Canyon Lands - BETA Version

[Wolverine@MSU]

I only doubled-up in one city but with profits being sub-maximal it only had the effect of splitting the profits between the two, unlike the first go-round where I doubled up on a few cities and saw greater profit than with only one of each. I bought into Arizona a year or two after the price dropped only because it took a little longer to amass the cash needed (I had already maxed out on bonds) and was no where near being able to buy-in before the price drop.

[Hawk]

I wasn't even aware there was a price drop to buy into Arizona. I just bought into it when it became available. By that time I did have enough money to spare.
Maybe I should have waited a little longer.

[Wolverine@MSU]

I'm not sure but I think at the beginning it costs $12M for access. At some point, and I don't remember when, the price was $3M. I'm not on a computer with RT3 on it so I cant check, but a quick look at a running scenario and the Events would answer this one.

[RulerofRails]

Yeah, sometimes I have seen more revenue from 2x Hotels, but sometimes it's worse. Often I only use one, so can't identify what causes this difference.

Warning! Spoilers ahead! If you don't want spoilers play the map first. The access price drops at the beginning of 1947. I also believe that the towns in Canyonlands are more important than the scenic sites both for passengers and freight. I developed the strategy of connecting to them all during the second year (except Jacobs Lake). A peek in the editor confirmed an added benefit from the cargo production increases received.

Just did a start and with out-of-city stations to collect Cattle and some fairly heavy delivery schedule management I bought access and connected to Supai in June 1938. I used up all bonds for this at 10%. I think it will be worth it in the long run.

Another spoiler tip is to use small stations at scenic sites you will not use for freight traffic. If done near year end, some connections will pay for themselves very quickly. I do this with the easy to reach ones on flat ground, even if it costs a little more than you will receive, the CBV boost can help to get more bonds at better rates.

[Hawk]

Oh! That drop in price. OK! I did buy into Arizona for 3 mil, not 12 mil. I though y'all were talking about another drop in price.

In both my plays I only had one hotel and one restaurant at each station, and I hauled freight and passengers from/to everywhere.

[Wolverine@MSU]

Bug report (maybe it's already been noted): The Status Page announcement about the next start date for the advertising doesn't increment when the player opts out.

I'm still playing with the "connect all cities first" strategy and it does bring in more revenue from trains than by connecting the tourist sites. I've double-tracked most of the main connections and am running several trains between the cities. Have started connecting tourist sites and am waiting for price drop for Arizona before I connect Supai. I ran up my bonds to build track so I don't have enough to pay the $12M for instant access.

[RayofSunshine]

In a 2nd attempt I did get a medal, but off hand, I don't remember which one. Any way a question. I didn't buy any P.O. as in the initial attempt, as there was basically losses at each depot. But, I did buy a "hotel and tavern or resturant?"at each depot. The question? Has anyone added any more businesses to see if there could be more revenue?

[RulerofRails]

The question? Has anyone added any more businesses to see if there could be more revenue?

If you mean multiple Hotels and Restaurants, we don't have a definite answer for you. Sometimes it does help in busy locations. If you choose the options that will increase these building's revenue you could place two Hotels in the busiest locations. That means in the cities or in hub locations. Only use one of each at most scenic sites. Unlike Post Offices which give an indirect profit due to more mail hauled while each P.O. itself shows a small loss, the H/R profits are easily visible so you can experiment and work out what works better for that city also depending on the setup of your rail system. If two Hotels is more profitable, you could then try adding a second Restaurant.

[RayofSunshine]

Thanks RoR,
For you comment. I well understand that the buildings would be placed in a hub or high volume depot. There is just not enough volume in those scenic site to warrant more. Will have to try purchasing and watching the revenue of those depots in which more Hotels and maybe Resturaunts are placed. Just thought that maybe some member might have opt to incorporate them into their playing already, so as to get an answer.

[RulerofRails]

First, a testing note: the notices for rumors/application of cheap access rights to Arizona show up even if one already has access there.

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I finally finished a no bonus play in November 1957. I didn't hold back, building stations outside the cities at Livestock Farms and Logging Camps. Otherwise, I find that those cargoes mainly go to waste on the map. I built Hotels at many of these out-of-city stations. I used fairly heavy timed freight deliveries to keep profits a steady $10M throughout the development phase.

I was worried that I might need to "build cities" with Hotels, I think that the math is favorable when you use them for the end points (scenic sites that don't have geographical through traffic) as pure Passenger supply/demand. Even at the maximum 3k loss, they will increase profits at many other Hotels more than making up for this. In the end I didn't put dual Hotels or Restaurants in any location. I was expecting a tough time and planning for around $2.2M a year consistent H/R profits. I was worried that since I failed by $3M to have 43 scenic site connections at the end of year 6, that waiting for the beginning of year 8 (Navajo access is set to beginning of the year) might make things nail-bitingly close. Strategy was to mainly focus on profits until I had connected all sites and then finally shift the focus to express optimization.

Turns out that there is an event to reduce mail that increases H/R revenues and passenger production every five years that smooths this path. It took 6,240 loads of passengers to reach the $50M profits with my setup. Maximum passengers in a year (1956) was 460 loads with H/R profits a squeak above $4M. Had track worth $99M, H/Rs ("industries") worth $10M, and 180 trains. Used Zephyrs. When the F3 appeared I used it for freight. In 1949, I upgraded all Zephyrs to F3s (having several skins installed meant I could choose a different one to keep a visual distinction between passenger and freight trains). Costs went up/breakdowns went down. It was time to sit back and enjoy watching my network.

Canyonlands routing no bonus.jpg (17.66 KiB) Viewed 6667 times

Here's a routing diagram. I wasn't as fussy to get low grades preferring to lay cheaper track. Graded track with little ballast underneath it. This map is good to practice cheap track-laying on.

Other than obtaining a connection in the first place, I aimed to have less scenic sites that were at the end-of-the-line. Places where passengers can potentially arrive or depart in one direction and due to location (or poor routing) have no way to depart from the other side of the station. These places are normally near the edges of the map or surrounded by difficult terrain. The Hotels in these places will suffer and probably be only slightly profitable. Examples: Virgin River Canyon, Camelback, Horse Springs, Shadow Canyon.

I believe that express pays little regard to topography or extra distance the train covers when the track is not very direct (frequency of service matters). With routing that takes trains on a circular route some places like Vermilion Cliffs that are within the map can become a connection link for example a run from The Dives/Vermilion Cliffs/to Marble Canyon.

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A map with such varied topography naturally has isolated demand islands. These are really easy to use for a timed-delivery strategy. Here's one:

The good thing about this type of isolation is that it's almost complete allowing a longer wait for a price differential to develop with less risk of cargo escape. The 40-50k range is attainable here. If anyone wants to experiment, this is likely a good place for that. Diesel is a good cargo to start with.

I also discovered a new trick which can be used in place of or in conjunction with stopping some trains empty*: setup the return journey for Express only, this prevents the spread of barely profitable cargo as the game will tend to do otherwise. Or to put it another way, a pretty effective isolation of where freight is currently allowed to travel. This keeps price differences distinct and the map cleaner. Switching to a new route is pretty easy. For example a train loads at Witmore with "any cargo", then at The Pulpit it can only load express.

*Reasons: 1. Different pricing means varying amounts of time for price to drop in an over-supply condition. 2. When supplying from previous stock-pile sites, being no longer being in a condition of oversupply, their demand can easily end up greater than that at the current site before the optimum time to switch everything for a new stock-pile site.

[Gumboots]

Question for OilCan: was this map intended to be played with the original 1.06 engine stats, or with Lirio's "rebalance" stats?

Reason I ask is that my 1.06 is currently set on Lirio's stats, so I may have to change it back if they're not suitable (TBH I've been having my doubts about some aspects of those stats anyway).

[OilCan]

The short answer is the original 1.06V.

The long answer is that I don't think it really matters in this particular game. Engine performance is important, but the wise use of engines is more important in this game, I think. The game was created using the original 1.06V simply because that is the version I have loaded at this time.

I would encourage the player to download and install the colorful passenger cars found in the user made rollingstock,just for the novelty of it if nothing else.

[Gumboots]

You mean WP&P's custom rolling stock? I've had those for yonks. They're great. I never use anything else.

They do change car weights and introduction dates compared to the default though. They're not just rolling stock skins but an entire replacement pack (stats and all). I find them much better though.

Anyway, I might try it both with the original 1.06 locomotive stats and with Lirio's, just for interest. Might give me more insight into possible loco stats changes.

[Gumboots]

Gumboots pointed out a while ago how Post Offices do add profit, albiet a small profit, that's why I promoted them in this game. The train is going by the station anyway, it might as well pick up the mail. If you look at the annual cargo hauls in the editor, mail loads become a 'respectable' number and well worth the annual $1K cost.

I'm about to have a go at this one, and was just checking things out at the start. The scenery is great. I like how you've done that.

I'm not so pleased with the pre-laid track and inline sheds and towers. Personally I'd prefer to have a bit more cash at the start and have to set up my own facilities, since I always (well, nearly always) use spurs for them. From my perspective, existing inline facilities are just a hindrance and a waste of money. Come to think if it, I'd really prefer to lay my own track.

It'd be handy to have a list of what sites need to be connected added to the briefing, so that people could easily check it during the game. At the moment, the only way of figuring it out is by digging around in the editor and trying to remember them all, or making your own notes elsewhere.

[Gumboots]

Another thing I noticed. In the weak engines event you ask about removing 7 engines from the selection list, but 5 of them are not even in the selection list. They aren't even checked in the loco list in the editor.

Class P8
Class S
Class S3
Class A1
Mallard - Class A4 4-6-2

I probably wouldn't mind having the Mallard available, even though it's more expensive than the Zephyr because it's another ultra cool engine and it's available until 1968.

The Class S3 is only available until 1925 so it wouldn't even be an option in this scenario.

I have this too. None of those engines are checked in the editor. Neither is the V2. The only steamers I have available are the Atlantic, Pacific, Northern, Black 5, Challenger, Big Boy, and Red Devil (if anyone plays that long). The Big Boy and Challenger are never worth their running costs anyway, and the Atlantic and Pacific are useless on anything that's not dead flat, so the only effective options are the Northern for express and the Black 5 for freight.

Mind you, those are probably the best engines for those jobs anyway, out of those which are supposed to be available.

Gumboots pointed out a while ago how Post Offices do add profit, albiet a small profit, that's why I promoted them in this game. The train is going by the station anyway, it might as well pick up the mail. If you look at the annual cargo hauls in the editor, mail loads become a 'respectable' number and well worth the annual $1K cost.

I've since done a bit more checking up on that. What I've found is that post offices can be worth it when you have widely separated towns that are serviced somewhat infrequently. That's when the double holding time can come in handy, particularly if you're struggling for cargo anyway. On maps that have towns fairly close together, and especially if they are well-serviced by a free-flowing system, the extra holding time given by post offices isn't necessary or beneficial. You might as well skip them and put your cash into other things.

My current rule of thumb is that if I'm seeing one mail car for every two or three pax cars on an established system, post offices probably aren't going to be worth it. If I'm only seeing one mail car for every eight or ten pax cars, throwing some post offices around might be a good idea. This is assuming no production modifiers are affecting mail or pax.

___ Trains & Passengers ___

Recall that engines with high appeal to passengers will earn up to 30% more revenue and ugly engines will lose up to 15% revenue. Ultra Cool engines are the most preferred by passengers.

In our recent testing, which has given a lot of insight into how the game's coding really works, it was found that this is another place where the RT3 manual is wrong. The actual figures are:

Ultra Cool: +20%
Looks Sharp: +10%
Acceptable: normal
Ugly: -10%

Obviously this only applies to pax. All locos earn the normal amount for mail, so an "any express" consist will usually have a lower revenue boost than the rating would indicate. The other thing you have to watch is that a mixed or "any express" consist takes no account of the loco's pax appeal rating when deciding what to load. If mail is $2 better before the pax appeal rating is considered, the loco will only load mail even though pax might be $8 better once the rating is applied. Same goes for freight if you're running mixed consist.

[Hawk]

It'd be handy to have a list of what sites need to be connected added to the briefing, so that people could easily check it during the game. At the moment, the only way of figuring it out is by digging around in the editor and trying to remember them all, or making your own notes elsewhere.

Well, you have to connect to all sites and towns on the map.

[Gumboots]

Ah, I didn't realise you had to connect all of them. It doesn't say "all" anywhere. It just says 50, and I didn't go through them all and count them. If all is what's required, best to just say all.

Anyway, I just found out something. Don't, whatever you do, put a dining car on the first run from St. George down to Camelback. It will lose you money. Why? Because there is a stack of very, very lucrative freight that will fill up the consist if you set it to auto, so no passengers will be carried for the first few runs to Camelback anyway. This means the dining car is a wasted slot.

No need for anything Ultra Cool. Ignore the instructions for these first runs. Just buy two of the cheapest freight locos you can get your hands on, load them up with 8 cars max consist and no caboose or dining car, and send them down to Camelback at the same time. It's the best initial profit you can get.

Oh, and before that use the subsidy cheat to get your company $1 million, bulldoze the inline facilities, and build yourself two maintenance spurs (one at each end). Your loco will have enough water to reach Camelback, but won't have enough to get back to the nearest inline water tower anyway, so it will be crawling up the grade shortly after leaving Camelback. If you have a spur at each end, no worries. Your loco will always have water (and oil, for that matter).

Edit: Well there's certainly plenty of money flying around. $5 million profit over the first three years, without even trying too hard. If I'd done the usual max bonds/max expansion it could have been higher, but just for something different I've been only taking out a couple of bonds here and there.

The vast majority of the revenue in the early years is from freight. I've been running Black 5's everywhere because they're cheap and effective, with outstanding reliability. Dining cars are of debatable value in the early years, and hotels and restaurants are basically worthless. They probably take off later in the game, but aren't really worth building before 1940 AFAICT. You could get far more income by forgetting hotels and restaurants and putting the cash into expanding your railway. I've been putting them at every station just for the heck of it, and because the strategy notes suggested it, but next time I wouldn't bother.

[Hawk]

I just opened my Gold save and double checked myself and there are 50 sites, so I guess you're probably right. It should say to connect all.

[Gumboots]

My loco selection is fine. Don't know what to suggest. Do you have another install to try the map in and compare?

I just added them in. Easiest thing to do since OC's version is fine, and now since your install is fine, no need to worry about it anymore.

I do have a couple other 106 setups I could check in if necessary.

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Edit 1: I did put this map in another 1.06 setup, a default setup, and the Class S, Class P8, Class A1, and the Mallard are checked in the loco list in the editor. The Class S3 is not checked, but it isn't available after 1925 anyway.
In the setup I had this map in originally, the Mallard was labeled Class A4. My guess is the setup I was playing in had some loco customization installed at some point.

Ok, I have this figured out. It was the clue about the Mallard that gave it away. I'm running Lirio's stats on 1.06, and she renamed some locos. No prizes for guessing what she renamed the Mallard to. She also renamed the other locos that are missing from the selected list in this scenario. So it's now obvious that Lirio's update pack won't work with a locomotive selection that was set with default stats. The renaming must stop the game recognising those locos in the selection list.

This is interesting because it tells us that list relies on calling the display name of the loco rather than using its unique ID, which seems a bit odd to me but must be how they coded it.

[RulerofRails]

The difference in fuel costs between the Black 5 and say the Northern was part of the reason I got interested in fuel costs. I see you found some use for the pre-laid track. That's good.

I think the strategy tips are aimed more at players with less experience who may have trouble completing the goals of the map. They aren't super specific the way you or I would define that particular strategy. Building Hotels at most sites is pretty necessary to eventually come up with the profits.