When do I Switch to Diesel or Electric?

[Firefly 2-2-2]

Ok so it's 1945 in my latest playthru in the US Midwest, and we have plenty of electric and diesel locos available already. The only thing is, while these techs are still in their infancy, Steam is already very mature and steam trains are really that good.

If we look at the charts, using US-specific locos, the H-10, the Northern and the U1 are all great trains. Their fuel and maintenance costs aren't that high, they look sharp or are ultra cool. Plus they are fast and powerful. I just upgraded from 4-4-0 Eight Wheeler -> H10 Class then -> U1 Class in 1944, and I don't regret a single bit of it.

But diesel and electric trains lack that spin which makes them different. Electric trains often have higher maintenance costs, *besides* they are Ugly and that takes down my Express revenue. Their speeds are often inferior to the latest steam models, and their pulling power isn't that remarkably different or better.

Same thing for diesels. There's one cheap diesel coming around in 1947, but it's "Ugly" and that might make up for its decreased maintenance costs. It's fairly powerful. I forgot how it's called, though. All on all, diesel x steam seems roughly on par with regards to costs, but Steam still looks better and is slightly more powerful.

Electric on the other hand doesn't seem worth the cost of upgrade. Electric track costs more to lay and to maintain, electric trains also aren't that cheaper than steam or diesel in terms of maintenance. The biggest differential of course is even the cheapest electric trains will get the indirect costs of extra track maintenance added upon their performance, but maybe they wouldn't need that many service towers, anyway?

When it's best to upgrade to diesel or electric? Also, do I pick diesel or electric?

[Gumboots]

I never play electric or diesel anyway (or only extremely rarely) but they are cheaper to run.

The game's fuel economy ratings are deceptive. Extremely so. The way it works is that your fuel bill is proportional to the total train weight multiplied by the economy rating. The economy scale is linear, so a rating of 4 (Above average) has 20% lower fuel costs than a rating of 5 (Average) if both trains weigh the same.

The thing is that diesel and electric locos are usually substantially lighter than the big steamers, and that makes them cheaper to run even if the nominal fuel rating is the same. As a rough example, something like the Deltic will be around 100 "tons" for loco weight, while the Pacific is around 300, and the Big Boy is up over 600. Consist weight for D era freight is a maximum of 333 "tons" (7 x freight cars + 53 for caboose) so if your loco is up around 300 that means your total is over 600, compared to the diesel which totals about 400 pulling the same consist.

IOW, with the same economy rating the Deltic will have around 2/3 the fuel bill of the Pacific. And it has a better rating.

Short version: do not trust the basic charts. They lie. Prodigiously.

[Firefly 2-2-2]

I never play electric or diesel anyway (or only extremely rarely) but they are cheaper to run.

The game's fuel economy ratings are deceptive. Extremely so. The way it works is that your fuel bill is proportional to the total train weight multiplied by the economy rating. The economy scale is linear, so a rating of 4 (Above average) has 20% lower fuel costs than a rating of 5 (Average) if both trains weigh the same.

The thing is that diesel and electric locos are usually substantially lighter than the big steamers, and that makes them cheaper to run even if the nominal fuel rating is the same. As a rough example, something like the Deltic will be around 100 "tons" for loco weight, while the Pacific is around 300, and the Big Boy is up over 600. Consist weight for D era freight is a maximum of 333 "tons" (7 x freight cars + 53 for caboose) so if your loco is up around 300 that means your total is over 600, compared to the diesel which totals about 400 pulling the same consist.

IOW, with the same economy rating the Deltic will have around 2/3 the fuel bill of the Pacific. And it has a better rating.

Short version: do not trust the basic charts. They lie. Prodigiously.

I see that. I think your input is insightful. Still in-game I've purchased a diesel loco and compared it with my steam H10 and U1 classes running roughly the same distances. I looked straight at the fuel and maintenance charts at the lower right corner of the screen, and there's basically little difference between these two steam models and the earliest two America diesel trains. Both of them pumped out roughly 40-60k per annum in fuel costs.

So I wasn't looking just at the chart, anyway, but I didn't know the exact formula for fuel costs. Is there any way to see how much each individual model weighs?

I know the Challenger and the Big Boy just eat TONS of fuel, but the medium workhorse steam models for America and Europe are far more economical.

Overall it's a close call. I would welcome more inputs on this issue by our experienced forumers.

[Gumboots]

Weights are set in the .car files for locos, tenders and cargo cars (Data/EngineTypes folder). You need a hex editor to read the .car files, but if you don't want to mess with hex editors RoR and I have made several spreadsheets. These have all the weights for steamers in them, but personally I haven't added weights for diesel and electrics due to not using them (I like things that go choof).

Hex editors aren't hard to use for basic stuff, providing you get one with a built-in floats-to-normal-numbers converter, and the weights are just the last four bytes in the .car file.

[Firefly 2-2-2]

Weights are set in the .car files for locos, tenders and cargo cars (Data/EngineTypes folder). You need a hex editor to read the .car files, but if you don't want to mess with hex editors RoR and I have made several spreadsheets. These have all the weights for steamers in them, but personally I haven't added weights for diesel and electrics due to not using them (I like things that go choof).

Hex editors aren't hard to use for basic stuff, providing you get one with a built-in floats-to-normal-numbers converter, and the weights are just the last four bytes in the .car file.

Hey can I have some of that? Thanks.

[Gumboots]

Spreadsheet? Sure. I can't remember where I posted it so here it is again (.ods and .xls formats).

This has lotsa stuff in it, most of which is custom loco stats for use with a complete revamp of the cargo scale and new locomotives, which is probably a bit much for you at the moment.

Just check out the "Loco stats" sheet for default 1.05 and 1.06 steamers (there is one example each for diesel and electric too) and the first rows of the "Cargo weights" sheet for default cargo weights.

The speed calculations are another thing the game lies about. By testing, we found that the stats pop-up is giving speeds for consists that are twice the weight of the actual consists in that period. So, I reverse-engineered the game's formula for speed vs grade vs consist. That's what the other sheets in this monster do. You can enter any loco stats and any consist weight, and find out how fast your train can go up any grade.

[Firefly 2-2-2]

Spreadsheet? Sure. I can't remember where I posted it so here it is again (.ods and .xls formats).

This has lotsa stuff in it, most of which is custom loco stats for use with a complete revamp of the cargo scale and new locomotives, which is probably a bit much for you at the moment.

Just check out the "Loco stats" sheet for default 1.05 and 1.06 steamers (there is one example each for diesel and electric too) and the first rows of the "Cargo weights" sheet for default cargo weights.

The speed calculations are another thing the game lies about. By testing, we found that the stats pop-up is giving speeds for consists that are twice the weight of the actual consists in that period. So, I reverse-engineered the game's formula for speed vs grade vs consist. That's what the other sheets in this monster do. You can enter any loco stats and any consist weight, and find out how fast your train can go up any grade.

Very nice job doing this! Am giving a look at it right now.

[RulerofRails]

In general Diesel should be the choice except in high density areas where Electric might be interesting. A big advantage that Diesels and Electrics have over Steamers is that they don't need Water stops. They can do more work in the same amount of time.

There is no hard and fast rule. The easier level you play on, the less that fuel and maintenance costs matter. What you will find in many of the PopTop scenarios: a choice of "Electric", is often a sign that electric track is cheaper than normal.

[Gumboots]

They don't need water stops, but they do need sand stops if they are running on grades. The result is that they can do more work than steamers on flat terrain, but they can't do more work than steamers if the terrain is graded at 3% or more.

[RulerofRails]

An average 3% grade is what I would classify as a mountain. Also, a train can run at full speed down a grade when it's empty on sand. Reliability doesn't drop if sand runs out as it does when water does.

Solumsquallus to Crestview on the Chip off the Old Block run. 3% water left. 26% sand. 64% oil. Trains can run downhill almost as fast (because in reality there are some flats and slight up sections that suck some momentum) without sand.

But I will add the caveat that for best reliability, Oil level needs to be kept as high as possible. This is of course a big, big compromise when we are chasing the highest returns possible. Both Diesels and Electrics use Oil at the same rate as steamers so reliability matters more. You have to be careful with some Diesels, but the Electrics typically have good reliability ratings. If you see an Outstanding rating, that's just asking for you to run the thing almost dry.

Let me try to clarify a little that this is an area where advantage is to be found, but as with most things there are some pitfalls/drawbacks.

[Firefly 2-2-2]

Thanks for the tips, RoR!

Yeah in my games I always start in the XIX century and build many service towers. Still I see one or two trains running out of water and sand, especially steamers. Diesels seem to have that advantage, in that you can bulldoze some service towers and still see 100% service. Steamers drink water like, you know, mad.

[Firefly 2-2-2]

... The historicalswap to diesel happened post-WW2 in both Britain and the United States, Although the class QJ and the class A1 are fairly solid steam engines, I found out that by the time the Deltic becomes available it becomes safe to update all your main workhorses to Deltic alone. Same thing with the Shinkansen: if you electrify all flat, high density lines, you can use the Shinkansen as your main Express train while leaving the bulk of the freight to diesels.

There's no harm, however, in keeping the A1's, the U1's and the QJ's all the way until the 80's.

EDIT - Actually, let's say that for the Shinkansen, you gotta build an entirely new rail line just for Express and don't let anything else but high speed trains run on it. That's historical.