Cargo & Industry fixes for 1.06

[Gumboots]

I honestly hate the more General stuff. I like it when you know exactly what a cargo is and where it goes. I don't like it when a cargo goes into 50 different things at any given time and you have to pick and choose which ones you feed and which ones you leave to whither and die. Plus why change toys at all? So long as you feed the factory with the cargo it needs it'll always pays good money.

Am inclined to agree with this.

[AdmiralHalsey]

I honestly hate the more General stuff. I like it when you know exactly what a cargo is and where it goes. I don't like it when a cargo goes into 50 different things at any given time and you have to pick and choose which ones you feed and which ones you leave to whither and die. Plus why change toys at all? So long as you feed the factory with the cargo it needs it'll always pays good money.

Am inclined to agree with this.

Glad someone else does. I've found that if you build the factory itself once it becomes available you can make your money back in anywhere from 2-5 years depending on how close it is to a lumber supply and how big the city you put it in is.(Always try for a 3 star or bigger one since the house demand for toys in them alone normally keeps the price in the immediate vicinity of the factory yellow.)

[Gumboots]

Just thinking about Toys some more: it's easy to make money out of them when the factory will accept timber, but often it falls down once the input changes to plastic. A lot of maps have oil in short supply, and it's often chewed up by other industries. If the Toy Factory stays, perhaps other inputs should be accepted in later scenarios. Steel is one possibility. Textiles are another.

[AdmiralHalsey]

Just thinking about Toys some more: it's easy to make money out of them when the factory will accept timber, but often it falls down once the input changes to plastic. A lot of maps have oil in short supply, and it's often chewed up by other industries. If the Toy Factory stays, perhaps other inputs should be accepted in later scenarios. Steel is one possibility. Textiles are another.

Textiles are the better option IMO. You see more stuffed animals then steel toys nowadays.

[RulerofRails]

I honestly hate the more General stuff. I like it when you know exactly what a cargo is and where it goes. I don't like it when a cargo goes into 50 different things at any given time and you have to pick and choose which ones you feed and which ones you leave to whither and die. Plus why change toys at all? So long as you feed the factory with the cargo it needs it'll always pays good money.

I can completely understand that being from the younger generation makes Toys more important to you. I believe the origins of the idea to change them came from the "Goods" cargo only representing a small amount of what it could. I agree that trying to use many general cargoes is bad, but don't you think that we need a couple like Packed Food and Goods to represent all the varied consumer products?
Unfortunately, from a realism point of view Toys is not a high-volume cargo, that's why I suggested renaming the current "Goods" cargo to Metal Parts and Toys renamed to Goods. We could still have a Toy Factory that produces Goods from recipes like 1 Rubber + 2 Lumber = 3 Goods, 1 Plastic = 1 Goods, and potentially others including 1 Electronics + 2 Plastic later on.

To have a general cargo like Goods I think we should have more than one way to make it. Ideas for more industries that could make Goods include a Printing Press (1 Dye + 2 Paper), Pottery Maker (1 Dye + 2 Ceramics), a low-volume Jeweler using Ignots, a Shoe Factory using Rubber + Clothing (later maybe straight from plastic?) and an Appliance Maker (1 Electronics + 2 Metal Parts). I am sure there are other industries that may work better as well. To keep this sensible I think an output of 2 per year (allowing an upgrade to 4) would be necessary for these industries. This is just an idea and I understand if you don't like it.

You said you don't want to have cargoes going into 50 different things. How many different paths for industries do you think we should have? Currently Steel has 1 method of production and 5 industries use it to make something else. Even with the high output of Steel Mills there isn't enough to go round, but to use the full-potential of a cargo we should have maybe 3?

I am such a slow writer! You guys have posted much more while I have been writing. I am not trying to say that the current Toy Factory doesn't make money nicely (after all most industries do that when set up right) or that Toys has to be the thing that is replaced. Liking simpler cargo chains is ok. Trying to get them balanced should be the goal here. How much have you guys played with the more complicated cargo chains that were introduced in 1.06? For example the late Machine Shop recipe of 1 Plastic + 1 Ceramic + 1 Electronics = 2 Machinery. This is pretty tough to supply, tougher than even some things in TM.

Part of the idea on the Metal Parts front was to try to get it down to a 2 input industry but still able to involve Ignots as an optional ingredient at the Tool and Die such as (1 Ignots + 2 Steel = 3 Metal Parts). Obviously this is in the earlier years replacing the Steel + Oil + Ignots chain and follows up on what I have done in adding Machinery "boost" demands at the logging camp, mines, and quarry that enable an increase in production similar to Fertilizer at the farms. This would make machinery easier to make as the Ignots would be optional. I haven't thought too much of fixes for the later years, but would make them 2-input. Maybe two separate chains (Plastic + Electronics and Ceramic + Electronics). Metal Parts doesn't have to be the name either if you know of something better. I am doing my best here to try to explain the big picture of this idea and how it could work. The details can always be adjusted later. What do you guys think of this considering the whole picture?

PS. Limiting the production of Goods to 4 in an upgraded industry as well as requiring mostly 2-input chains should prevent oversupply.

[AdmiralHalsey]

I honestly hate the more General stuff. I like it when you know exactly what a cargo is and where it goes. I don't like it when a cargo goes into 50 different things at any given time and you have to pick and choose which ones you feed and which ones you leave to whither and die. Plus why change toys at all? So long as you feed the factory with the cargo it needs it'll always pays good money.

I can completely understand that being from the younger generation makes Toys more important to you. I believe the origins of the idea to change them came from the "Goods" cargo only representing a small amount of what it could. I agree that trying to use many general cargoes is bad, but don't you think that we need a couple like Packed Food and Goods to represent all the varied consumer products?
Unfortunately, from a realism point of view Toys is not a high-volume cargo,

Not every product needs representation. This is where the balance between realism, gameplay and fun all come into effect. As for toys not being a high-volume cargo you've obviously never owned a toy factory before the plastics requirement happens. They can make 500K a year easily if you put it in the right spot.

[Hawk]

Rubber
Rubber is shipped directly to the auto plant, and tires are eliminated as a cargo and the cargo slot is used for something of more use.

I'm not too keen on that idea.

I have an idea to help out Rubber as a cargo. According to Wikipedia, roughly 70% of Rubber is used to make tires. Rubber -> Tires is a straight conversion, so maybe we should be thinking of about more ways to use tires as auto plants are not the only places that use them in real life. In fact, I believe most of them are used elsewhere, so why don't we make a municipal building called a Garage or something like that demanding say 2 Tires, 1 Diesel, 1 Metal Parts. Adding a demand to the Military Depot would also make sense.

Yes! Shipping tires to other industries sounds a bit better than eliminating it. Just as long as it doesn't hurt the auto industry.
Other industries demanding tires would mean more rubber availability in maps, and having other industries demand rubber would only add to that.

(I do wish Hawk would be more emotional about cheese, especially canned cheese. )

Just the thought of cheese coming from a can is enough to gag me.

I'm back to work and will reply more fully later. And, hey Hawk, after the coming Apocalypse is over, I'll save a can of cheese for you; you'll probably like it by then.

I find the thought unimaginable.

A slice of canned cheese, with some canned spam. Maybe they can freeze dry bread. Just add water and it'll be a fresh, tasty sandwich. If that's the meal to look forward to after the Apocolypse, I'm not sure I'll want to make it out alive!

Here! Here!

[Blackhawk]

Not every product needs representation. This is where the balance between realism, gameplay and fun all come into effect. As for toys not being a high-volume cargo you've obviously never owned a toy factory before the plastics requirement happens. They can make 500K a year easily if you put it in the right spot.

I think RoR was referring to high-volume in regards to realistically you don't see a train hauling loads of just toys. Now in the game, they can be high-volume as they are relatively easy to produce toys (at least early in the game).

I don't like it when a cargo goes into 50 different things at any given time and you have to pick and choose which ones you feed and which ones you leave to whither and die.

To some extent, I think deciding where to send a cargo is part of the strategy involved in the game. If the resources are limited on a map, then deciding which industry might give you the best return on your money could make a difference in winning the scenario.
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In regards to the multiple industries producing goods. I do think it depends how many additional industries will be created. When it was just a cannery, printing press, and jeweler, I was thinking cannery = packed foods (cheese), printing press = goods, and jeweler = valuables. This way there would be additional industries, but they all wouldn't be making goods and the supply of cargoes would still be spread out.

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A quick google of some canned cheese, and apparently Kraft was going to move their canned cheese facilities from Australia to the Middle East at one point. They also say it's cheddar cheese, but it allegedly tastes like american cheese. The Bega brand of canned cheese may taste a little better and may have more cheddar taste to it.

[RulerofRails]

Not every product needs representation. This is where the balance between realism, gameplay and fun all come into effect. As for toys not being a high-volume cargo you've obviously never owned a toy factory before the plastics requirement happens. They can make 500K a year easily if you put it in the right spot.

I think RoR was referring to high-volume in regards to realistically you don't see a train hauling loads of just toys. Now in the game, they can be high-volume as they are relatively easy to produce toys (at least early in the game).

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. I have pushed the current industries so far as to have 150M of industry profits in one year playing Arop's Deep South 1.06 map once Aluminum and Chemicals became available. To me just because a particular industry makes a lot of money doesn't seem a good reason to keep it. For better or worse RT3 is skewed towards industry. Us human players can plan and build a much more efficient economy than the computer does randomly (map makers can influence this a fair bit in the right direction but not completely). Making this large industrial economy is part of the fun of the game and gives railroads many more products to haul. From my experience there is much more potential for industry profits than freight hauling profits on a normal map. RT3 is supposed to be a train game, not an industry-profit fest. As everybody knows from the current 2-input industries they make trains more useful as a compromise is needed when placing an industry. If we can make trains and setting their routes a bit more important for the industrial economy without over-complicating things, I would be really happy.

In regards to the multiple industries producing goods. I do think it depends how many additional industries will be created. When it was just a cannery, printing press, and jeweler, I was thinking cannery = packed foods (cheese), printing press = goods, and jeweler = valuables. This way there would be additional industries, but they all wouldn't be making goods and the supply of cargoes would still be spread out.

The beauty I can see in the multiple industries making Goods idea is that there is potential for someone to come along in say a year or two and say I want to make an industry for 1.07. They could make a nice building and it would fit and make sense. We wouldn't have to make many at the start. Also, map creators could choose what industries are going to make Goods on their map, specific to that location. (Shouldn't be too many unless it's a map of China!) If that doesn't leave enough supply, the ports could be used to supply Goods representing imports. Obviously, the current Tool and Die Function of making Goods from Steel, Aluminum, or Plastic could easily be used on any map with a build-able warehouse.

Probably, you guys know about this already, but often when I have seen the Dairy Processor doing poorly the culprit has been the Milk supply. Specifically, getting Milk to sit there long enough to be converted into Cheese. Milk is a higher value cargo ($200) so it moves fairly quickly. Also houses have a relatively high 0.03 per year demand. So they will build up a demand for Milk pretty fast and even a lone house out in the country can attract a fair bit of Milk. But the main thing is that a train comes to town and sees a nice profit hauling Milk to its next destination so it loads up and spreads the Milk around. An erratic supply like this causes swings in profitability. To some degree, Produce going to the Distillery suffers the same fate, but the lower price of Produce moderates it. Because Cheese isn't a high-volume cargo this difficulty actually seems realistic to me at the moment, but if Cheese becomes Packed Food to allow a Cannery maybe we should decide if a small adjust of Milk demand or pricing is desired.

[Blackhawk]

I should have mentioned in my earlier post originally I was thinking the printing press would have an output of 3 a year (6 upgraded). Although that could be changed to be lower too.

With your idea of an output of only 2 a year, I wonder how much that will create demand and use up the resources. Part of me would be almost tempted to just make the industry 4 a year, and make it a non-upgradable industry.

Depending on how many slots are left available I could see someone in the future adding another method of making goods or something similiar to that. I do agree that we can have multiple ways to make some, the scenario creater should hopefully then take it into their own hands and decide what the best industries to use for their map are, rather than allowing every single possible industry.

The dairy processor issue: I may have seen that before, but I don't think I see it often. Milk's base price is 110, Cheese's is 235. So a creamery in a big town with a high demand and price for milk, should still create some decent profits. I may not have seen this crop up much compared to you because I'm relatively conservative on the number of trains I buy. So it's likely I wasn't hauling the milk away for a small increase in profit as other cargoes had higher profit margins, but that's just a guess.

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Ok, at this point I think we need to focus on what cargoes/industries we want. The details of their production amounts can come later.

A list of possible cargoes that we could rename or use differently:
~4465Ceramics
~4467Concrete
~4513Rock
These 3 are interconnected and dependent on how the cement and ceramics chain should end up working out.
~4469Crystals -Could be connected to the above cargoes if it becomes sand. Otherwise this could become anything.

~4494Medicine -Currently demanded at houses and hospitals. It should likely become something more substantial than just chemicals = meds
Cheese - Possible remains cheese, or becomes packed foods.
Goods - Listed here because there will remain a cargo named goods (whether it's this or toys). But additional industries will likely produce goods.
Toys - Becomes valuables/luxuries/metal parts or likely something more useful than just toys.

Cargoes Possible to change but Less Likely:
Tires - This cargo will likely stay, but if desperate for a slot and better ideas come along it could be dropped and places that demand tires could just demand rubber instead. Possibly increase the demand for tires.
Uranium - Likely stays. It is a later game cargo with only 1 use. Possibly add an additional use at the hospital or weapons factory.
Waste - Doesn't appear until around 1987. Recycling plant appears in 1990.
Dyes - Also less likely to change as they are fairly well worked into the industries, but could potentially be replaced with chemicals.

New Cargo -- May or may not work. Might not be worth risking.

[Hawk]

Personally I would prefer tires to stay. Auto Plants don't create tires from rubber. They buy the tires.

[Blackhawk]

Right, I'm fine with tires staying. I just threw it out there as cargoes that have fewer uses and could be easier to change. I think I'd remove waste before I removed tires.

[OilCan]

Allow me to bring up the subject of the rubber-tire-auto chain again.

It seems that the consensus of posts is to keep the rubber-tire-auto chain (which is my choice as well) but to seek more demand for rubber &/or tires.
Rubber to tires: There is no getting around the fact that rubber is used mostly for tires, all other realistic uses for rubber are minor; too minor to make it a requirement in an existing RT3 industry and/or in a new industry.
It seems that the only practical option is to continue allowing tires to be the sole RT3 industry demand for rubber, plus any demand created by the map maker in ports / warehouses.

Said another way, the most practical option is to leave the rubber to tire chain unchanged.

Unlike rubber, there are options for increasing the demand for tires: at retail shops, at schools (buses), at a ‘garage’ as RoR recommended. The creation of an aero industry plant has been suggested as new demand source for tires. (I wrongly suggested recycling not fully thinking that one does not buy a new tire and then immediately recycle it; unless they work for the government.)

I would strongly recommend adding new demands for tires.

[Blackhawk]

Okay, an update on progress:

Currently, I'm working on removing the demand for machinery from the 1.06 industries and industries with added cargo recipes. (auto plant, brewery, distillery, etc). [I also changed breweries/distilleries from demanding ceramics to using them in their cargo recipe to see how that behaves.] Then I'll use the 1.05 industry files for the remaining industries. I'll swap in some .bca files RoR sent me on the raw material industries with their own demand/production chain for machinery and see if I can tweak those some to remain profitable while producing more raw materials and using up some machinery. If this works right it should give machinery a purpose that may make it work the effort of creating machinery.

I'll find somewhere else that can become a demand for tires. Whether it is the school, retail, construction firm, or a new municipal industry like a garage.

After getting the machinery issue worked out, I'll probably move into trying to figure out what the cargo chains will end up being so those can be tested. With the number of changes being made, it may be easier to make changes to a 1.05 version of RT3 rather than a 1.06 for purposes of patching.

[Gumboots]

After getting the machinery issue worked out, I'll probably move into trying to figure out what the cargo chains will end up being so those can be tested. With the number of changes being made, it may be easier to make changes to a 1.05 version of RT3 rather than a 1.06 for purposes of patching.

How do you figure that? It'll have to be done on a 1.06 base anyway, unless you want to lose all the other improvements that were added to 1.06 (ship at loss, etc, etc).

[Blackhawk]

To clarify, the 1.06 exe would be used, but rather than installing on top of the 1.06 files, we could try installing on top of the 1.05 so we wouldn't have to deal with extra industries or locomotives that might not get used, like the customs house, or furnace. Obviously a test install will need to be done to make sure all the changes you mention were in the 1.06 exe file and not elsewhere in the installation.

[Gumboots]

Ah gotcha. I can see the logic there.

[AdmiralHalsey]

I think RoR was referring to high-volume in regards to realistically you don't see a train hauling loads of just toys. Now in the game, they can be high-volume as they are relatively easy to produce toys (at least early in the game).

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. I have pushed the current industries so far as to have 150M of industry profits in one year playing Arop's Deep South 1.06 map once Aluminum and Chemicals became available. To me just because a particular industry makes a lot of money doesn't seem a good reason to keep it. For better or worse RT3 is skewed towards industry. Us human players can plan and build a much more efficient economy than the computer does randomly (map makers can influence this a fair bit in the right direction but not completely). Making this large industrial economy is part of the fun of the game and gives railroads many more products to haul. From my experience there is much more potential for industry profits than freight hauling profits on a normal map. RT3 is supposed to be a train game, not an industry-profit fest. As everybody knows from the current 2-input industries they make trains more useful as a compromise is needed when placing an industry. If we can make trains and setting their routes a bit more important for the industrial economy without over-complicating things, I would be really happy.

Again this is where the balance between fun and realism is. Taking out a money making cargo that while it wouldn't get its own car in RL isn't necessarily a good thing. Plus if we really wanted to make this realistic you shouldn't even be able to buy half the industries in the game.

[RulerofRails]

Again this is where the balance between fun and realism is. Taking out a money making cargo that while it wouldn't get its own car in RL isn't necessarily a good thing. Plus if we really wanted to make this realistic you shouldn't even be able to buy half the industries in the game.

Ok, obviously you love Toys and that's fine. And, yes, I realize that this is an industrial economy game as well. The idea about making Goods a bigger part of the game is not my original idea in any way. I got this from gleaning the forum and multiple people have wished for one or even two new types of high-end goods with various names (Merchandise, Luxury Goods, Consumer Goods, etc.). Then I saw this and was not too keen on having one type of "Goods" being converted to another, for example, Goods to Merchandise. That seems very abstract to me, so I was thinking a bit and had this idea to try to incorporate their wishes. Whether Toys stays or not is not up to me and this is not even the main reason we are trying to do this.

The main reason for doing this update is to make better use or re-vamp the 1.06 cargoes that seem wrong (hauling Concrete around by rail) or are often virtually useless (Crystals, the current Chemicals > Medicine conversion). What would be good is any ideas and suggestions how to make Rock > Cement make more sense than being a one-stop cargo. Also, what to do with Silica/Sand > Glass and make it an interesting, useful part of the game. Also the whole Ingot/Machinery/Electronics chain seems quite complicated and should probably be changed to 2-input conversion and needs to be changed to make Electronics without the soon-to-be-renamed Crystals. Some ideas have been posted, but this is a difficult fix to implement and any new ideas as well as feedback on the current ones would be great.

PS. On the old H & P site at the bottom of this page there are some ideas about cargoes/industries: http://hawkdawg.com/rrt/rrt3/hp/h-c.htm. Maybe these were some of the ideas that went towards making 1.06?

[AdmiralHalsey]

Again this is where the balance between fun and realism is. Taking out a money making cargo that while it wouldn't get its own car in RL isn't necessarily a good thing. Plus if we really wanted to make this realistic you shouldn't even be able to buy half the industries in the game.

Ok, obviously you love Toys and that's fine.

I like the money the cargo makes not the cargo itself. If they replaced it with an equally valuable cargo i'd be fine with them doing so.