New Feature Idea - Level/raise land

[Beancounter]

Thanks to Grandma Ruth for suggesting a poll.

The game already has a bulldozer that allows you to level buildings.

What would you think of a new feature that would allow you to level, raise or lower land?

This would be an "in-game" feature (not the editor) with associated costs and trade-offs (to be discussed in detail if enough people like the idea)

[edbangor]

I like the idea, especially if you can create 'cuttings' through the lower hills rather than having some of the overly silly short tunnels the game normally creates.

The only question would be, to ask if it would create smooth lowering (ie it would also lower the tiles surrounding the one you want to lower) or if it would turn that tile into a cutting with sharp sides as would be more the usual case (if so could we have land sides as well, or is that just pushing my luck!)

[OilCan]

Are you thinking of a tool like in SimCity games? That would be helpful.

[Beancounter]

The only question would be, to ask if it would create smooth lowering (ie it would also lower the tiles surrounding the one you want to lower) or if it would turn that tile into a cutting with sharp sides as would be more the usual case

I was thinking of "a cutting with sharp sides". This would allow precise control over the area you wanted to alter. Although, the ability (option) to level/raise multiple tiles at once would be good for large area alterations.

[Beancounter]

Are you thinking of a tool like in SimCity games? That would be helpful.

Yep, that's right! Simcity was the inspiration for this idea.

[Barney]

Well it is more reality based. If you ever go to DC, you will see houses that are 4 stories tall, but only 2 stories above the street. This happened when the B&O as well as the Pennsy filled whole areas so the rails where at a perfect slope. In DC, you walk along the sidewalk and suddenly you have a railing. If you look down, you see the lower 2 floors as well as the parking lot for the building.

[edbangor]

I was thinking of "a cutting with sharp sides". This would allow precise control over the area you wanted to alter. Although, the ability (option) to level/raise multiple tiles at once would be good for large area alterations.

So in effect it is like the 'Ocean' tool in the editor which reduces the tile to ground level (0) without touching those around it, which is how I created the deep gully in "Ed Land" and the inactive volcano in "The Hub".

Of course, if you don't want it at 0 then there's the lake tool which can be used to create something at different hieghts, which , actually is something you are going to need rather than zero.

There should be a limit to how many levels you can flatten, or raise, something in the game to prevent building a cutting right through a mountian, as that would make tunnels pointless.

Oh, and while we're at it, if this is bought into the game, then there should be a way to turn off the option in the editor (and another for tunnels and suspension bridges).

[WPandP]

I voted in favor, but the curmudgeon in me says that there just isn't any way we're gonna get the kind of tool you're thinking of in RRT3. It was a feature that was high on my list when we were scoping out Rail Mogul, and I took the time to think through how the roadbed profile would have to function in order to make intelligent cuts and fills on the terrain model. Basically, it translated into the track model including a bit of a subroadbed, which could deform to meet the raw terrain as needed, which is a much different approach to how it is done in RRT3. In RRT3, the track model always sits above the raw terrain, and if this exposes a lot of "air" below the rails, then there is a kind of subroadbed that stretches downward to fill the gap. But I was going after a "balanced cut and fill" model that places the railhead a little further down and does as much stretching down (fill) as it does warping upward (cut) to create the terrace on which the track runs. The difference between these paradigms is subtle, but telling: the way RRT3 does it precludes ever cutting the raw terrain. The game engine simply has no way to do such excavations.

The post office trick isn't actually cutting the terrain, producing steep-sided cliff faces. Rather, it is warping the raw terrain into a new shape. This is why carefully graded tracks get messed up in late game due to building spawning; it would be preferable to have laid track stay put and impose a cut or fill through the terrain if that terrain gets later warped. The paradigm I was envisioning would allow for this, but in RRT3 there just isn't any way to change the way the track is dependent on the terrain.

I don't think I'd be all that thrilled about a tool that just creates level terraces (as the Post Office trick does now); rather, I'd want a tool that could create the targeted maximum slope that I am seeking, cutting as necessary then employing tunnels or bridges when you get to a threshold of vertical separation. But that's a much more complex tool, both to create and to use, and simply not possible in the RRT3 game engine, I'm afraid.

[Thunder Mnt RR]

wow so many problems with the tool already and it hasn't even been made and produced

[Grandma Ruth]

There should be a limit to how many levels you can flatten, or raise, something in the game to prevent building a cutting right through a mountian, as that would make tunnels pointless.

Wouldn't it be better to make the cost exorbitant? In real life, is there anything to stop a company building a cutting right through a mountain, except the cost? It should be up to the player's discretion if they want to spend that amount of money, as it is now with regard to tunnels and bridges. Isn't it part of the skill of the game?
Look at the Channel Tunnel - people said it was a complete waste of money, just another "prestige" Anglo-French project like Concord but as far as I know, it's making money and providing a good transport link now. So sometimes you might just have to be bold and spend the money up front!

[tfinvold]

There is a way around this problem even while in game right now. First you'll want to pause the game but you can use SHIFT + E to essentially enter the editor back door while in mid game play (in single player) then you can grade the terrain then SHIFT + E to get back into the game economy and regular game play and even when switched back to regular game play you'll save your changes in the regular save game file and as long as you've left editor mode it will leave no changes to the original map. Yeah it's sort of hacky and it would be pretty odd to use the editor to your advantage but the truth is sometimes when your track looks terrible and you need to smooth it out using the editor tools to fix things around the track and get rid of that "lumpy bumpy" non sense that plagues all users in RT3. Grading routes through steep mountain routes can be a fun challenge I'll go through mountains and see what's the minimalist amount of terrain modification I can do while keeping grades under 3. Tunnels can also be set up better by leveling the terrain right before a big mountain so your tunnel won't be all funky and steep in the front.

I do get what you mean though a "paid" terrain grader like what's seen in SimCity would be a lot better because in all reality its not free to level the terrain. One way to get around this "free leveling" is to set up the scenario to have more expensive mountainous track building (to offset the cost of free leveling done within the editor) In all honesty most real world tracks rarely exceed 2.5 grade. On extreme rare occasions its sometimes 3.0 or 3.5. So its ridiculous the game doesn't automatically stop you from building track that exceeds 4.5 in any circumstance or least auto level the terrain when track laying. The steepest grade in the USA is Saluda grade at 4.7 and it's really the only track like that and as far as I know its been closed down.

[obertran]

I agree with this as long as this tool is within what is a constructive reality.

[AT41B]

Not a reply, but just an extra thought. Have you ever noticed entering a tunnel (when building) at one altitude and come out the other side at a much much greater height. Question, at what grade (3, 3.5, 4, 4.5 etc ) does the game program determine the point of exiting the mountain?

[Gumboots]

I have a theory that it was coded to deliberately choose the most inconvenient grade possible under the circumstances. This seems to fit with the observed behaviour.

I'll use the editor to smooth out lumps caused by building placement, or if I see any broken rivers or similar things during play. Otherwise I just find a way to lay track how I want it. I quite enjoy a bit of a track laying challenge. It's boring when you can just go in a straight line to every city.

If you want to flatten an area and don't want to use the editor, post offices are the standard trick. That way you have to pay something for your "earthworks", so it doesn't feel like a cheat so much. They will only flatten things though, and will not do smoothing.

Edit: Oh and if I'm at the stage of the game where cash isn't an issue, I have also used hotels or whatever else to flatten lumps. They cost more per unit, but have a bigger footprint so you need fewer of them if you are doing a lot of flattening. You can use any building you like, really.

[RulerofRails]

IIRC the effect of seeded buildings on the terrain was lessened by one of the patches, so imagine how bad it used to be.

The Post Office is an old trick which works. IMO, what is probably most powerful is the Maintenance shed. The caveat here is that once any station or service facility is placed, that exact spot is occupied for ever. I found this out the hard way. You can still level entire cells with it though, it can be a problem if you were doing that to build a Steel Mill etc. there.

I don't enjoy going to the editor and grading/smoothing, that's just too tedious for me. My routes don't have to be that perfect to maintain my belief in their "reality." I will however consider going in there on the very rare occasion that I placed a station that I wasn't expecting to jump height: it has insane grades on the approach/es. There are two options I prefer over using Shift+E: save the game first so revert OR use a service tower to "hold" the track level by being placed just a little way away from where the station will be built. If I know it might be a problem, most of the time I save myself the trouble. It's just the rare ones that catch me out. Actually, the service tower trick is very useful to get decent approaches for maintenance sheds too.

There is the option of the "Terrain Leveler" which may have been formulated partly as a result of this thread (similar vintage). This is a very cheap "building" that is really more of a "smoother" than a leveler. I would agree with comments that it's too cheap. In practice it can only do so much, that's why I call it a "smoother." You can find it on this page: http://hawkdawg.com/rrt/rrt3/Xtras/Buil ... ctures.htm.