Latvia (beta)

[Gumboots]

I get the idea of the Livonian connection there, but if the territory includes both then the obvious option would be to only go to Kolka. Much cheaper. To make people go to Saarema you will need a specific Saarema goal, which I agree is a good idea.

50 pax is too much for this economy when you take other requirements into account. You'd end up just doing bait and switch on a pile of random trains. What I think would be more in keeping with the scenario is to just give a pax production and/or price bonus for connecting to Saarema.

[low_grade]

But what I'm wanting is another goal that I only start trying for at the end, maybe just pax to Saarema given the previous Kolka event, with a nice newspaper, and maybe even just 5 pax, but triggered by connection to Kolka?

[Gumboots]

Kolka is usually connected about halfway through the game. By the time you are out to Tukums it makes sense to do Kolka, because you want Talsi to get to Ventspils anyway and the Kolka bonus more than pays for the spur to Kolka, so it becomes a no-brainer. Although TBH I'm not that keen on the Kolka event because in that era it was very isolated and was never connected to the national railway. In fact, it still isn't. It's also not a useful connection in the game, I tend to regard it as burn track.

But say you only have a 5 pax requirement. What do you get for it? What is the incentive to do it? Surely not another haulage goal for Gold? Especially if it's so trivial. To me that would just feel a bit fake. I'll often connect to Saaremaa anyway just because I like doing it, and it can be fairly lucrative depending on what seeds there, but if you want an actual incentive for people to connect then what's it going to be?

[RulerofRails]

Low_grade, this map was made in 1.05, so pax at warehouse/port is a no-go. I think it's better to stay with 1.05 because this way the main Lumber and Meat goals can't be done with ship-at-a-loss. I know it's basically just preventing the honest though.

One way to stop bait-and-switch is an additional requirement of pax FROM, however due to the way that loads are counted as in that both TO and FROM conditions actually include hauls WITHIN that territory hauls in Saarema between Kuresaare and Orisaare will be counted. This complicates it just that little bit more.

I would tend towards optional. Passenger hauls can't really be forced, you must make a good design then wait a little while for the game to recognize that there is a new route and to create some traffic on that route. I would suggest a system that checks after maybe 3 years whether or not you have made the hauls and gives a reward based on that: for example +10% pax volume. If you failed, check again in another 3 years.

Gumboots already mentioned that Saarema often has some resources which after about 5 or so years are cheaply priced. Last game with a slow start I went there in 1926. Typically it's within a year or two of buying Poland's access.

BTW, I'm using wooden bridges for the crossing, like this.

Can also be done less elegantly closer to the edge of the map as I did on previous attempts. If it's designed to be reached late game it might make more sense to force a Suspension here? Probably could be done with careful sculpting of the terrain. Or use some fake river cells like Gumboots near Daugavpils (earlier betas).

While I'm at it, here's what I did for Riga this last time, station is on a port cell.

PS. Trivial: The status page is overflowing with one line: "All haulage is required for a Gold."

[Gumboots]

My inclination is to not add more haulage goals, particularly ones that feel artificial, and to treat Saaremaa as a simple connection bonus event.

As for rewards, apparently the locals are big on making their own beer, and the place is covered with timber. So there would be some scope for export industries there. Even if the place was made richer in primary industries, that could provide sufficient "bonus" to encourage connections.

But given the historical reliance on tourism I do think some bonus related to pax traffic makes sense, either in terms of numbers or prices.

Oh and I had already fixed the status page. Have some ideas for further improvements too. To reduce clutter, it could be made to drop the BRONZE heading and haulage count once the target is reached, and substitute one line that says "Bronze medal secured" or something similar.

[low_grade]

Anybody gone over the area in google maps? Side note: I just realized that google maps is no longer a flat projection!! Very cool zooming in and out now! But Latvia/Estonia are indeed quite flat, boggy even, though the bogs appear to have been drained and converted to farmland. Kolka to this day is a tiny town, no development anywhere near it. Saaremaa is an island! Which I hadn't guessed from this map. Nicely parceled farmland, looks a bit rolling though not hilly, and no major towns to this day.

Hmm... searching images of Kolka I mostly get driftwood, and a few vacationers on the beach, no buildings. Saaremaa on the other hand looks very nice to visit, all kinds of old buildings, vodka... maybe drop the Kolka event for a Saaremaa one?

[Gumboots]

Yes, Saaremaaa is an island. That's why you need a bridge to get there. Also, the name means "island".
It has been famous for its spas for well over a century, so it definitely fits as a tourist destination.

I had a thought about the pax thing. If pax production and price were increased 50% for connection to Saaremaa, that would not only provide good economic incentive but would also add more challenge to late game haulage, because with higher pax prices and numbers they will tend to beat the required haulage cargoes in auto consists. That may be a good way of adding extra interest.

And that's what I mean about Kolka. It really doesn't fit with a major rail hub. OTOH the Livonian cultural aspect of it is a thing in Latvia, so I can see why Latvians would want to bring it into the scenario.

Edit: I have been thinking that the placed port at Riga should be moved slightly west to near the river mouth, but still on the eastern side of the river. The reason is that I think it would give a better location when the second port seeds. That often sits right across the mouth of the river, which looks wrong and is sometimes hard to capture with a Riga station. If the placed port takes up the river mouth area, the second port should seed to the east of it.

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Had another idea too, not for this scenario (I don't think it fits) but just generally. Scenario authors often use restrictions to limit a player to one company. What if a scenario was scripted to require a range of dirty tricks for Gold? That would be something different, and could get very inventive.

[Gumboots]

After running a quick test, I strongly suspect that events for adjusting pax prices are broken. I just tried setting game-wide pax prices to +500% and letting a game run for several years. This should have resulted in prices ranging from $60k/load to over $500k/load. It didn't. Prices appeared to be firmly staying put in the usual range for this map. Looks like I have found another RT3 bug.

Pax production events definitely work. Pax price events do not seem to work. This may be something to do with pax prices being locked into the .exe, instead of being controlled from the .cty file like most cargoes*. If events for cargo prices reference the value in the .cty file, then obviously this would not work for pax.

Haven't yet checked for mail and troops, but as they are express cargoes the same may apply to them.

*I tested this thoroughly and confirmed it some time back, when doing the original testing for the pax appeal scale.
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I'm starting to think we really need a catalogue of known RT3 bugs. Have an OP that lists them all as they are confirmed, so they can all be found in one easy reference.

[low_grade]

A workaround would be to set all cargo prices and costs down, then pax would be relatively higher!

[Gumboots]

Not quite the desired effect.

Anyway, it looks like setting pax production to +100% would be about right. It seems to allow lucrative express traffic without it taking over the entire map. It would also automatically give higher hotel profits, and probably restaurant and tavern profits as well.

I only ran the test for a few years, so if pax tends to take over the map towards the end of the scenario then the production could be gradually scaled back to suit.

[RulerofRails]

I'm starting to think we really need a catalogue of known RT3 bugs. Have an OP that lists them all as they are confirmed, so they can all be found in one easy reference.

Good idea.

In regards to the passenger price events. I always knew it doesn't work that you see an instant increase in price, but because price and production events are commonly used in tandem it's quite likely that we have seen some effect and then assumed everything is working correctly while the production one was doing the work (more production may seem to raise prices in a consistent capacity network because there is more demand for travel). Oilcan did a lot of testing on passengers and he seemed to think that they worked. However, I did some quick, dirty testing now that also seems to indicate that this isn't working. Tested on a saved game, then tried a start of game event in a more controlled environment but this was also compromised because I set density to 0% and buildings were disappearing. Not conclusive enough for me to say definitely not.

In terms of the idea to raise pax production, it's good but +100% is a lot if a player goes there early game. I would consider maybe a temporary 100%, then scale back to something lower (20%?). This way, if it is the case that the player goes there late game it will give him that final push he needs to reach CBV, or he could have taken it all sooner. . .

[Gumboots]

Ok, haven't had time to play it much yet, but here's a v21 of the map. I've made the following changes.

1/ Corrected some dodgey text in briefings, etc (let me know if you find more) and cleared some unnecessary conditions from historical events.

2/ Added a connection event for the two cities on Saaremaa. You get a cash bonus of $600,000 for connecting them to Riga, and a map-wide 100% increase in pax production, and a map-wide 100% increase in tavern revenue. The latter is to bring taverns more into line with restaurant revenue. Saaremaa is famous for brewing its own beer, so I thought we should have a few taverns. During testing I found that hotels, restaurants and taverns were lucrative in the larger and better connected cities, but still minimal in out-of-the-way cities.

3/ There is also an all-cargo production boost of 25% for a new Saaremaa territory (invisible border, maps to Estonia) once the two Saaremaa cities are connected to Riga. Hotels, restaurants and taverns on Saaremaa get an additional 100% revenue boost. They make almost nothing without it, even with the increased pax production across the map, and since Saaremaa has resorts I thought it should have moderate returns on hotels, restaurants and taverns. These tweaks should make the island a bit more lucrative without being over the top.

4/ Have also slightly increased the seeding rates for primary industries on Saaremaa (livestock, wool, etc).

5/ There is an invisible no access territory beneath the Gulf of Riga, to prevent daft suspension bridges all over the place.

6/ Membership of the League of Nations, and the introduction of the Latvian currency, now give slight economy benefits for one year (+1 credit rating, and -1% prime rate, respectively).

7/ The 1934 coup now gives a moderate economic deficit for one year (-5% stock prices, -1 economy level, +2% prime rate).

8/ Trade treaties with Estonia and Poland now give 20% reduction in access costs. As a balance, cash bonuses for Rail Baltica and Pjarnu connection have been reduced slightly.

9/ The placed port at Riga is now next to the river mouth, on the eastern side. This gives better placement of the second port, if that seeds.

10/ I have placed the Liepaja port instead of relying on it seeding (Ventspils port still relies on seeding). I was finding that if Liepaja port didn't seed the game was still winnable, but the haulages to Liepaja became too forced and artificial for my liking. I don't like having to haul Fertilizer and Cheese back across the width of the map to keep things moving to Liepaja. Since the port is now placed, the port slider for Liepaja has been set to zero.

11/ Sliders for Barracks and Military Depots have been boosted a bit for the cities which already had them. This should add a bit more interest, without screwing anything.

12/ The Silver medal bug mentioned earlier in the thread has been fixed.

13/ I also tweaked the status page to be less cluttered and more informative. Once you meet the Bronze and Silver haulage targets, the Bronze and Silver headings and haulage counts are replaced with lines of text that say "Bronze/Silver medal secured".

Edit:

14/ Added a +1 steam reliability to the Saremaa event, to allow running the Class 500 with full express consists and no caboose.

15/ Corrected a few events to use year elapsed instead of absolute year, to allow scenario to play properly in any timeframe.

Latvia v019 removed. Latvia v020 added. Hopefully this one should be cool.

Edit again: Nope, that one had a couple of event errors. I have made a v021.

Zip attached. Again.

[Gumboots]

Just saw this. You posted while I was writing the other one.

Oilcan did a lot of testing on passengers and he seemed to think that they worked. However, I did some quick, dirty testing now that also seems to indicate that this isn't working.

I'm convinced pax price doesn't work. I also suspect the same will apply to mail and troops, since IIRC they also have their price locked into the .exe and do not use the .cty value.

In terms of the idea to raise pax production, it's good but +100% is a lot if a player goes there early game. I would consider maybe a temporary 100%, then scale back to something lower (20%?). This way, if it is the case that the player goes there late game it will give him that final push he needs to reach CBV, or he could have taken it all sooner...

Yes it could be a lot if you went there early, but I'm not sure people will go there early anyway. You have to buy access to Estonia first, and then you have to get over to Saaremaa. The haulages for Riga, Liepaja and Ventspils tend to be the majority of the game and take priority. I see the Saaremaa thing as being more of a bit of added interest once you have your main haulages set up and running.

It's not a pax-heavy map to start with, and from testing over 8 years (from a 1932 save I edited to game end in 1940) the amount of pax kicking around seemed useful but not insane. Still, if it looks like becoming a problem it's easy enough to tweak. There is already a graded reduction in production of some key cargoes late in the game. It would be easy to add a graded reduction in pax to that.

[Gumboots]

I just had another look at the file, and realised I'd set up the Saarema event with most bits, but had forgotten to include the company cash bonus. First zip has been removed, and a new file has been attached to the post just up the page.

While doing that fix, I decided to add a pax reduction late in the game. This uses the same events that reduce logs and other cargoes by 3% every two years, starting in 1930, except that in the case of pax I went with a 5% reduction every two years. This means that if you don't connect to Saaremaa, pax will be down to 75% in 1938. If you do connect to Saaremaa, pax will be at 175% in 1938. This, along with the other bonuses, should provide an added incentive to connect.

Also, on reflection, I put the cash bonus back to $600,000 instead of $1 million. Given what else you will get out of Saaremaa, I thought $600k made more sense. Especially if you get cunning with bridges...

Edit: Had another thought. Terrible habit. I really should stop doing that. Anywayz, since there is now a pax thang happening in this scenario, assuming you connect to Saarema, that leads to the question of express locomotives. The scenario currently has the S3, P8 and Class 500, all of which are sort of reasonable fits for Latvia in that period. However, they all only have Acceptable pax appeal, and only the first two are reliable enough to haul full express consists without a caboose. The Class 500 will last a few years without a caboose, but rapidly turns to crap.

So, the Saaremaa connection could also make the Class 01 available. More expensive to buy and run than the others, but has Looks Sharp pax appeal and Above Average acceleration, as well as a higher top speed on flat terrain, and the Good reliability rating will mean no need for a caboose with express consists. AFAICT from spreadsheets it should cost around $20k/year more to run than the Class 500, and it costs around 50% more to buy, but it should easily have 20% or greater increase in earning capacity for express. Might be fun to throw it in, just for added spice.

[low_grade]

Class A1?

Arg, 1.05, dummy. Class 01 is good, at the right time. Zephyr might be more fun for flavor, though you'd want a caboose, as a reward for Saaremaa connection, with a newspaper in 1932 maybe, to add flash to the tourism pitch. Atlantic?

Just got a terrible seed! Only one logging camp west of Riga...

[Gumboots]

Zephyr? What is this Zephyr you speak of? Does it go choof choof choof? Latvia in this period used steam.

Anyway, I don't have the Zephyr or any other diesel installed on my box, so I aint coding that.

The Atlantic is too unreliable to run without a caboose. It and the Pacific are pigs of things. Class A1 would be ok. It's a CtC loco, even though 1.06 changed its stats. The other option would be to just boost reliability for the Class 500, but then that has to be done for all three steamers. Mind you, I don't think anyone would complain if they all got a reliability boost.

Class 500 is Average by default. Boosting it to Good would let it haul full express consists reliably for ages without a caboose. Above Average would give it a run of about 7 years without a caboose, hauling 7x default C era express + default C era dining car. That's probably fine, given that most people won't get to Saaremaa before 1930 and the game only runs until the end of 1939. So a one level reliability boost for all steamers should sort it.

Out of the Class 01, Class A1, Class 500 and Atlantic: the Class 500 is the cheapest to run, by about 20% compared to the others (they're all much the same). It has a higher top speed than the Atlantic, even though it has the lowest acceleration rating of the four.

That would put the S3 on Very Good and the P8 on Outstanding, which probably isn't such a bad thing post-1930. It should give the older locos in your roster a bit more breathing space, although obviously you'd still be taking a fuel consumption and maintenance cost penalty on older ones.

[RulerofRails]

Just got a terrible seed! Only one logging camp west of Riga...

Did you save it/use it? How many in total on the map?
BTW, happy birthday!

I am taking a stab at the latest version. When I got into the map, a little looking around at the price map led me to remember a few things. I had successful no industry games when starting in the west of the map. Required were: no Liepaja port, but one in Ventspils and either Dairy, or working Lumber Mill or Meat Packer west of the Venta River. A sort of niche, extra difficult strategy. Bear in mind the goals changed since, so that may or may not make it more difficult.

Anyway, that was a fun distraction, but the real reason I mention it at all is because having a Liepaja port lets Iron and Coal demand out onto the water from the Steel Mill there. This motivates Riga's supply of minerals to march round the coast. Anyone say: Fishing at Kolka? The location of Kolka surrounded by water on two sides means high chance of fishing unless you run custom consists. I also completed a play in the west when I exploited this, but I think it's bad to have as a design choice. Possibly could use a warehouse for critical demands and then leave the port to seed and reward with Chemicals if it does. By the time the port seeds, on average a rail network should be in place to prevent the Kolka fishing experiment (port will probably leave a phantom demand though). Maybe I thought about it too much, since I'm playing without building/buying industry. When building industry, would probably want to get production running near Riga (if the Daugavpils one didn't seed), so impact is lower.

Also didn't realize that the start date is flexible, the map can be started up to 2000. I don't think anybody tested how it played much later?

[low_grade]

I did save it. 13 logging camps on the map.

Oh, and yes, I am 43 today, though I always think the congrats should go to the mom, lol!

[Gumboots]

Yes the Liepaja port does get lumps of iron and coal enthused about swimming in the Baltic, even in winter, but I think for most seeds having the port is a good thing. It is one of Latvia's major ports. I rarely use Kolka. Usually I treat it as burn track for the connection bonus, although it does depend on what seeds there. Why would fishing coal and iron out of the water at Kolka be a problem anyway, if it happened?

I'm not sure I've ever seen a Meat Packing Plant or Dairy Processor west of the Venta. And I often buy and run the Liepaja steel mill by shipping coal and iron from Riga if the Daugavpils mill doesn't seed. That's one of my favourite options. I can't remember when I last built a steel mill in Riga. The Liepaja one works very well.

And no, I haven't played the scenario in the later timeframes. TBH some of the events should be tweaked if we're going to get pedantic about that. A few of them would have to be changed to use game year instead of an absolute value.

Oh and happy birthday, youngster. I remember when I was 43.

[Gumboots]

Ok peeps, I ditched v019 and made a v020. This one has the events corrected to work in any timeframe (didn't need much) and a +1 steam reliability added to the Saaremaa event, to enable running the Class 500 as an express loco without caboose.

Zip is in the other post with the blurb.