Noraway (Norwegen) [Norway]

[RulerofRails]

I don't know if I should comment yet, as I only played this a couple of years so far. I did notice some things, I don't know if they were in any way intentional, if so they are at the designer's discretion. On this particular play, I started with a direct link from Nykoping to Karlstad. I had a port in Nykoping and one warehouse in both Uppsala and Stockholm. My plan was to have Nykoping as a collection depot for the long haul over to Karlstad (if the cargo had greater demand at Nykoping then I would find it acceptable for the cargo to "go to sea" as I was already hauling it once.) But, after only one year the Nykoping Port disappeared and upset my plan . At the same time a port appeared in Stockholm. The problem is that the Stockholm Port appeared right at the edge of my station and it will now drag all my cargo out to sea and wreck my demand so cargo wont want to travel to my "collection depot" (my station in Nykpoing).

In fact, I would be very careful with seeded ports in a scenario as it is so hard for a player to capture their cargo if the prices (as is often the case) are higher in the ocean so that cargo decides to "go to sea". Of course, this doesn't make the scenario unplayable or unwinnable. I normally go into a map assuming that haul goals are meant to be legitimate between towns with collection points ok, but otherwise no strategies that deliberately inflate the load count. Seeded ports that may spring up anytime really force me to at least build multiple stations to cover the new ports, or worse still, special stations to FISH the cargo out of the ocean! The same is partially true of seeded warehouses (one in Karlstad appeared outside my station boundaries), but it is more annoying than serious. Unfortunately, for me this wrecks the honest hauls object I aim for as I have to shuffle that cargo around to be useful for profit. (BTW, I am normally super careful with station placement when warehouses and ports are involved to both capture cargo most effectively and also try to get demand at the best price I can.)

My suggestion for this: keep the critical demands away from the Ports and don't have them on auto-seed. If you are wondering how the ports in Denmark will work without a demand on the coast, the answer is: fine. Thanks to Oilcan's research he shared here (tried to link to his post, but in preview mode I am going to the start of the thread?), we can understand that ports transmit demand across water really well. Even across a great distance of ocean there is very little drop in prices. If necessary, you could make a new type of port (simply passenger terminal maybe?) which will enable cargo to enter and exit the ocean at that point and will also give the ocean a nominal base price you want distant ports to operate at. I suspect the other ports of the supply type will work fine in this case.

As a side-note, I didn't see the 1 Alcohol -> 2 Grain conversion turning a profit. (Maybe it needs to be 1 Alcohol -> 3 Grain to work properly.) I was assuming at this point from the info in the briefing especially that 1,500 loads were required compared to 1,200 of Oil which is in 3x greater supply at Warehouses/Ports, that at least the Brewery was buildable. I could see clever warehouse chain design so that if you ran the Alcohol chain right you could use one load of Alcohol supplied at the warehouse originally to become 4 loads in the end. This is a fun concept and with a limited number of locations (hence limiting maximum supply) for the Alcohol -> Grain conversion it wont become an endless loop with all other Alcohol produced being for domestic consumption.

I see potential on this map as being a different type of challenge, otherwise I wouldn't worry trying to make suggestions for improvement. I love the potential with the Brewery enabled to have a complete loop for Alcohol->Grain->Rice->Alcohol->.... without obvious over-abundance of Alcohol resulting from this. I also like that this map is sparse enough and in the right time period to have great potential for different strategies involving Diesel/Steam/Electric power. As I said, I only played for a little while, so don't know how the obvious cargo price modifiers will play out (Will there be the notorious price-breakouts?). I will soon find out.

[Sugus]

Are these here for testing or are they both ready to go into the archives?

From my point of view we should left them here for - let's say - the next three weeks. Without receiving comments about mistakes within this period, they could/should be moved to the archives.

keep the critical demands away from the Ports

Obviousely that was exaclty NOT the intension of the author -FD-. As I mentioned earlier, I tried to rely on -FD-'s ideas as close as possible.

didn't see the 1 Alcohol -> 2 Grain conversion turning a profit

If the map really had be made by me, you'd find breweries for sure! - among other industries and above all resources.

Nevertheless, thanks for the comments ...

[Hawk]

Are these here for testing or are they both ready to go into the archives?

From my point of view we should left them here for - let's say - the next three weeks. Without receiving comments about mistakes within this period, they could/should be moved to the archives.

You got it.

[RulerofRails]

Ok, well, what can I say. I saw great potential for development of some of the ideas. I hope some people enjoy this map. BTW, what sort of things do you regard as mistakes?

[Sugus]

what sort of things do you regard as mistakes?

e.g. events not being correctly triggered or spelling errors or ...

[RulerofRails]

Played this one to a win in 16 years on Expert. I didn't issue stock or use any custom consists to load up any oil at a loss. I actually ended up with double the number of Alcohol loads than Oil loads. I put effort into route design to maximize Oil haulage, conversely all the Alcohol loads were "natural". Two factors that cause this: Oil has few demands compared to Alcohol being demanded at every city, and the majority of the Oil carloads will end up in the sea. I also only built stations in towns. Even so, clever placement in those towns captured enough of the oil flow along the coastlines that I could fish enough of it from the sea for me to reach the count in 15 years. This is one form of re-hauling exploitation, so I relaxed my standards a little here. I would say I even enjoyed it, so thanks for posting and your efforts with it! The matter of the disappearing Ports and Warehouses solved itself as new ones popped up in their place after playing for 5 years or so.

The goals here actually require the player to make money for bridges and island-hopping connections, so the haulage goals make more sense as there is an incentive to be profitable instead of just setting a run-at-a-loss loop, as is so easy to do in 1.06. By decreasing the amount of cargoes available, the player wants to try to use those few to the best advantage. This is a strategy win in my mind.

There is a single square belonging to a different territory in Denmark near Aarhus. I am pretty sure this isn't intentional? Also the requirement to connect ALL the cities in Denmark wasn't mentioned in the ledger. Having saved and come back to my game, I forgot about this condition from the briefing. A reminder in the ledger would be good. I also found it extremely difficult to put a station in the middle of Trondheim, and ended up just plopping one to the side. Since it is one of the required connections maybe its center shouldn't be a small body of water?

The engine choices here seem really poor once steam is done away with. The only option aside for electrification in the time-span I was playing is the Zephyr, and while I admit to not knowing anything about Norway's engine history it doesn't seem a likely choice. Were the engines FD's choice?

I would suggest making the connection bonuses time dependent. By issuing stock and building small stations it is possible with careful route planning to get two of the bonuses in January 1928. This gives a big head-start, and rewards the best players. I would tend to reward the poorer players later in the game and actually penalize the better players. No one needs the bonuses to start. Maybe make the bonus money only available if the connection is made after a certain date?

Similarly, the tax events require the player to have some cash on hand for them to fire. I saw the tax event once. And I was expecting to see it the next year when I had almost 400 loads hauled one year, But it never came. Then I discovered that you need to be holding a certain amount of cash over year end to be taxed. In my view, saving money is not great strategy especially early in a game where there is no industry to purchase and bonds are enabled. The end of year book adjustments also eat up a large portion of cash. Once again I would modify this good idea slightly to penalize the best strategies instead of only penalizing the less aggressive ones. That's my for now.

[Sugus]

RulerofRails, thanks for your interesting comments. For the final version(s) I'll update the ledger with a reminder concerning "all cities in Danmark", but that's all. I think that the map is playable now in the sense of the author -FD- ... and only this was my goal.

[Sugus]

No complaints, no protests, no insults ... so in the archives with the things!

Here they are:


Please, Hawk, fulfill your calling

[Hawk]

I got them added.

http://hawkdawg.com/rrt/rrt3/rrt3_europe2.php#norway

[Stoneman]

I enjoyed playing this game. Most of the early action occurs in Sweden and it is a nice RR building game, so you can enjoy the building without worrying about the stock market. Whether you start in Malmo or Stockholm depends upon how the ports are distributed at the game opening. Either works. There are some surprises as you go along, but I won't spoil them here.

Now, I would like to go on a trip to Norway to see the scenery illustrated in this game.

Thanks. Cheers. Ed..

[low_grade]

Stumbled upon this rough gem today. Interesting concept! Do the pax/mail warehouses really work? Didn't seem to have any great effect on express numbers.

Started twice, determined to use the cheap electric option, as I suspected keeping costs low would be key. Failed miserably both times. Had an idea! I just passed the time for two years, issuing stock. In the 2nd year I got Prosperity, which seemed to last forever. Still waiting. For what you might ask? Price gradients! Start of the 3rd year built my electric line from Ostersund to Sundsvall. Made $1M, enough in my 4th year to issue $2M in bonds at 8% and reach Stockholm. Nice bonus! Now begins a 3-year phase of expansion and many custom routes. The Be 5/7's are basically disposable at $60k a pop, but I keep rerouting them. I was maybe running 8 at this time. Then I noticed my maintenance bill... I'd neglected maintenance sheds due to no breakdowns/crashes, but it was costing me dearly in maintenance. Well, there's something I'm going to have to find some money for... But first I have another idea, Borgholm! An island with no port, no way for cargo to escape. I dump 40 alcohol and 20 cheese there and let it saturate and spread out, then hauled 8 trains at $800k each back across to Karlskrona. Had to build 3 large stations on the island to grab everything off it, but worth it! Plus the oil price at Borgholm was always $0 even though there was regularly 5 or 6 floating past for an easy pile of money across the bridge to the mainland.

Made me think of RulerofRails and his stacking strategy. This scenario I think is great for practicing and appreciating stacking, and other abuses of the economic system, lol!

By now it's 1934 and the Zephyr is available, and I just made a stack of cash to finance the conversion, not just from Be 5/7's to Zephyrs, but from manual routing to auto consists. So nice! I build a network of 32 Zephyrs across the land and into Sweden, and they made money, even through the recession. The rest of the play was quick, no more attention payed except to experiment with ideas, running on superfast. Won it in 1944, for 16 years on expert.

Yes, this map is a mess, and the strategy is not fine-tuned, but it's different enough to redeem itself and more, this is one of the better scenarios I've played recently, for the way it made me stretch my strategies. I thought about fixing up some of the obvious things like 3 Grain for 1 Alcohol, making sensible paths to connect Sweden. Actually I thought to make it 1 Auto for 1 Alcohol, but that would be Sweden, Norway doesn't make cars, do they? But it would allow for some of the more traditional story events about labor irregularities due to not enough alcohol being delivered to the towns which seed those ports/warehouses... And the burn-track finish... But then I thought, nah, scenario is just fine as-is.

[RulerofRails]

It was awhile since I played this map, before I understood the necessity to reload the map from the Main Menu to truly randomize the seed. If memory serves, starting electric probably doesn't allow enough track to be laid to get a decent start.

In fact, in my "study" of engines I spent a little time looking (failed so far, definitely haven't played all maps available) to find a map that is sensible (faster profit/growth) with electric track unless there is an event that facilitates this (cheaper electric track, cheaper electric engines, disallows other engines, etc.).


I had a quick look and from what I saw, I think you did discover something with the warehouses. Just for everyone's information, the ports/warehouses here are set to CONVERT Passengers to Mail, or Mail to Passengers. It has been confirmed elsewhere that Passenger supply only or Passenger demand only works, same for Mail. But the conversions don't appear to be working for me either.

Industries are tied to their economic square (unable to consume anything outside it). To me it makes sense that in order for a conversion to work*, you have to get the demanded cargo onto the cell. For express cargoes, this would seemingly require building extra stations for Ports/Warehouses, if there's room and IF it's possible as most ports inhabit water cells.

So I tried a test, by going into the editor and converting a port cell to land and placing a small station on it, covering just the port. Sure enough Passengers wanted to go there (Goteborg port). Deliveries were quickly consumed from the map. However, no Mail supply ever showed up.

*For Passenger supply only and Passenger demand only functions this is not a requirement. Also in my test I built a station just covering the port but not on it's economic cell. As expected, Passengers are still attracted there. So, I would conclude that the ports are good for demand, but the stated conversion will never happen.


PS. I'm enjoying your scenario reviews. After awhile you appreciate the more unique setups such as this one for their strategy value. You might have noticed that I gave some suggestions on this map when it was being tested too. Nevertheless it remains a unique map style, and can still be enjoyed.

[low_grade]

Once I've got gold on Expert I don't replay a scenario unless years go by and I forget that I played it already. After trying this one I read the thread with your comments, including being able to get two of the $2M bonuses immediately. But $170k for an H10 that will have high-ish fuel costs... Well, I was only running about 8 engines before 1934 and the Zephyr, so I did feel a little silly paying for all that electrified track when I realized that no, I wasn't going to use the GG1. No breakdowns really makes the Zephyr a superstar, as reliability is normally it's Achille's heel, and a place where the GG1 shines. But then once I connected to Bergen I could ship oil at $60k-$90k per load from all over the map, and I was glad I had been keeping up the electric track, I must've sent 60 Be 5/7's over, in two batches a couple years apart, deleting them when they arrived. Math was great for a $60k engine, I delivered maybe 400 loads of oil for $15M profit, less $3.6M by deleting the locos. Using Zepyrs would have been $12M in locos...

And also I'm stubborn, lol! I was going to make electric work! All I had to do was the unprecedented, let two years of the game go by without doing anything aside from issuing stock. I saw the goal for gold had a 40 year time limit, so I really wasn't worried about passing a couple years on the front end.

It's like this tennis anime I'm watching, Prince of Tennis. A great player only becomes better by facing an opponent who can shut down the player's current strategies, and evolving by developing new strategies to get around this novel obstacle. Not saying I'm a great player, and I certainly don't play optimally, no saving every year and going back several times to try different things. Just one play, straight through, no looking back, until I win or decide I'm not going to win and start again, which doesn't often happen late in a game (it's all about a great start and a solid overall strategy for a map, which is clear in the first few years usually.) But I like finding maps that throw me a curve, rebuffing my initial attempts, forcing me to take a deeper look at what's going on. I'm on to the next one in the list, OC's Norway-Sweden, and though I haven't started it, as a rework of this map it seems to have lost its magic, looks like another ho-hum map. At least there's always OC's colorful events to look forward to...

No, not every map I play is worth commenting on, so I'm glad you've appreciated my recent reviews!

[Gumboots]

Now you've got me curious about this one. I have a bit of a soft spot for Norway anyway. I'd be wanting to do it with steam though, which should be a bit trickier.

[RulerofRails]

You wont like it (probably). Steam is outlawed by "the government" in 1932, 5 years into the game. That's ridiculously early if it's meant to be "realistic".

Then, the only engine available until the Zephyr shows up in June 1934 is the Be 5/7. When I played it the first time I fell into the "trap" to build some electric track because I was really not expecting the Zephyr.

Then, June 1935 we get the GG1*. Then it's NO new engines until 1949, with the Gp7, then finally a new European engine: Class 9100. Obvious European electrics like the E428, E18 are omitted. Which led to me making this statement when I tested it:

The engine choices here seem really poor once steam is done away with.

*low_grade I'm not sure why you didn't see it in your install. I checked in the hex and the loco "GG1" is coded to appear in the scenario. Only possibility I can think of at the moment is that yours has been renamed at decimal position 12 in your GG1.car file. No?

So, I think you are stuck unless you want to modify the map to remove the ban.

Oilcan made a revamped version, and he also fixed the projection of the map the same as you were thinking about doing on the Latvia map. Quality is higher for sure, a great map. FYI it also bans steam but allows diesels such as the Zephyr and F3, and uses a more classic, reliable economic structure, compared to this one which is quite radical by using few cargo types (7 total including pax and mail) and making the player concentrate on those. This isn't realistic either, so why am I complaining about the engines here?

Anyway, I feel this map is good for players who got a bit bored of the classic economic structure and want to play something that will challenge them to change up their strategy. But it's not for everybody.

[Gumboots]

No worries. I can just enable any steamers I feel like using.

[low_grade]

GG1 was available, but come 1934 and the realization that no breakdowns makes the Zephyr about perfect on this map meant I wouldn't be using the GG1, which I will do on other maps for long, flat hauls. I hate breakdowns... Related, made a tweak to my game play today, no caboose until a loco is a year old, duh. Small detail, but important in early years.

[RulerofRails]

Ok. I misunderstood. There's enough bugs that every time the game behaves right I'm happy.

Yes, I also don't use the caboose at first, but I will wait 2 years to add it. And if economy is good and reliability is better than average I might wait longer. However, when I see that Recession notice I will add them right away. Also, I often delay building maintenance facilities (esp. the shed) in the early years, and it works as a strategy for the same reason: young engines are simply much more reliable in those first two years. The plus is that I can expand faster when there is no game specific restriction (limited track, limited access rights, etc.) on connection options.

[Gumboots]

Why add a caboose in a recession? Does economy state affect reliability? If it does, I've never noticed.

[RulerofRails]

Yes. The visible breakdown chance doesn't change, but I'm quite sure that breakdowns and crashes are more likely. This is from repeated observation, I haven't done any scientific-style testing.