new Architecture Style to show up in the selection list available in the Cities/Regions page of the editor.

The idea of a "Modern" Architecture Style is interesting, but the idea of the styles (at least from what I understood, might be wrong ) is so that you can use some different styles for variety within a map. The "Modern" idea seems that after a certain point in time, a scenario in the modern era would only use modern buildings. Would you ever want the "Modern" buildings to be in only certain regions of the map, to be used in association with the existing or other new styles?

You do realize that even with a fully operational extra style: "Modern", this will never be based on the year. What the map was designed with is what you get.

Personally, if you wanted/were crazy enough to make a modern architecture style (or early 19th century) I would just make it a mod with your model files intended to overwrite the original ones. As far as I can tell there is no way to get an existing building to change appearance so such a mod is only relevant for maps started/intended to be played during those time periods.

PS. A couple of maps use Kyoto and Persian styles extensively (for instance Japan Trembles, Great China 4 {TM}, The Baghdad Railway, Rhodes Unfinished {50 out of 67 cities}, etc.). Those maps might feel funny if the style was high-jacked, but for a mod anything is fair game.

[Gumboots]

If you were playing a map where you specifically wanted the hijacked styles, surely you'd just remove the PK4 for the mod. Anyone who can figure out the game's gui should be capable of figuring that out.

[Just Crazy Jim]

It would be easier to make over-riding replacements for the existing styles.

It doesn't surprise me that there's no easy way for entirely new styles. But, you didn't provide enough information for me to have a good idea of what you tried.

When you said you can only see the "modern" stylized buildings in the editor, were they actually available in station styles (accessible with the back a forth arrows in the lower corners of the station preview picture) or only in the build list for the non-station buildings? To get any buildings of a different style to be seeded onto the map, I would assume it's necessary to get a new Architecture Style to show up in the selection list available in the Cities/Regions page of the editor.

The added styles only appear in the long list of other buildings in the editor. (see pic)

The idea of a "Modern" Architecture Style is interesting, but the idea of the styles (at least from what I understood, might be wrong ) is so that you can use some different styles for variety within a map. The "Modern" idea seems that after a certain point in time, a scenario in the modern era would only use modern buildings. Would you ever want the "Modern" buildings to be in only certain regions of the map, to be used in association with the existing or other new styles?

Part of my drive to add new styles is based on the fact that the styles shipped with game reflect almost nothing of what I have seen in the photographic record. In the USA, the zenith for railway station construction was between 1880 and 1920, and though many of those stations would arguably be "Victorian" - they are most definitely not "Second Empire" Victorian. Most of the surviving stations in the USA are most definitely "Arts and Crafts" Victorian. 2nd in the list of frequency is a category of brick-built station that is vaguely Gothic Revival. In Britain, it was more Gothic Revival Victorian than anything else I saw. 3rd on the list is a vaguely Roman monumental style, like most of the architecture for public buildings in the USA tended to resemble during the period, vaguely Neo-Grec Victorian. In a few places in Europe I saw a vaguely Tudor style of station, mostly near and along the Alps, but then you have a wide variety of things that you could call "Tudor". A great many stations I saw in Africa and Asia were decidedly "Colonial", but you'd have to see them to understand that "Colonial" is very much not the American idea of "Colonial". In the USA, the "colonial" style (unless prefixed with a national adjective, e.g., "French Colonial" or "Spanish Colonial") generally means "vaguely resembling Georgian period architecture" (most usually based on Independence Hall in Philadelphia, but some are decidedly Queen Anne Victorian). I have seen maybe 5 examples that were Spanish Colonial (the game's South West style), but I have seen a dozen or more that were Federalist/Georgian era colonial. Then, I have not made it a point to extensively tour vast reaches of dry, hot, miserable places. I much prefer hot, humid, miserable places and cold, wet, miserable places. In Japan, I saw very few stations that were even vaguely resembling the "Kyoto" style. The old railway station I saw in Tokyo was most definitely a red brick Romanesque Revival/European Colonial thing. More than half I saw in Japan were concrete and steel modern things that could have been build at any point after 1950.

Anyway, since there are probably more houses built after 1945 in the world than all the time before that combined. I found it striking that the devs chose to have nothing really representative of the suburban sprawl of housing developments and strip malls and golf courses served by satellite railway stations. I guess this comes from the fact that the game really is focused on 1880-1920 and accepts as canon that "all the railroads died and went away after WW2", which may be true in the USA, but is less true in the rest of the world. I mean, try getting anywhere in India by ground without using a railroad....

You do realize that even with a fully operational extra style: "Modern", this will never be based on the year. What the map was designed with is what you get.

Personally, if you wanted/were crazy enough to make a modern architecture style (or early 19th century) I would just make it a mod with your model files intended to overwrite the original ones. As far as I can tell there is no way to get an existing building to change appearance so such a mod is only relevant for maps started/intended to be played during those time periods.

PS. A couple of maps use Kyoto and Persian styles extensively (for instance Japan Trembles, Great China 4 {TM}, The Baghdad Railway, Rhodes Unfinished {50 out of 67 cities}, etc.). Those maps might feel funny if the style was high-jacked, but for a mod anything is fair game.

Aye, I realized this at some point along my trajectory. In my experience, Changing the 3D model and reloading a GMP is the Tokyo Bullet Train to the Bong of Doom. That, plus the fact I could not devil out a way to make the new styles list outside the editor, took the air out of the tyres on the "injection project" and left me with vague uncertainty about the benefit of making knock-out replacements, since more than a few maps come with buildings already in place. I suppose changing the DXT textures would be harmless, as loose files, and would work to achieve some degree of "modernisation", but then I arrive at the place I started, dissatisfied with the default architectural style models.

I am thinking a clean install with all the default maps stripped out is where it will have to start. Where it goes from there, I can't quite see yet.

Aside: To date, my adventures in RT3 modding are not what you'd call "marked by great success". I do not know how the rest of you have sustained your enthusiasm. For me, I have no life to speak of, so I have hours to fill with some manner of activity. This is better than most I can think of.

[Gumboots]

In my experience, Changing the 3D model and reloading a GMP is the Tokyo Bullet Train to the Bong of Doom.

It will usually work as long as no names are changed. Changing the name of anything is instant Bong of Doom, since the game relies on the usual names to call assets.

So you should, IIRC, be able to swap .3dp and .dds files as much as you like, providing everything all the way down uses exactly the same naming as the default files. The only exception would be changing style names in RT3.lng, since that doesn't usually bork anything.