NSW - North, south & west

Discussion about reviews and strategies for user created scenarios made for RT3 version 1.05 and earlier.
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Gumboots
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NSW - North, south & west Unread post

More tyre kicking. This time related to a possible "Across the Blue Mountains" update. It's still NSWGR ideas, so might as well go in this thread to save hijacking the existing scenario's thread too badly.

Taking the actual start year of 1855 and running for the standard 25 RT3 years until the end of 1879, same as the existing scenario, I checked out what had been laid in the way of track up to that point. It looks like the following shot. The pale blue rectangle outline is the near-as-I-can-get-them limits of the existing 448x448 map, which to be strictly correct for proportions should be 448x512 at the same east-west scale.

The pale green outline is the required limits if you wanted to fit the actual NSWGR network on a map, and at the same east-west scale would be 704x576. You could save some off the width by chopping the east coast in the northern corner, and get it down to 576x576 if necessary, but 704x576 is still fairly compact anyway.

Network_to_1879.jpg

There's not much track for an RT3 game, even though it was pretty good going in real life at the time. One noteworthy point is that Queanbeyan wasn't connected, whereas Yass was, and Yass is within the limits of the existing 448x448 map so I'm not sure why it was left out. Anyway, keeping the same map limits but looking at what track had been laid up to 1884 (ie. another 5 years) you get this, with the yellow track being the new bits:

Network_to_1884.jpg

Which brings up another point: the town of Kandos didn't even exist in the 19th century, so I'm not sure why it was included in an 1879 end year map. By 1884 the southern main line had reached the Victorian border (basically, bottom left corner of the screenshots) but including that would require an even larger map. The northern line had reached Glen Innes too, meaning even bigger again if you wanted that included. When making the existing ATBM map he seems to have focused on the idea of the Blue Mountains (directly west of Sydney) and not worried about the actual extent of the network at the time. Which is fair enough, but I'm still wondering why he went for Queanbeyan instead of Yass. **!!!**

Anyway, moving right along and taking another five year interval, more track was laid in the period from 1884 to 1889. That looks like this, with the orange stuff being the latest:

Network_to_1889.jpg

This is when the south coast line and the Sydney-Newcastle connection were built in real life. But there's another oddity, in that the south coast line only goes to Nowra. It has never extended as far south as Bateman's Bay, and didn't even reach Nowra by 1889, so beats me why Bateman's Bay is a required connection in the existing map. The map could have been cut just north of Canberra and been more realistic (at the time Canberra didn't exist either). Anyway, for the last decade of the 19th century there are the following bits in red. Anything more extensive than this was built in the 20th century.

Network_to_1894.jpg

The differences are that a start was made on the line out to Broken Hill (at the middle of the western edge) and the final short section of the south coast line, from Kiama down to Nowra, was completed.
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Re: Blue Mountains revamp Unread post

Just for a trial run I made a map the same size as the original (448x448) but with the latitude and longitude corrected to give the same north-south and east-west mileages. This involved trimming off the southern section of the original, since there's no (real life) need to build rail south of Nowra. The result is that east-west scale is the same as the original but north-south scale is about 14% greater, but both scales match on this map. IOW, 50 miles in any direction will be the same number of map pixels. !*th_up*!

I also moved the map area west to bring in a few extra towns that were relevant to the rail network in this timeframe, so there's a bit less ocean to the east and a bit more land area. It was exported with the 5 metre scale DBF's, and those give topography that is pretty good for a first stab at it. It would obviously need some route smoothing, but not much. It's not much like the original map, but is a lot like what the region looks like in real life.

Having the actual topography makes it clear why the railways ran where they did. In most cases it was impossible for them to go anywhere else. The Illawarra escarpment is a total mongrel of a thing, and really demonstrates why getting to Wollongong by rail was such a difficult job. Ditto the section north from Sydney to Gosford (another mongrel in real life) and of course the Blue Mountains themselves. It's all playable, but some parts of it aren't going to be easy or cheap.

Screenshot and zip attached. Note that this is just a test map. It has cities, but no sizing of them for population and no economy details done.

Edit: Redundant zip removed.
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Re: Cape, Standard & Irish (scenario idea tyre kicking) Unread post

Well, I spent a moment of my spare time to see what this feels like. IMO, it's rough at low level. The only thing that made it possible for me to imagine an ideal maxium grade of 8% (some places it's impossible) was that sometimes you can follow a spine of vertices of similar heights. I would imagine this is a smaller ridge in real life? What I can imagine the railroad normally doing in real life: going from one valley to another isn't IMO possible like this because we can't imitate to scale the curves possible in real life.

But I'm going to say that the price map doesn't transmit price through too much uneveness. If you setup the map for that it will be fine, but I wont expect it to play "normally" with a basic setup. Look how sharp the transitions into red price are:
Harsh red squares.jpg

This is what my routes look like:
The climb.jpg
Gosford.jpg
Wollongong.jpg
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Re: Blue Mountains revamp Unread post

Like I said, it needs some route smoothing, but not much. The northern, southern and western areas are fine as is, or with very little change. The three problem areas are the Hawkesbury (between Sydney and Gosford), the Blue Mountains, and the Illawarra. Taking them in order:

The Hawkesbury is a jumble at this scale, and there's probably not a lot that can be done about it. In real life the area crossed by the railway is surrounded by 600 foot high sheer cliffs at the river. The railway runs down one of the few shallower slopes, then across the river, then follows Mullet Creek (a tributary) north. But, there are tunnels. Quite a few of them, north and south of the river, because they were the only way you could get through. At this scale those don't really fit, so you'd probably have to do some route smoothing over the top of the hills and just big bridge the worst of it.

The Blue Mountains are really represented quite well by this test map. They are that bad for rail. And yes, they are a big break in the economy of the period. That's why they wanted to figure out some way to cross them. :lol:

The canyon just to the south of Katoomba really is like that, and the railway does not run up it at all. It simply can't. It more or less follows the route you took. One difference is that there are a succession of tunnels between Katoomba and Lithgow, but again those don't really fit at this scale so you'd have to smooth the route to make it workable. The climb up to Katoomba would be workable with minor route smoothing too.

My main concern when checking this out was the areas available for Katoomba and Lithgow. I have been thinking that if you really wanted to go ahead with this revamp it may be better to scale the map out to 512x512, or possibly even 576x576. At the current scale those two townships are larger than the available area, although that would be less of a problem if they were sized for relative population rather than just being RT3's default city size. I need to test that. Katoomba was quite tiny in this timeframe and Lithgow wasn't very big either, so they might work at this scale. You'd also need to pick industries carefully to prevent weird things happening, but that's not much of a problem.

With the Illawarra escarpment, I was thinking it would be necessary to have a no-access territory along part of it. Without that you can capture Wollongong and Port Kembla with a large station on top of the ridge, so no need to go mountain goating at all. If the eastern face of the escarpment was given very minor smoothing (and by that I mean the eastern face, not the edge of the ridge) it would be possible to mountain goat up the face to the top at reasonable grades, or you could simply bite the bullet and put in a longish tunnel. Either would do a good job of representing the actual situation in the area. The line does have tunnels and it does have quite severe grades in parts.



Re tweaking the existing map: the existing map's terrain is somewhat borked (lumpy rivers, terrain doesn't match real life so won't match satellite shots, etc) and "fixing things" could end up being quite a mission if you got into it. I could try a simple "add sat shot and forget about it" and see how it looks, but my gut is telling me it's going to be pretty rough.

The good news is that having the ports produce steel in exchange for coal seems to work well, with a basic 1:1 conversion and maximum production set to 3. It gives a reasonable market for coal, adequate but not excessive steel supply, and the ports are happy so tend to upgrade over time.

The overall economy is unrealistic to some extent, which naturally bugs me to some extent :lol: but it's well-balanced in terms of overall playability. I'm dubious about the value of some of the events. The "reduced fuel cost" is an obvious flaw, but the chance to reduce credit rating is also hardly worth having as it comes too late in the game.

That event would be better some years earlier, and possibly only for lower difficulty levels. By the time I see the notice for that event I'm always thinking of paying off my bonds just for the heck of it. Past a certain point there's no need to hold bonds anyway, since CBV is not part of the goals and cash flow is already adequate for laying the available track.

The other events are of minor interest if you happen to feel like chasing them, but usually there's too much else going on. They're the sort of thing you might do one time just for something different, so probably worth having just for that.

BTW, played the slightly tweaked original again last night, and knocked it off in March 1875. Earliest I've ever clocked it. The big difference was that I went for a rail start, and only acquired industry gradually. This made keeping up with the overall haulage quota easier for longer, so bigger rail bonuses, so more railway running, etc.
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Re: Cape, Standard & Irish (scenario idea tyre kicking) Unread post

Took a little look in the editor. I think this event will cause buggy behavior (in current map):
Blank bonus
This event is active but does nothing. It will block other bonuses for 3 years when triggered. It can also fire more than once.

Maybe it's too much info for the scale, anyway as I said I wasn't that impressed when seeing it for the first time. For sure, it's a nightmare to think about running a railway through those areas. But with limited tracks and a follow-the-historic route stipulation I can see it being workable even if not attractive visually to my eye.

Anyway, what I remembered about SEEDED ports stands-true (we have Milo to thank for that info, don't have time to find the link). You can do a special supply of any cargo you want by setting a port to supply it. Then pick an inland town and set the port to 1+% chance (doesn't matter the actual percentage, the point is that it's impossible for the port to appear without sea/ocean cells nearby).

Reserve cells are generally a decent way to control where buildings appear. JSS was pretty liberal with them in SCBC. Also, to have a no-access territory you will end up with a visible border (as SCBC used to have the water hiding). With a hidden territory, you could check for connection to it. Then get the player in some trouble or whatever. Maybe loading time is forever since everything has to be pulled up the cliff with winches?
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Re: Blue Mountains revamp Unread post

I saw the blank bonus event but didn't pay much attention to it. I assumed it was a dummy that was left over from testing. I'll check it out in more detail. !*th_up*!

Edit: Took a look at it. I'd say it's working as intended. He obviously wanted to randomise the bonus events, and the blank bonus appears to be just extra randomisation, giving an extra three year gap even if one of the other bonus events hasn't already reset GV4 for three years. The whole lot work well in practice (apart from the caveats about fuel cost events being broken, and the possibly too late credit rating adjustment).

For the no access territory I could just call it a national park. Or have a sign saying "Keep out. Here be drop bears". Neither are strictly true to life, but what the heck.

(Drop bears are mythical killer koalas, that drop out of trees and rip your head off with their claws. Great fun for winding up gullible tourists.)

Edit again: It just occurred to me that there's a very simple solution for the mountain goating thing. The scenario already tracks wool deliveries to a Ports territory that includes Newcastle, Sydney and The Gong (or Woggalong if you like, which is its other nickname). So all it needs is to have Wollongong split out to its own special territory, and have a medal requirement for Comp. stns. connect Terr.(Wollongong) to City(Sydney). Or you could have a loads, or revenue, requirement to the Woggalong territory. Any of those three options will take care of it. !*th_up*!

You could be right about too much info for the scale. The unsmoothed version is exceptionally jagged, much more so than real life. Australia is a very old continent and consequently very weathered, so tends not to do jagged so much. But for overall feel of "Oh @&#^@ I have to build a railway through that" it gets the general idea across. By 19th century colonial standards it really was a nightmare, not so much for pointy peaks but just for grades on feasible routes.

Anyway I was thinking about it so imported another version, with the same height export tables (5 metre scale) and the same default value=1 height modifiers, but with the default RT3 smoothing value of 1 this time instead of the 0 used before. I was worried it would "blobbify" things too much but actually it's not bad. I do think it could probably do with an overall height increase of 10 or 20%, as at the moment I think the gnarly sections are a bit too much of a no-brainer, but in general it works pretty well.

I threw all the cities on it, with no industries in most of them but with the correct relative sizes, and laid track approximating the actual network of the period. This was a quick and easy process, so I'd say it's definitely playable in this form. There's a zipped sandbox attached if you're curious. No locos purchased, so compatible with any installation.

The other possibility, which is quite easy in the scheme of things, is to import with 0 smoothing and then just run a smoothing brush over it where advisable. That's less of a big blunt instrument than the default walloper, but is still a relatively quick and easy process.

Edit: Redundant zip removed.
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Re: Blue Mountains revamp Unread post

After giving it some more thought I'm going to tweak the map proportions. I like the idea of keeping to the same 448 height as the original. This will keep land area and distances in map pixels much the same, so the current economy should transfer over without problems. It's basically a well-scripted map that has good playability and good replay value, so it makes sense to take advantage of these good points. I'm keen to add a bit more historical accuracy (ie: Yass instead of Queanbeyan) but don't want to completely trash the existing scenario.

However, there's still room for bringing the lower edge further north (ie: closer to Nowra). If I adjust the lower edge further north this will reduce the latitude range, so will increase the pixels-per-mile scale of the map. The difference isn't huge, around 8-10% depending on how far I push it, but the pixel density is the square of the linear dimension so that means 17-21% increase in resolution of topography. That will help the detailing around some of the critical areas without screwing anything, and ties in with something the original map's author said in his readme file:
Geographical note: I’ve made the map as accurate as I can, but I started with a heightmap from the Mapbuilder which is probably not detailed enough at this scale. Most of it looks right, but I had real trouble resolving the area around Springwood, Katoomba and Lithgow and ended up shifting these slightly to make the climbs more real. If anyone who knows this area (which I don’t) is offended by its inaccuracy, I’m happy take submissions!
So we can call this revamp idea "a submission which he would have been happy to take". :-)

The only catch with adjusting the scale in this way is that it would cut the eastern limit a bit too close to Newcastle for comfort. The possible ways around that are a/ ditch some of the western cities, which I'd prefer not to do since they will be good for the story line, or b/ make the map a tad wider to give a bit more breathing room at the coast. I like the second option, and think bringing it out to 512 x 448 would be the best all-round compromise. That's still compact and "spinnable" on screen, and near enough to the original land area that it won't require a complete re-scripting from scratch. !*th_up*!



On a related note: playing the original map with only Baldwins available for early freight reminded me of something. The Baldwin is too fast. A 0-6-0 with large and inclined outside cylinders would be wildly unstable at 40 mph. In real life it is unlikely to have ever exceeded 25 mph. The NSWGR A93 0-6-0 class, which had inside cylinders and a longer wheelbase, was regarded as unsafe over 25 mph. From what I can gather 25 mph also seems to have been the speed limit for the DX Goods.

I think the Baldwin can be kept useful if the nominal top speed is reduced to 30 mph, but free weight and pulling power are increased to keep the default performance up grades. A quick play with the spreadsheet last night indicates this will be easy to do. It's possible a one level increase in acceleration could be required too, but I'll know more after testing. This will also be a good test case for setting DX Goods stats, since it's effectively the UK equivalent for RT3 purposes.
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Re: Cape, Standard & Irish (scenario idea tyre kicking) Unread post

Gumboots wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:54 am I saw the blank bonus event but didn't pay much attention to it. I assumed it was a dummy that was left over from testing. I'll check it out in more detail. !*th_up*!

Edit: Took a look at it. I'd say it's working as intended. He obviously wanted to randomise the bonus events, and the blank bonus appears to be just extra randomisation, giving an extra three year gap even if one of the other bonus events hasn't already reset GV4 for three years. The whole lot work well in practice (apart from the caveats about fuel cost events being broken, and the possibly too late credit rating adjustment).
It's possible that it was intentional. But, why put it in the middle of the others? That will favor those above it, and make the lower ones a fair bit less likely to appear. The other thing which has me less than convinced is that this "nothing happening" period has the same duration (3 years) as the actual bonuses. Surely using something different like 2 years would be better randomization? Anyway, if I were tweaking I would at least arrange it so that this "nothing happening" event can't fire twice in a row. For example, *free-up GV4=1 which is currently used for the Alcohol to Katoomba bonus (use anything else not already used there). Then use a permanent effect to set GV4=1 before the temporary one that sets GV4=10. The other bonuses would then all check GV4<2 (instead of GV4=0). And have a new effect added to set GV4=0 BEFORE the temporary set.

In regards to the Coal event. As a replacement for the broken fuel adjustment, you can fudge by reducing maintenance costs a bit. If you do it by territory the player wont "see it" in the read-outs, but the main benefit of the by-territory application is that it wont mess up any of the various engine cost displays. (I used that trick in SCBC.) Alternatively, power could increase too. If you are getting cheaper Coal but spending the same amount, wouldn't that give you more power?

I tried the sandbox. I can't tell how the economy will work directly in sandbox mode. But obviously being smoother means the overland transports will be more normal. I would agree with you that maybe it's smoothed a bit more than needed, but obviously it's not so much of a headache to look at the terrain now.

I did think a bit: If there is a fixed path based on history, it's interesting how to put practical difficulty there. The general bugginess of track laying especially when achieveing super tight radius turns, bridges, tunnels, and the fill under the track can often give "outs," letting the player avoid rather than confront many of the obstacles. And therefore I believe there is some setup work to do before such a challenge would be classed "defined." Unless, you force a tight route like SCBC does in the beginning. The other thing is that it's harder to balance difficulty of this practical kind for less experienced players, they wont know all the tricks.

Funny thing, I have a 30mph tune that seems to be attirbuted to you in my spreadsheet. I don't remember the exact story, and it's possible that the text was there by mistake. But I also seem to vaguely remember talking about it way back in PMs. Idk if I'm happy with the running cost on it. I see also in my sheet a high-weight experiment for the Mogul (IIRC this was conceptual, I didn't run it in test games), which goes along with my thinking that the running cost for these engines is so low compared to potential profit that they can just be spammed and long-distance, low-value hauls made with little economic consequence.

Baldwin@30.jpg

*Edit: I realized there was a flaw in my logic, I blame tiredness. It's corrected now.
Last edited by RulerofRails on Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Blue Mountains revamp Unread post

RulerofRails wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:05 amIt's possible that it was intentional. But, why put it in the middle of the others? That will favor those above it, and make the lower ones a fair bit less likely to appear. The other thing which has me less than convinced is that this "nothing happening" period has the same duration (3 years) as the actual bonuses. Surely using something different like 2 years would be better randomization?
You could be right. It is a bit funny having it in the middle, but without being able to talk to the bloke it's hard to be sure. Can be tweaked easily enough anyway.
Alternatively, power could increase too. If you are getting cheaper Coal but spending the same amount, wouldn't that give you more power?
Not necessarily. I can think of a range of reasons why it might not. Although you could spin the story so that you would get higher grade coal for the same price, and therefore get a slight power boost. In real life NSWGR used a range of coal types, with the best stuff meant to be reserved for the express locos and cheaper stuff being used out west where there were no grades.

I say "meant to be reserved" because sometimes crews hauling freight, who were given crappy coal, would throw one shovelful in the firebox and one off the side of the train, timing it so they just happened to run out of coal when they arrived at a coaling station for the express choofs. Then, oh dear, they'd just have to fill up with good stuff to keep the freight rolling. Real bummer, that. :lol:

Yes, this really did happen sometimes, although they would be in serious trouble if they got caught doing it. Amazing what you find out by reading old crews' memoirs though. There was even a grade of coal nicknamed "dynamite", because chunks of it used to explode in the firebox. Not big enough explosions to do any damage. Just a bit of a fireworks show for the crew.

The only catch with increased power, which in RT3 means pulling power tweaks, is that it tends to play havoc with carefully chosen custom loco stats. I might be more inclined to give a bit of a range increase instead.
I tried the sandbox. I can't tell how the economy will work directly in sandbox mode. But obviously being smoother means the overland transports will be more normal. I would agree with you that maybe it's smoothed a bit more than needed, but obviously it's not so much of a headache to look at the terrain now.

TBH I'm thinking that if the idea is to keep this as a low stress and fairly simple revamp, I might just go with the default smoothing and not worry too much. The main problem with default smoothing is things like river valleys. It tends to "smooth" them into a series of lumps down the river course, so you have to trade off fixing that against not having to fix other things, but this map should be pretty easy for rivers.

I did make another map with some changes I was thinking of: trimmed latitude range, height kept at 448, width extended to 512 and the map area shifted east slightly, smoothing on the default 1.0, and height modifier set to 1.0, but exported with 4 metre scale on the DBF tables. This seems to be a very good one. The climb to Katoomba is gnarly without being ridiculous. A few little touch ups here and there and it'll be good for a max of 6% if laid carefully, but with a fair amount of 6%. Lithgow makes more sense with these changes too, although access to it is easier than in real life. The Illawarra escarpment also works quite well. You can get up the face with nothing over 6% if you take a bit of care, although most people wouldn't get it that good. Or, if you don't mind spending the bucks, you can easily bore a 3% tunnel of reasonable length.
I did think a bit: If there is a fixed path based on history, it's interesting how to put practical difficulty there.
I wasn't thinking of getting carried away with this. The original is fairly loose on history. I was going to make it a bit more historical, but still keep the feel of the original. If you want to lay a line which was never laid IRL you can just go ahead and do it, or you can try play strictly historical lines if you want to.

I don't know where you got the Baldwin tune from. Possibly was one of mine, but if so I had forgotten about it. I'd be fine with increasing running costs a bit too.
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Re: Blue Mountains revamp Unread post

Had some more thoughts while I was asleep (amazing how often this happens).

Importing a heightmap without smoothing means you need to apply a smoothing brush over large areas. Importing with smoothing usually means your river valleys (and possibly some other features) are a mess, and need to be re-cut from scratch. Since rivers are a nuisance to cut in, the sensible way to approach it would be to import two identical heightmaps: one with default smoothing and one without. If you know what rivers you are going to want on the map, and where they run, it should be fairly easy to compare the two imported maps and decide which one is going to be easiest to turn into a finished product.
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Re: Blue Mountains revamp Unread post

Lol. Umm, I just figured out that MicroDEM has some extra useful bits I hadn't used before. There's no need to try and do terrain painting for elevation manually. MicroDEM has an "Automatic chloropath palette" option under Modify > Elevation (the same window you use to select your DBF export tables). This gives a wide range of additional palettes for terrain, and the basic "Terrain 25 steps" is near perfect for RT3 purposes.

MicroDEM_auto_chloropath.jpg

The automatically gives an extremely good guide for cutting in rivers where you need them. If the map shows the same colour, that area is all in the same elevation range according to the actual DEM. It won't necessarily all be in the same elevation range when imported into RT3 though, because the default smoothing algorithm plays havoc with valleys sometimes. If you have a common situation where two side valleys for tributaries come into the main river valley, the smoothing algorithm will pull the main valley floor up as it tries to smooth the transition between the ridges on each side.

Valley_smoothing_problem.jpg

In that shot the lower parts of the main valley are roughly right for elevation, and it needs to be manually cut through at that height between the side ridges. Welcome to the traditional RT3 "Why haz my riverz got lumps in them?". ::!**!

For comparison here's the same valley from the same heightmap, with the only difference being that no smoothing was applied when importing into RT3 editor.

Same_valley_no_smoothing.jpg

The terrain is far more jagged but the heights through the valley, and for that matter over the peaks, are far more accurate when compared with the terrain elevation overlay. It just occurred to me that if you are using a smoothed import it could be worthwhile having an unsmoothed version for setting the lake tool for cutting valleys. You could load the unsmoothed version, set and write down a range of useful lake tool heights, then load the smoothed version and use the written heights as a guide for your terraforming. I can see this reducing the workload quite considerably. !*th_up*!

At least the problem will be easier to fix with a good visual guide to the correct elevation ranges. Use the lake tool, set height from one of the correct vertices, cut through the lumps with a temporary strip of lake, set back to land, lay in your river. (0!!0)

Also this should now be in the Map Creation and/or Scenario Writing board. Not sure which, but will probably move it later.
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Re: Blue Mountains revamp Unread post

w00t! I found an easy way of marking out rivers. It turns out that someone has made a gizmo called the Overpass Turbo API. This wonderful bit of trickery pulls data from OpenStreetMap.

The good thing here is that rivers are marked on the OpenStreetMap as shapes, and these can be exported individually via a very simple process (described here). It's actually not necessary to go through the entire rigmarole if you just want the lines for a bunch of rivers. The query to run will be the same in all cases, except the name of the river will change. You can literally just keep pasting in the name of the next river into the wizard and keep exporting them one after the other. The only caveat is that the river you want to export has to be visible in the Overpass Turbo window. I assume this is a safeguard against multiple features around the world having the same name. If it only exports the one you're looking at, it will be the right one.

Anyway, once you have downloaded the .geojson files they can be drag-and-dropped into QGIS. They are already georeferenced, so there are no worries about projections. They will automatically match DEM's perfectly. A screenshot of the river lines can then exported as a PNG image, which can be used as an overlay on top of any BMP you want to apply to a GMP. The result is that you can get a stack of rivers accurately marked out on your GMP with hardly any effort. Which totally rocks. (0!!0)

Instant_rivers_just_add_water.jpg

Oh yes, while I think of it, the river that runs between Lithgow and Katoomba is called Coxs River, and following it is the easiest way of getting through the Blue Mountains. The Aborigines had been using that route for thousands of years, but Europeans didn't know about it and didn't think to ask. So the new arrivals thought the Blue Mountains were an impassable barrier, while the locals were just merrily strolling back and forth through them without any problems. :lol:
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Re: Blue Mountains revamp Unread post

Tried a couple of experiments, taking a smoothed map and an unsmoothed one. I get the impression that which is going to be best will depend on the situation and the author's aims. This one has some pretty serious terrain, with significant rivers running through deep and narrow gorges. These are going to have an interesting effect, because they run through an area that on the original map was a total blockage to the economy. If they are cut in smoothly, downhill all the way, they will allow Tycoonatron cargo flow through otherwise impassable terrain. I'm not exactly sure what overall effect this will have, but my instincts are telling me it will be good.

I had a quick try at cutting in some of the gnarliest rivers on this map, and IMO it's definitely easier with the unsmoothed map. The advantage is that even through narrow gorges there will be some low vertices that are pretty close to the real height. They will be only vertices though, not map pixel squares, and a river needs a pixel square to run on. However, if you have accurate vertices available this means setting the lake tool to cut through anything is a quick and easy process. I cut in the Shoalhaven, Kangaroo and Wollondilly rivers in little time and with no drama at all. I even enjoyed it :shock: just because it works so well. The only catch was because it was an experiment I tried it on a sandbox rather than the game map itself, which means I have to do it all over again on the game map. *!*!*!

There are some other advantages with the unsmoothed map too. Katoomba is on a small plateau, and the default smoothing on import rounds off the edges so much that there's hardly any area left. If you start with the unsmoothed one you have scope for tweaking it to be more useful, which you really have to do with the smoothed one anyway.

So, thinking about how to approach this for best results vs minimum stress, I reckon the go is to approach it like this:

1/ Import unsmoothed map. Oh dear, it's seriously gnarly, but no problem.
2/ Decide which rivers are worth having on the map, make a guide overlay BMP, and cut them in.
3/ Make a guide overlay for railway lines too. Most of these are also available from the Turbo Overpass API, although due to naming inconsistencies getting complete routes is a bit more work than getting river lines.
4/ With the rivers cut in, and with the relevant railway lines marked out, a fairly quick romp around the map should see the necessary routes adequately smoothed without lumping up the terrain in the wrong places.
5/ The lumpiness on the rest of the map can be dealt with by the smoothing brush, preserving features you think are worth preserving and just mass smoothing the rest.

Doesn't sound too bad when I think of it this way. I reckon it'll work. !*th_up*!
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Re: Blue Mountains revamp Unread post

Have made some progress. Working on an unsmoothed map import is going well. The process is generally easy and pleasant, and the results are good.

I'm aiming to make the railways routes that were actually built smooth, but anyone who wants to go off piste will have to take their chances. Most of the map will get a general light smoothing to ensure the economy works well and the terrain looks decent, but there will be no guarantees about smoothness for rail. I quite like it this way, because if you do decide to do something different you won't know what to expect, so IMO it adds to the interest and challenge. :-D

With the layout and topography being more accurate there are some inevitable changes compared to the original. The run from Campbelltown to Moss Vale, via Picton and Mittagong, now looks like this. Note that there is still work to be done on rivers and on route smoothing between Campbelltown and Picton, but Picton to Moss Vale is sorted. The grades are steeper than the original map but still perfectly usable.

Campbelltown-Moss-Vale.jpg

In real life the South coast Line runs through the Hacking River gorge, before doing all sorts of cliff-hugging trickery and tunnels at weird angles between Stanwell Park and Wollongong. I've now made it match the real thing, as far as is reasonable within RT3's limits (Stanwell Park is just a temporary marker, and won't be on the finished map).

The other line of interest down that way is the Unanderra-Moss Vale line. This wasn't built until the 1920's, but is included because a/ it's one of the gnarliest bits of line in the country and b/ it provides an alternative route to Wollongong to match the old map. Unlike the old map you will have to deal with the sorts of grades that it has in real life (adjusted for RT3, of course). It'll be fine running freight down from Goulburn, but will require light loads out of Wollongong on the way back.

Illawarra.jpg

The northern line from Sydney to Newcastle has been dealt with in a similar manner to the southern line. The famous Sydney Harbour Bridge didn't exist in this timeframe, and the harbour was bridged with a more modest structure further upstream. The line then runs through Hornsby and Berowra, before dropping down to the rail bridge at the Hawkesbury River. There are several tunnels at weird places north and south of the river (including directly at each end of the bridge) but for RT3 purposes one tunnel from the head of Mullet Creek to Gosford is a good approximation.

Northern.jpg

Then we have the Blue Mountains. The topography here is substantially different to the old map, so Glenbrook will be removed and will be replaced with Lawson for better spacing between stations. Either that or I'll remove Springbrook and keep Glenbrook (not completely sure yet). The track from Penrith to Katoomba is steep but workable. From Katoomba the track goes through several tunnels on the way to Lithgow, but one is enough for RT3. Note that this one has to be built from the north back to Katoomba to lay properly, but if you lay it in that direction it's fine.

Penrith-Katoomba.jpg

The line into Lithgow makes sense now. The line west and north from Lithgow also makes sense now, but again it's another big change from the original ATBM map. It now does what the real track does, and once over the Coxs River it splits into two branches: one heading west to Bathurst and the other heading north to Mudgee. Gulgong wasn't connected in this timeframe, and Kandos didn't exist at all, so they will be replaced with two towns that were on this line in the 19th century: Capertree and Rylstone.

There's an additional town between Bathurst and Orange too. Blayney is on the western line and was a natural stopping point between Bathurst and Orange, as well as being the northern end of the Demondrille line (which will be included later).

Western.jpg
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Re: Blue Mountains revamp Unread post

It just occurred to me that the NSWGR numbering system helpfully provides a guide to how rail was developing in this period, which may be useful for tweaking scenario scripting. What they did was name each class after the road number of the first in the class, with locomotives on the separate northern (Newcastle) network being numbered separately from the southern (Sydney) units. The northern ones ones were given an "N" suffix, so the 1 Class was a Sydney class and the 1N Class was a Newcastle class.

The Sydney network started with the 1 Class, which was four mixed traffic 0-4-2's in 1855. They got a fifth in 1856, which had detail differences so was designated the 5 Class. They also got two dedicated express locos in the same year: the 6 Class 2-2-2 (road numbers 6 and 7). This tells me that while starting with mixed traffic locos was obviously sensible, within a year they had already decided that they needed dedicated express haulers more than they needed dedicated freight haulers. So the scenario should develop express traffic fairly rapidly in the early years, which is an easy thing to arrange by event (temporary pax production increase).

The Newcastle network opened in 1857. The 1N Class was the same as the Sydney 1 Class, and it started with four locomotives in that class (road numbers 1N to 4N). So if playing for realism you wouldn't build anything at Newcastle for the first two game years. It may be worth scripting a separate territory to enforce this, as early haulage down the flat Hunter Valley terrain is often a good start in RT3. On the other hand having an 1857 northern opening enforced by scripting will reduce replay value, so may not be a good thing.

In 1858 the Sydney network got the 8 Class, which was a single 2-2-2 well tank unit. Obviously short haul express traffic was becoming even more important around Sydney. By this stage Sydney had five mixed traffic locos and three express locos, while Newcastle had four mixed traffic locos. The Sydney line reached Campbelltown in this year, while the Newcastle line still didn't go past Maitland.

The NSWGR stuck with the above locomotives (12 units in total, for both networks) until 1861. In that year five more locomotives were introduced, and they were all dedicated express units. The 9 Class 2-2-2 (this beastie) was the same unit as the 5N Class, with three going to Sydney and one going to Newcastle. Sydney also got the 12 Class 2-2-2 well tank, which was a slight variant of the 8 Class. This brings Sydney up to five locos for mixed traffic and seven locos for express (five for longer hauls, and two suburban tanks) so clearly express was the majority of traffic in the Sydney area by 1861, while in Newcastle it wasn't as important but was becoming a factor.

After this nothing changes until 1863, when the Newcastle network received the 6N Class 4-4-0T (road numbers 6N and 7N). These were the first dedicated freight units on the NSWGR, for short haul mining traffic. At the time there were coal mines around Newcastle itself, and it wasn't necessary to go far up the river to get coal (the line only reached Singleton in this year anyway) but Newcastle had been exporting coal since the late 1700's and it was a major part of the economy by the mid 19th century. It's unusual that these units were 4-4-0T's, bearing in mind that these were a UK design for low speed short haul freight and 4-4-0's weren't a UK thing at the time. It may say something about the quality of the track around the collieries, since the 4-4-0 was introduced in the US largely because it could follow poorly laid track. Sydney got the 13 Class 2-4-0 in the same year, indicating they had enough express capacity for the moment and wanted more mixed traffic capability. This was also the year when the Sydney line reached Penrith.

The only deliveries in 1864 all went to Newcastle. There was one express unit: the 8N Class, which was a sort of mutant 5N. There were also two 0-6-0 saddle tank grunters: the 9N Class. As 0-6-0ST's they would have been colliery/dockside units, so short haul freight is still the predominant haulage in the Newcastle area.



In 1865 the Sydney crew started getting serious about crossing the Blue Mountains. The line from Penrith to Glenbrook didn't actually open until 1867, but they were clearly planning ahead and knew they would need some real hauling ability. The southern line extension to Picton and Goulburn was also being planned at this stage, and that meant long hauls and grades too. So, in 1865 Sydney received another seventeen locomotives, more than doubling its existing roster in one hit.

Two of these were the 14 Class 2-2-2, an express choof noted for hitting 70 mph occasionally (even though they weren't really supposed to). These were used on the flatter area around Sydney itself, particularly the Penrith run. The next nine units were the 17 Class 0-6-0, the first dedicated freight grunters on the Sydney network. Six went to Sydney, and three went to Newcastle as the 11N Class (more of these were delivered to both networks in later years).

Sydney also received nine 2-4-0's: the 23 Class. It seems the single unit in the 1863 13 Class had been a trial run for a future order of 2-4-0's. Apparently the 23 Class were mainly used for passenger traffic on lines which didn't suit the 2-2-2's. They turned out to be a bit short of grunt over the Blue Mountains line, once it opened, so another four of the class were ordered with slightly smaller driving wheels in 1869 (the year in which Lithgow and Goulburn were connected).

After this things developed fairly normally until the mid 1870's, with both Sydney and Newcastle receiving a mix of locos that was slanted towards freight. For RT3 purposes the locos involved weren't significant.



The next big change came in 1877. By 1877 the Newcastle line was heading for Tamworth, Orange had been connected, and the southern line was down to Cootamundra. It had also been decided that the NSWGR was going all the way out to Bourke, to steal the lucrative Darling River trade that was going to Victoria and South Australia (at the time the colonies didn't think of themselves as one country, and were very competitive little mongrels). All of this meant more locos and better ones were needed, so they went and got them.

26 of the Class 79 4-4-0's arrived on the docks in Sydney, with four of them going to Newcastle as 27N-30N. They liked them so much that another 38 units were delivered over the next few years: 30 to Sydney and 8 to Newcastle. From looking at the plans for the 79 Class and the 23 Class it's clear the 79 Class is basically the smaller driving wheels version of the 23 Class, but with the two wheel front truck changed for a four wheel truck. My guess is a lot of the parts came from the exact same castings. The 79 class became the leading NSWGR express locos over the next decade.

In 1877 the NSWGR also decided to trial 2 Baldwin 4-4-0's (NSWGR 105 Class, Baldwin designation 8-30). They must have thought it was ok because a third one arrived in 1879, but no more were ordered. It may simply have been that by now they had enough express capability on the tracks and already ordered, so didn't see the need for more Baldwins. 1877 also saw the introduction of the 93 Class 0-6-0's. They got 50 of those, which turned out to be so good that they got another 30 later. Half of them were still in service 50 years later, and two kept running until 1972.

For a 25 year scenario starting in 1855 the last year of play is 1879, when the NSWGR finally got around to trying out Connies. (0!!0)
They got 11 Connies from Baldwin, which were the standard 10-34 production model of the time. Connies would be a nice last year addition to the scenario (although everyone would probably be grumbling about not getting them earlier).



If anyone wants to know, for the 1880's they apparently went nuts on Moguls. No idea why, but they got stacks of the things in four different classes: 70 units from Beyer Peacock and 30 from Baldwin. They also got another 60 4-4-0's (not the 79 Class) and a couple of other odds and ends.
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Re: Blue Mountains revamp Unread post

That's quite a bit of history there. Is there a correlation between population and number of trains they were using?
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Re: Blue Mountains revamp Unread post

Must be I suppose, but I haven't checked population figures. TBH that was deliberate, because I got into that while doing the Latvia scenario and ended up rescripting the whole thing from scratch. I thought this time around I wouldn't worry about it, on the basis that the existing building densities for each city work well for overall gameplay and maybe I should give the OCD a miss. !*th_up*!

It will probably need some tweaking here and there. The greater map width and often steeper grades have me thinking that with the slow locos available it would make sense to have a 20% range increase by default (ie: -17% water, sand and oil consumption, so 1/0.83 = 1.2) and the rail allowances should probably be increased 10% to balance track units against average distances. It may also benefit from a moderate reduction to bridge and/or tunnel cost, but the overall cities and economy should transfer across without much in the way of problems. If the greater land area means too many resources seed to keep the original balance, I'll just reduce overall building density and adjust city sliders to keep the same number of buildings over time in the cities. There are only a few city recipes anyway (very simple setup) so adjusting things won't be an issue.
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Re: Blue Mountains revamp Unread post

Well, after doing this one I think I can say I have totally got the hang of the RT3 rivers and terraforming tools. It has also given me a good feel for how many wildly tricky rivers I can put on a map before I start thinking it'd be more fun to do something else. Turns out it's about how many are on this map. Now I know. !*th_up*!

Looking at the way the Hunter River goes on the way to Muswellbrook, and given the topography would require a very winding route along the river, you might be thinking that for RT3 you'd just say "#&*$! it" and cross the river at Singleton, before heading cross country to Muswellbrook. This is actually what the main line does in real life. The blokes who built it had the same thoughts. :mrgreen:

Rivers.jpg
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Re: Blue Mountains revamp Unread post

This is going well. Rivers are all done (yay!) and the terrain has been sorted to get rid of the extreme jaggedness.
Events have been transferred across from the original map to the new one, including changes for haulage to Yass instead of Queanbeyan.

Found a good trick here. You can have two separate installations of RT3 running at the same time. Everybody else probably knew this. *!*!*!
Anyway, it means copy/pasting event dialogues and newspapers from one map to another is a piece of cake. It obviously also makes checking event conditions easy (as long as you remember which window you're looking at). The only things left to do now are paint in the relevant economic regions and add the rest of the cities, which I will do tonight. As soon as those details are done it will be ready for a test run.

I expect overall seeding density might need a reduction (greater land area might mean too much in the way of resources). I also suspect the original's track cost increase of 10% will be unnecessary. This map will easily chew up 10% more track to meet the goals anyway, so track cost will automatically be at least 10% higher than the original. Track allowances will probably need a 10% increase too. And of course the port recipe will be changed to do a coal/steel conversion instead of just supplying iron.

Possible other tweaks:

1/ The original has a 20% reduction in production of logs at the 15 year mark (easily accessible forests logged out). I might ditch this event and just slightly increase the other logs reduction events. Either that or possibly have two forest regions, with the one close to Sydney being "logged out".

2/ At the moment I haven't transferred the Alcohol, etc "bonus events" to the new map because I never found they added anything to the game, so wanted to give them some more thought. One was broken anyway (fuel cost by event doesn't work) and there are doubts about the logic of another.

Oh yes, satellite shots. Have thought about adding one, but there's an obvious catch. There ain't no 1865 satellite shots available. All their steam-powered satellites must have crashed or something. The problem is that land use and land cover have changed quite dramatically since the mid-19th century, so a 2019 satellite shot isn't going to be an accurate representation of the period. I could guesstimate the changes (have tried finding old land cover maps but have not had much luck) and then play around with Photoshoppery on the satellite shot, but at the moment I'm tossing up whether that is worth it and thinking maybe it's better to just paint this one is the editor. Terrain painting seems to work perfectly now that dgVoodoo graphics are a thing.
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Re: Blue Mountains revamp Unread post

I suppose you could include the co-ordinates so that if someone is bothered they can try to make their own sat or whatever imagery.

In terms of balancing the map, changing up the geography (more lumpy overall) and more rivers? will likely have a bigger impact than the change in scaling. You might find that less buildings seed in the mountainous regions than before. If you didn't remember, there is a page past the events in the editor that shows how many buildings of each type are currently on the map. For an idea (cause of the random) you could compare these numbers with the original.

Multiple instances? Yes. Since I started doing something with SCBC (I was trying Railroad Corporation game which is in early access so have been slacking on tweaks to the track quota I talked about) I have been running in windowed mode. And typically I will have an in-progress game where I mock up the events for testing, and the actually map file where I fix the more general bugs as I go and later will transpose the finalized new sequences. What I did was set the MASTER one to slightly smaller resolution so I would be less likely to mix them up.
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