New Holyland Beta

[Blackhawk]

About the Fertilizer: the notice of "20% higher production" is misleading. It's just text. The mechanisms the game uses behind the scenes of the bca files don't allow a "boost" of any kind.

What we have is a 0.2 Fertilizer -> 1 Sugar conversion. The important part is that the value at position 042 (decimal address) in the header of the bca file only governs Conversion entries (Supply Only, or the regular production of the Sugar Farm isn't covered). For the Sugar Farm this number is 2 loads per year. So that would be a theoretical 4 loads per year when combined with the normal supply. However, using the small fractions (necessary for profitability) is prone to over-runs which is why you see 6 loads per year here.

Hang on a minute. Are you saying that instead of giving a 20% production boost it actually gives 100% or more? Because that makes a huge difference to the economics of supplying fertiliser.

There is no boost per se, it's just an additional conversion chain and the production cap is more of a loose cap than hard cap depending on the profitability of the conversion.

See RoR's prior post from a year ago when Crazy Jim was trying to mess around with things: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4039&p=42540&hilit= ... zer#p42540

[RulerofRails]

Now is it better for the company to deliver rock to the furnace then ceramics.... Assuming the player owns the furnace and CCplant.

Interesting question. I went and looked through some saved games and the 2 part chain is winning (in terms of industrial profit per load) due mainly to lower overhead costs. It's not by that much, the economy and supply demand strength can cause big spread in this figure, but from a couple of saved games I would roughly estimate that it might be around 10% in favor of the Ceramics chain.

However, when you consider that the Concrete plant costs $1900k to build (unprofitable can be picked up for $1100k) with a further $975k to upgrade, this is over double in industry expenditures. So the ROI of the Cement Kiln is far higher, giving this option a clear advantage.

From plays of this map, a Cement Kiln (upgraded) at close to maximum production (paying full price for Rock, but selling Concrete a bit cheap at average $176) is giving approx. 60% ROI over the span of the map.

[Cash on Wheels]

2.4 loads is the actual hex output of grain farm. On top of that you will get 1 extra load of grain for every 1/5th load of fertilizer the farm accepts. The farms seem to only accept 0.7 fertilizers loads at the max. So 7÷2=3.5.

3.5+2.4=5.9 not 6. But this game may not show all decimal points. (Like it does with cash, the game may say you have 973k in the bank but is is actually something like $973,456.)

So 3.6×0.2=0.72 fertilizer loads accepted a year.

[Gumboots]

There is no boost per se, it's just an additional conversion chain and the production cap is more of a loose cap than hard cap depending on the profitability of the conversion.

Yeah I got that. I was talking in terms of output of sugar, which is the usable/shippable product. IOW, 2 loads basic output, 4 or more with fertiliser. As opposed to the in-game text, which effectively claims 2.4 loads output with fertiliser.

[RulerofRails]

2.4 loads is the actual hex output of grain farm.

Where did you find "2.4" output in the bca file? The Grain Farm may output that in Boom times, but the base figure in the hex according to my editor (decimal address of 247) is precisely "2".

Gumboots, do you remember our discussion about the Corn Farms in AoS IV - Blue Streak? viewtopic.php?p=40117#p40117
Extra Corn is good, but in many scenarios fertilizing Grain/Sugar/Rice farms can pay because you can then make more Alcohol. I don't normally make a special effort to "fertilize" (part of my rule of thumb about mostly avoiding countryside stations), just let it spread naturally.

[Cash on Wheels]

2.4 loads is the actual hex output of grain farm.

Where did you find "2.4" output in the bca file? The Grain Farm may output that in Boom times, but the base figure in the hex according to my editor (decimal address of 247) is precisely "2".

Gumboots, do you remember our discussion about the Corn Farms in AoS IV - Blue Streak? viewtopic.php?p=40117#p40117
Extra Corn is good, but in many scenarios fertilizing Grain/Sugar/Rice farms can pay because you can then make more Alcohol. I don't normally make a special effort to "fertilize" (part of my rule of thumb about mostly avoiding countryside stations), just let it spread naturally.

Ur right 00000040=2 however the max production I've run across without fertilizer is 2.4 and if there is no demand around the grain farm will only produce one load.

[Gumboots]

Gumboots, do you remember our discussion about the Corn Farms in AoS IV - Blue Streak? viewtopic.php?p=40117#p40117

I remember it, but at the time it didn't click that farms were effectively "mini-warehouses" with odd conversions coded in.

[RulerofRails]

Ur right 00000040=2 however the max production I've run across without fertilizer is 2.4 and if there is no demand around the grain farm will only produce one load.

Please note that I haven't tested thoroughly, but these appear to be game rules:

1. Higher production in better economy. The farms almost seem to be a simple 10% per economic level, so boom is +2 levels, 120% of normal, or 2.4. Assuming a little, but it's likely that this only applies to Supply functions. It's pretty easy to see that there's less variation in output due to economic level with regular industries (mainly use Conversion functions).
2. When a Supply function doesn't make a profit, it outputs approx. 50% of stated output. You see this with Ports and Warehouses set to produce cargoes of no value. For Demand-only functions see this. A Conversion function that doesn't make a profit will be actively throttled. I haven't tried to work out the rule for the minimum on that.

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Side-note: Did anyone notice that it's impossible to build an industry on the site of a bulldozed station?

I don't normally build countryside stations. But to get Electricity sparking on the One Korea map (2nd phase) I built 3 Electric Plants (couldn't afford a 4th right then) on one countryside cell with plenty of room for a fourth. (Please understand that they were overlapping surrounding cells physically, but to the game they are on one cell because all their logos, center of industry, are on it.) The ground was perfectly flat with no other buildings anywhere near. I was impatient and wanted instant production, so decided that while waiting for money that the stations were so cheap (50% of normal) that I would just burn a small one in the empty space so cargo was dumped precisely at the right spot. Well, guess what, when I dozed the station a couple months later to build the fourth Electric Plant, it wont go into that nice space I left!

Did a little testing and the same appears to apply to bulldozed maintenance sheds and service towers as well. Only a very small space is "blocked", but with large footprint buildings that need to fit in a specific space it may be enough to ruin your fun.

[Gumboots]

I'd try the same trick I used on Juriko's Latvia map to get rid of a "ghost" river bed that was invisible but prevented track being laid. Lay a new one straight over the top of it, then bulldoze that. It works for ghost rivers. They become editable. No idea if would work for ghost stations. Might have to be done in the editor too.

[RulerofRails]

I went back to my last save. I tried that trick after I finished: didn't help. Thanks for the suggestion.

To get this thread back on topic a little, I tried replaying the map from the point when I basically just sat and waited for cash to come in, but this time I electrified to buy the BR E111. I think the economy stayed a bit better this time but conversely I didn't put any effort in to watch for new industries, fix any problems that occurred etc.. The electrification and new engine costs were to the tune of almost $60M. Got a lot closer at the end of 2005 (Prosperity):

Would have been $1Bln in Boom times. So, this indicates that it WAS worth electrifying here after all industries had been purchased. Leaves the question, should I have started to do it earlier?

I mainly did this to see if there was a case for electrification (as a ROI proposition) in an established profitable network when electric engine prices are high (the cheapest is 4x the QJ) and you are on a time limit for this type of goal.

[Cash on Wheels]

Played through again. Adjusted this start to $350k in player cash. Now that I have a better idea what to do, I was able to get to.......... $977m with a few mistakes along the way. Next beta is further down on this page.

[Cash on Wheels]

I have stopped at 1986 with a PNW of $25M. I don't see how I can ever reach 1 billion in the remaining 20 years. I think I can reach $250M, but that's just a guess.

I did not choose to add the new industries, instead staying with the default 1.06V industries. My industry base was just beginning to blossom after a 5 year recession. My next move was to invest into nuclear and then into recycling in the early 1990s.............

Due to the mass amount of $$$ needed and a little oilcan demand, Recycling & ammo have been added to version 2.

Oilcan or anyone, have you ever run into trouble with 'game messages' reverting back to 'dialog'

These yearly events do so:

Suez crx
G2T3
g3t3

I don't want the player clicking on 4 dialogs at the end of every year in the later stages!

[RayofSunshine]

Guess that I am doing better than OilCan, as in 1986 I do have $250M, but of the same comment, I don't see how it would be possible to get another $750M for the required $1B. Mathematically that is. OilCan's $750M? However, a very interesting scenario, even with those "mountains", which can be "negotiated" in track laying.
I did invest early into industries, so am getting a good return, so as to keep a positive "dividend", even though it is sometimes only $.05. Better than "$0". LOL

[OilCan]

Oilcan or anyone, have you ever run into trouble with 'game messages' reverting back to 'dialog'

Yes, all the time in 1.06V. My work-around solution is to start the creation of every new map in 1.05V, enter 1 event as a game message and then move the map into 1.06V. I duplicate the game message event, carried over from 1.05V, as a template each time I want a game message event in 1.06V.

Otherwise, every one of my game message events created in 1.06V converts itself into a diaglog. It was very frustrating when this started happening.

[RulerofRails]

I suspected that this was a bug with the radio button where it fails to set the flag in the file. Checked it out thanks to Milo's notes on the GMP file. Sure enough the flag that should be set 03 when the "Game Message" button is selected is remaining at 00.

While Oilcan's workaround is good when starting a new map, when you have everything setup (Quarries etc. pre-placed) you can't load the map in 1.05 anymore (unless you strip stuff, to put it back later).

There's another option if you are willing to use a hex editor. The easy option is to search for the event name. You should be able to identify that you have the correct result by seeing your message text a few lines lower down. Once you are sure, then take the decimal address of the start of the event name and add 2006 to find this flag. Set the flag to 03 and you have a working game message.

[Cash on Wheels]

Guess that I am doing better than OilCan, as in 1986 I do have $250M, but of the same comment, I don't see how it would be possible to get another $750M for the required $1B. Mathematically that is. OilCan's $750M? However, a very interesting scenario, even with those "mountains", which can be "negotiated" in track laying.
I did invest early into industries, so am getting a good return, so as to keep a positive "dividend", even though it is sometimes only $.05. Better than "$0". LOL

You are 8n good shape with $250m. If you choose wisely in An event in 1988 you should be well on your way. I wanted to simulate the dotcom bubble of 2000 & the housing boom of 2007. I'm working on having a fix economy in the later years of the map. I'll fix that & above when I discover some time.

[Cash on Wheels]

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New Beta!

RoR's game message fix worked!

REMOVED 01/29/18



-Renamed Blast Furnace to Cement Kiln, updated building on the first post
-Economy is no longer random in the last 10 years
-My run on expert with no AI netted a max PNW of $870M
-Forgot to make sure medal events fire, fix if you want.
-Too many other changes to list.

With all of the excessive saving, this map is starting to look sloppy. I will need to a .GMP edit soon!

[RulerofRails]

I ran through it. Got the billion in Nov. 1997 (economy went Boom in September). Map is easier now.

Didn't ever see a supply port in Alexandria (worth about $4-5m per year, without port too much bother to utilize all Crystal production IMO, on the Steel side Waste let me make some Autos later in the game regardless), had no seeded Nuclear Plants, and less Oil (eventually built beside the wells, produced Toys, no Diesel). This was more than balanced by more starting cash, higher density, less pax reduction, and fluking the second "bonus" choice.

Played with 3 AI again, and you sort of need to connect to Tel Aviv right away, but I found it far easier to encourage them to start companies by leaving the rest of Israel open for the first year or so. Otherwise, if I expand strongly out of the box they tend to become side-line investors in my company, and I really don't want to waste dividend. This time I ended the game with a double-tracked Stone bridge over the Canal.

Comments:
Events worked as advertised.

I noticed the river junctions in Egypt look better. Isn't it hard to get them looking nice? In case you missed it, Gumboots gave a tip or two to make them pretty here: viewtopic.php?p=34089#p34089.

[RayofSunshine]

There was an avenue of which I did not take advantage, which could be a mistake. It is that of getting finances from the Company transferred to my PNW. Millions at a time would make a difference.

[RulerofRails]

Ray, are you playing the latest version? It's easier and has bugs fixed.

IMO, the transfer option is best used near the start to help gain fast ownership. I'm talking about $500k company cash -> player, in the first year.

Start tips/spoilers: 1st year should be over $1M profits, if you connect Tel Aviv to Mitzpe Ramon and build a Cement Kiln/Furnace on the same cell as the quarry, if you installed the Cement Kiln you will want to upgrade that pretty quickly.

Transferring $500k company cash -> player could be roughly compared to needing to take out an extra company bond. Each time you use the transfer you are losing CBV so credit rating and Share Price take a hit, but IMO worth doing once in the early game simply to limit margin exposure when gaining 100% ownership of your company.

Strategically, the main reason to use this option is if you have spare cash but you can't raise dividends anymore. Because of the possible bonus cash here, this situation can happen (dividend can't be set much higher than company profit), but in my play above I didn't use it expect that once at the start.

Of course you should be investing until you dominate the map (shouldn't have spare cash beforehand). I didn't even use any dividends on my play until I owned 98% of all reliably profitable industry. This includes the regular Farms etc. running at 10% ROI. Of course those are the last I will buy (build to utilize all un-used resources first, this is normally much better ROI, 20%+), and if time is running out there's a time to stop buying them.

The simple calculation would be that 10% ROI will repay itself at 10 years from the end; 20% ROI will repay itself at 5 years. I use this as a rough guide, but if you really want to get technical you need to consider two other balancing factors: lower effective ROI due to overhead and the boost that extra profit has on share price (esp. in Boom Times when production/prices are higher).

In the last play I finished buying up all industries and expanding my rails (missed 3 out of the way cities) in 1989, so I turned dividends on for the first time at the start of 1990 (had -$10M personal debt with 100% ownership in my company and majority in the remaining AI). From then on, I mainly just bought the new farms. I did however develop the Recycling/Waste industry as well, so these expenses kept my spare cash fairly close to what I could set the dividend. My final dividend was set at $51.2M per year, so you can see cash was starting to creep higher.